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[Ashwraith]

Heyoo, just popping my head back in here (after a long time absent) to slap something up.
I was browsing the Pseudopod (fiction podcast) forums the other day, and stumbled across a comment that, for some reason, really resonated with me. Maybe it's because of all the DAII I've been playing lately. But although DA isn't what the quote is about, I thought it summed up Vengeanders -and how Anders' story is anything but a happy one- quite nicely.

"Oh, give me justice. Give me hot, dark justice, smelling like coals and tasting like copper. Give me justice as it is meant to be: the innocent walking free, the guilty broken so profoundly that they are become innocent once more in their suffering, the punishment fitting the crime. Science fiction and fantasy can do happy endings, and they can do sad endings, but nobody does justice like horror."

(source)



...And with that thought, I'm gonna go pass out.
Curse you, Doomflu.
CURSE YOOOOOOU.

Modifié par Ashwraith, 05 septembre 2011 - 07:03 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

PuppyFlavour wrote...


Aveline is beautiful, at least to me. Man hands and all. Her dark lipstick combined with the very thin, straight, low-hanging eyebrows reminds me of the 1920's make-up fashion:

That's an interesting way of looking at Aveline.

I never thought she was ugly, but then again, my standards of beauty tend to be broad and diverse. I thought she was rather attractive in a grown tomboyish sort of way. She's not your classic stereotypicaly feminine raving beauty, but so what? That gets old. Like I said, there are many different ways to be attractive. Aveline is rugged and strong, but still is undeniably female in her personality. Just a very strong, dominant female, who I think was one of the better written characters in the game.

[Heidenreich]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

If you were really into ASoIaF you'd know it's Brienne, not Brianna! (I'm just teasing, and I had to google to make sure I wasn't making a mistake myself. Also, she's my third or fourth favorite character.)

EH I just can't SPELL, which anyone who's read my stories or any of my posts here should be able to tell at this point.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I like Aveline as well. I remember there was a comic a while ago where Aveline and Varric went to join the unromanceable club, and people were shocked that two companions who were so attractive could end up there.

I think Aveline looks like a female warrior, or at least like the archtypical one. That said, the best female fighter I ever met was tall and lanky, with very subtle curves, mostly straight lines. She had a fairly feminine face, except that her features were more distinct than most girls: stronger nose, sharper cheekbones, large, bright eyes. She had dirty blonde hair with a nice natural tan. When we would fight, the sensei would often have to yell at us to take it down a notch (I wasn't great... I'm short with terrible reach and poor depth perception, but as soon as I feel even a little pain I get vicious... strong and fast. And you do not want to try to grapple me. /cough)

Still, that was all hand-to-hand. The best female heavy weapons fighter I know reminds me of a combination of Aveline, Marigold from Questionable Content, and Brienne from ASoIaF. So yeah, the archetype is pretty solid, I think.

The best sword-and-dagger fencer I ever knew was a girl who was essentially a female Jaime Lannister, but with straight hair rather than curly. Wow, I've known a boatload of female fighters, and I'm not even IN the SCA!

My aunt's always been built as a fighter-type. Whe she was younger she played sports w/ the boys in town and was a lifeguard for years and years. Apparently it was quite the scandal around town, a young lady putting on pants and playing first base on the local baseball team! She fit in quite well in my family though, with a mother that worked. Scandalous! ...Less so once the late 60's and early 70's hit, though.

I think this is a big reason why I love Aveline and Brienne and other "outside the normal gender roll" females so very much. Heck, its a big reason why I get such a kick out of Femanders:P. Thus, it irritates me super when people mod her face to make her pretty. LEAVE AVELINE ALONE! She's pretty just being who she is!

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
(As for where I am: just moved to California, getting internet through my phone, unpacking, getting ready for new job on Tuesday. Eeeeeee.)

Grats on the new job!<3

[Arquen]

19 hours..... did I read that correctly? Anders thread ... what happened?

Was thinking about how Anders escaped so many times, etc. Remember a banter where he talks about a female Templar always being the one who came for him. That he thought maybe she requested to be the one to hunt him down. Some joke about sexual tension, but I wonder... something there? Maybe a joke, maybe a fantasy...

Sure its been mentioned before but just had me thinking. Hee.

[berelinde]

Probably a joke. Based on everything he has been through, he doesn't strike me as the type to enjoy the "naughty templar and the hapless apprentice" role-playing. The absolute loathing in his voice when he teases Aveline about her templar husband (when talking about the various templar/mage sex games) makes me think this really, really bothers him.

[YamiSnuffles]

I'd also assume it's a joke. The usual deflection, Awakening style. I think he enjoys his freedom far to much to have Templars be a secret fantasy. A Templar/mage relationship is far from equal. The Templar holds absolutely all the power in such a relationship. Considering Anders didn't even dare fall in love for fear that the Templars would use that against him, I seriously doubt he would want to hook up with a Templar.

If anything, I would think Anders might have liked the idea of a Templar with unrequited feelings for him. Since he felt nothing for that Templar, he could use their feelings as an advantage. Not that I think he's some sort of heartless manipulator, but in the case of a Templar, I could see him jokingly leading them on in order to get easier treatment while being dragged back to the Circle.

[berelinde]

Your second paragraph is interesting, Yami. It's a much lighter interpretation that got from it, and I thnk I like your version better. Mine has him believing that Rylock pursues him because she is a vindictive female dog who goes above and beyond the demands of duty to inflict misery upon him, even going so far as pursuing him once he is a Grey Warden and legally off the hook. He turns it into a juvenile "I think she has a crush on me" to emphasize how inappropriate her behavior is.

[Heidenreich]

berelinde wrote...

Your second paragraph is interesting, Yami. It's a much lighter interpretation that got from it, and I thnk I like your version better. Mine has him believing that Rylock pursues him because she is a vindictive female dog who goes above and beyond the demands of duty to inflict misery upon him, even going so far as pursuing him once he is a Grey Warden and legally off the hook. He turns it into a juvenile "I think she has a crush on me" to emphasize how inappropriate her behavior is.

Oh that's totally how it is, but I wouldn't put it past Awakening Anders to also get a huge kick out of the idea either. Maybe he would never actually act upon it because its a line he's not quite comfortable crossing, but the idea of using a love-struck templar to get what he wants would at least be an entertaining thought.



Not.. that my Amell did that or anything *coughpoorcullencough*

[tmp7704]

Heidenreich wrote...

as for the mods comment with the characters looking how they were meant to look --- I just do not understand why anyone would change the way a canon character looks. Mod hawke all the way to heck and back if you'd like, but don't ruin perfectly wonderful well developed characters.

I like it for playthrough variety, personally. Without it things can become bit too much like the Groundhog Day.

And i don't really get the whole down-on-knees-devs-made-it-so-it's-zomg-don't-touch-it-canon worship, tbh. If anything, the sweeping changes done between DAO and DA2 to all visuals (character designs included) should drive the point home how little attachment the devs themselves have to these, and they don't view changing them as "ruining" anything.

[berelinde]

Wow, that's an unexpected segue. Going from a discssion about companion cosmetic surgery mods to complaining abot the new elves. Carry on.

[tmp7704]

An unexpected strawman, more like? I'm not sure how pointing out the devs don't feel religious about changing appearance of the game equals complaining about new elves...

[berelinde]

Oh, I don't think the devs care one way or another what we do with the character appearances once we get the game in our hands. The real issue here is whether players feel that the character is still the character if you give Anders black hair and make Aveline look like Barbie. Most of the folks in this thread would say no. If you want to talk about character redesign between games, there are plenty of places to do it.

[tmp7704]

berelinde wrote...

Oh, I don't think the devs care one way or another what we do with the character appearances once we get the game in our hands. The real issue here is whether players feel that the character is still the character if you give Anders black hair and make Aveline look like Barbie. Most of the folks in this thread would say no.

Yes, which was the point. I don't quite get why the players would feel this way when the creators of these characters themselves don't.

If you want to talk about character redesign between games, there are plenty of places to do it.

No, i don't. I'm discussing topic which was apparently fine in this very thread just yesterday, thankyouverymuch.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 septembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[Heidenreich]

Since it was me you quoted in the first place..

tmp7704 wrote...

berelinde wrote...

Oh, I don't think the devs care one way or another what we do with the character appearances once we get the game in our hands. The real issue here is whether players feel that the character is still the character if you give Anders black hair and make Aveline look like Barbie. Most of the folks in this thread would say no.

Yes, which was the point. I don't quite get why the players would feel this way when the creators of these characters themselves don't.

Because it's like re-writing a well established book character. I'll give you an example....

The Author of The Vampire Diaries, L.J.Smith opted to make a TV show out of her books. Now, as a pre-teen I was a huge fan of her books. In the story, Elaina (The main Character) is blond, blue eyed, and an utter icy **** to anyone who doesn't know her on a personal level. The look + the additude.

In the TV adaptation, they cast a brunette girl. This irritates me to -no end-. Why? Because the character was written to be blond. Her baby sister is a toe-head. She looks just like a suposedly long-dead slavic woman who the two love-intrests killed each other over/suposedly pushed her into suiside.

And yet.. brunette. The girl they got to play the character isn't a bad actress. But the change in look utterly ruins the whole thing for me, because for me, Elaina is blond and blue-eyed. Kathrine, who she suposedly looks just like, was blond and blue-eyed.

It.. ruins the whole story for me.


Thus, modding Aveline to be pretty, Anders to have a normal nose, or black hair, or tattos, or eyeliner, or what ever the hell they've managed to do to him.. even modding Fenris, Merrill, or Isabela (NO PANTS, NO WHITE/BLONDE ISABELA OMG) ruins the story for me, and I don't understand why other people would want to do that to these characters.. who are well written and have wonderful and unique faces.


It changes the whole feel of the story, and while some people might (as you said) need it to keep it from going stale, for me, it ruins the whole thing.

[berelinde]

Heidenreich wrote...
It changes the whole feel of the story, and while some people might (as you said) need it to keep it from going stale, for me, it ruins the whole thing.

That's the part I don't get. People say that mods keep the game fresh, but how fresh can it be with the same lines and the same voice actors every time? At that point, swapping out haircolor is not going to help. The real variety comes from choosing different relationship paths and Hawke personalities. It would also come from fan-made campaigns (and some bugfixing!), but that can't happen without a toolset. Of course, I'm a bit weird. I'll play through the game with the same Hawke and only subtle differences in dialogue choices numerous times in my eternal quest for my perfect canon playthrough.

Edit: And Aveline is beautiful. She just isn't Barbie. Thank goodness.

Modifié par berelinde, 06 septembre 2011 - 05:11 .

[esper]

I pretty much feel like Heidenreich described. The persons are written to look, act and speak in a certain way and any change to that which isn't story written bothers me because it ruins the story. I only got over Zevran's change by closing my eyes and say to my self at least he talks like Zev - and I like the new elven design. It was just hard for me to accept such a radical change in Zev, but I did it by saying he looked like that before I just couldn't see it.
I just can't do it with mods, because there is no excuse for making Aveline look barbie pretty or changing Anders nose and hair colour.

[Aggie Punbot]

tmp7704 wrote...

And i don't really get the whole down-on-knees-devs-made-it-so-it's-zomg-don't-touch-it-canon worship, tbh. If anything, the sweeping changes done between DAO and DA2 to all visuals (character designs included) should drive the point home how little attachment the devs themselves have to these, and they don't view changing them as "ruining" anything.

I've got to say that I completely agree with this statement. It's difficult to take the 'purist' position seriously when the creators of the characters themselves are unwilling to maintain consistency between games. For example: Isabela. I love her character in DA2, and I don't think she's ugly at all. However, no matter how much I like her DA2 rendition, she still looks absolutely nothing like her character in DAO. That isn't something that was necessitated by a new game engine, that was a deliberate choice made by the designers. Why are we, the players, supposed to care about canon appearances when the devs themselves don't?

I also don't get the sheer vitriol that some people levy towards players that choose to mod their own games. I mean, it's not like they're affecting your game at all; why not let people do what they want with theirs? Sure, I'll raise my eyebrows at people that choose to whitewash characters like Isabela but ultimately it's in their game and they enjoy it so what I think means absolutely nothing. This sort of rage definitely would put some people off of feeling like they'd be welcome to post here and I think that's really a shame.

[berelinde]

This is the Anders thread. Without endless debate, discussion, and 100K-word manifestos, it would be boring. Also, vitriol isn't news, even here. Mostly, we just understand that people feel strongly about things and eventually agree to disagree. Of course, that's step three. Step two is defening one's point of view to the death, so step three doesn't really come up as much as one might expect.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I think people don't like it when you mod a Bioware game for the same reason I refuse to read any copy of the Count of Monte Cristo that takes out the adorable French Lesbians: 'cause changing major things about a work of art is largely associated with censorship or whitewashing or basically just being one of a wide variety of idiot. (I'm not saying you're an idiot if you mod. I'm saying that editing existing art to suit one's particular taste has some negative associations.)

Now, edits to a work of art aren't always like that. I remember reading some work of fiction a few years ago and thinking that it made a lot more sense than when I had made the attempt previously. It turns out that while most copies of that particular book are based on the first edition, this was based on a posthumous edition after an editor got ahold of the thing and actually made sure that character names were consistent throughout, and that the dates and ages and stuff all lined up.

Then there's that edition of Huck Fin that replaces [Word I don't want to type] with "slave." I see what you're trying to do there, editor... but it fundamentally changes the book, and probably not for the better. (Now, the edition that replaces that word with "robot" instead? I approve of that. That's downright transformative.)

A lot of the objection to modding is all about "standards of beauty," which is something the video game industry deals with rather less constructively than almost any other artform out there currently. All party members in Bioware games are usually pretty unreasonably hot to start with, I mean come on. The worry is that society will get to the point where even the occasional unbelievably sexy hobo will have to have the same generic interchangeable face, and all leading ladies will be exactly 5'10, 110lbs, and blonde. It'll probably never get that bad, but the idea is that if you're willing to deal with scruffy, pointy-nosed Anders, dusky-skinned Isabella, and unconventionally attractive Aveline, maybe you'll have more tolerance in the long run for characters that fit outside the stereotypical TV hotness zone.

[Tyrium]

Personally, I like my Anders scruffy and pointy-nosed. Though I do use a mod that makes the stubble match the hair

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I also prefer Anders scruffy and pointy-nosed. He's one of the most attractive video game males I've ever seen (Fenris is brilliant too, though. His effin shoulders... I could watch that boy shrug all day. The modern elves should be based on him, rather than him being a bulked up version of an elf.) The thing is, I know I don't have conventional taste in men. But yeah, I find Anders more physically attractive than Alistair or Kaidan, by a lot.

[Maddcassel]

Why on earth would you want to change beautiful Anders?

[hobbit of the shire]

I want to have variety in my games. I am not a conventional person either and I'm sure many people aren't. It is sorta my observation in games is that the LI tends to be a more conventional character. Take DA for instance. Why no love for Sten and Oghren? DA2: Aveline or Varric? Or, in NWN2, why in the world not Sand!? What I wouldn't have done if Sand were romanceable in NWN2 rather than proper-paladin Casavir? Aveline is intriguing way more than Isabela and Merrill. Varric is pure awesomeness.

That's not to say all characters should be romanceable (as it still has to go along with the storyline), but it seems they are picking and choosing a "type" that is romanceable.

Anyway, that's just my comment on a few lines I saw while lurking the thread.

I love Anders. Dorky silly mages with a bit of scruff and ponytails...mmmm. Loved him in DAO and have grown to love even more his looks in DA2 (but not the personality). Alistair is quite attractive and hot too, but a little too bulky for my tastes. Seems that in pop culture the ideal man is going from big macho man to the more metro man. So, both are in vogue. But as for females, I think there is still a big emphasis on the bombshells. Manly women still get a bad rap.

[LT123]

Mary Kirby wrote some interesting posts in the Varric thread about romances in games in general, Bioware games, and why specifically Varric isn't a love interest. She stated out that if Varric were a love interest, he would be a different character than he is.

One of her points was that "the crux of a love story" is why the two characters can't be together. Casavir works as a love interest because he's trying to figure out how to balance his duty as a paladin, which involves watching out for the entire group, and love, which is pushing him to focus on the KC. Anders has problems with self-loathing and his merger with Justice which convince him that a relationship with Hawke would end in tears, and he tells female Hawkes that in one of the earliest conversations with him, depending on the dialogue options chosen.