57020 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

That was definitely worth the read, LT123. It looks like they got the drama and conflict part down, anyway. Especially with Anders. I kind of wish it took longer, but I'm a glutton for punishment.

Though it's better than NWN2. That one didn't have any romance dialogue at all, really, and no nookie until the very end of teh game.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

LT123 wrote...

Mary Kirby wrote some interesting posts in the Varric thread about romances in games in general, Bioware games, and why specifically Varric isn't a love interest. She stated out that if Varric were a love interest, he would be a different character than he is.

One of her points was that "the crux of a love story" is why the two characters can't be together. Casavir works as a love interest because he's trying to figure out how to balance his duty as a paladin, which involves watching out for the entire group, and love, which is pushing him to focus on the KC. Anders has problems with self-loathing and his merger with Justice which convince him that a relationship with Hawke would end in tears, and he tells female Hawkes that in one of the earliest conversations with him, depending on the dialogue options chosen.

I understand how drama works. The thing is, with video game romances I... sort of disagree.

With video game romances, the romance doesn't have to carry the story 100%, and you can provide several different romance options. So you could, theoretically, try something completely cliche-breaking just to... see if it worked for people.

I'm always seeing writers say "well, you clearly don't want the same things in a fictional romance as you'd want in a non-fictional romance. It always has to follow that same arc of denial and incompatibility." Why? Has anyone ever actually tried it the other way, properly? I actually often find myself more interested in the "backup" couple in some stories... the ones who are allowed to be good together.

Sometimes when I'm at writers' panels for video games, I feel like they're too slavishly devoted to conventional hollywood or fictional story structure. Don't you understand... we don't have to do that! We're not movies! We can include a bizarre unconventional freak romance that is cute and stable, and see if anyone bites. Even a relatively cheap 20 million dollar movie can't do that! 

Now, I understand drama sometimes. I like me a good Cullen and Amell story. But based on the absolutely huge number of people who chose princess Cousland just because they heard that it resulted in the most drama-free ending... maybe people are ready for a romance that isn't conventionally dramatic.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 07 septembre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...



I understand how drama works. The thing is, with video game romances I... sort of disagree.

With video game romances, the romance doesn't have to carry the story 100%, and you can provide several different romance options. So you could, theoretically, try something completely cliche-breaking just to... see if it worked for people.

I'm always seeing writers say "well, you clearly don't want the same things in a fictional romance as you'd want in a non-fictional romance. It always has to follow that same arc of denial and incompatibility." Why? Has anyone ever actually tried it the other way, properly? I actually often find myself more interested in the "backup" couple in some stories... the ones who are allowed to be good together.

Sometimes when I'm at writers' panels for video games, I feel like they're too slavishly devoted to conventional hollywood or fictional story structure. Don't you understand... we don't have to do that! We're not movies! We can include a bizarre unconventional freak romance that is cute and stable, and see if anyone bites. Even a relatively cheap 20 million dollar movie can't do that! 

Now, I understand drama sometimes. I like me a good Cullen and Amell story. But based on the absolutely huge number of people who chose princess Cousland just because they heard that it resulted in the most drama-free ending... maybe people are ready for a romance that isn't conventionally dramatic.

Happy endings or functional pairs don't work well when you are trying for a dark fantasy sort of setting. Maybe for other settings. I do not see how one could fit one into a story that is supposed to be dark, with happy endings not really being part of the genre. Plus, I think a "normal" romance would be rather boring to pursue in such a fictional setting.

My opinion, at least.

[Giggles_Manically]

I think that DA2 romances just had to much:
AAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGSSSSSSTTTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

They were not very subtle in comparison with the ones in Origins.
Those built up.

These knock in your door and ravish you, then angst about it for years.

[Nilfalasiel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I understand how drama works. The thing is, with video game romances I... sort of disagree.

With video game romances, the romance doesn't have to carry the story 100%, and you can provide several different romance options. So you could, theoretically, try something completely cliche-breaking just to... see if it worked for people.

I'm always seeing writers say "well, you clearly don't want the same things in a fictional romance as you'd want in a non-fictional romance. It always has to follow that same arc of denial and incompatibility." Why? Has anyone ever actually tried it the other way, properly? I actually often find myself more interested in the "backup" couple in some stories... the ones who are allowed to be good together.

Sometimes when I'm at writers' panels for video games, I feel like they're too slavishly devoted to conventional hollywood or fictional story structure. Don't you understand... we don't have to do that! We're not movies! We can include a bizarre unconventional freak romance that is cute and stable, and see if anyone bites. Even a relatively cheap 20 million dollar movie can't do that! 

Now, I understand drama sometimes. I like me a good Cullen and Amell story. But based on the absolutely huge number of people who chose princess Cousland just because they heard that it resulted in the most drama-free ending... maybe people are ready for a romance that isn't conventionally dramatic.

I agree with this. It's true that drama sells romances, because, let's face it, it practically writes the story for you. Which makes it all the more difficult to successfully write something different and have it work out without any major heartache. Take Aveline and Donnic: those two work out just fine with minimal drama. Perfect example of a "backup" couple which works as a sort of breather from the drama-fraught main romances (even though I'm not sure how drama-fraught Isabela's one can be qualified, by comparison with the 3 others). And I really like the fact that they included it in the game.

Not sure if I'd qualify princess Cousland as the most drama-free DAO romance...Even if you do become princess, you still had to agree to a highly dubious ritual with Morrigan. Sure, it's a lot less dramatic than having Alistair throw himself at the archdemon for you (or vice-versa), but it's not as drama-free as, say, a romance with Leliana or, to a slightly lesser extent, Zevran (heck, that's part of the reason why I favour him over Alistair). Still, there's a large amount of people who picked Leliana as their LI as well, so that also serves to reinforce your point about people also enjoying non-conventionally dramatic stories.

Anyways, all that being said: constant drama can become wearying. And can be a cliché in its own right. By all means, don't do away with it altogether, but...it can't hurt to have a break, right?

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 07 septembre 2011 - 03:26 .

[berelinde]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I'm always seeing writers say "well, you clearly don't want the same things in a fictional romance as you'd want in a non-fictional romance. It always has to follow that same arc of denial and incompatibility." Why? Has anyone ever actually tried it the other way, properly? 

I did, in a mod for Baldur's Gate/Baldur's Gate 2. Regular guy with no superpowers, no excessive drama in the romance. Those who liked him, liked him a lot, but a lot of players found the romance kind of lackluster compared to some of the more dramatic roller-coaster rides. I'm not sorry that I wrote him that way, but if I ever do another NPC mod, I'll probably go with a more traditional approach.

And yes, there is the possibility that the problem with Gavin might have been the writing, not the relationship path. We'll never know.

Seriously, though, I would not have wanted Anders's romance to go any other way. If anything, I would have liked more dialogues between the time Hawke finds out that Anders is interested and the time Anders overcomes his reluctance. I wouldn't mind seeing more of his struggle. Sure, we all know he's aching for Hawke, but for male Hawkes, at least, the reason for Anders's refusal to enter the romance is a lot less clear. Plus, I've never been entirely certain how promiscuous DA:A Anders turned into a monogamous jealousy-monster. I'm not complaining! I like monogamous jealousy-monsters. I'm just curious about the mechanism of change. Though a twisted AU part of my brain really wishes Hawke could have a meaningless fling with him as soon as they meet.

Anders: I'll have to consult my looking glass more often!
Hawke: *savages Anders*

[Heidenreich]

berelinde wrote...
Plus, I've never been entirely certain how promiscuous DA:A Anders turned into a monogamous jealousy-monster. I'm not complaining! I like monogamous jealousy-monsters. I'm just curious about the mechanism of change. Though a twisted AU part of my brain really wishes Hawke could have a meaningless fling with him as soon as they meet.

Anders: I'll have to consult my looking glass more often!
Hawke: *savages Anders*

YES. THIS. 

See, what a -GREAT- anders set up too. Anders needs to get over Karl's death, so he has a fling with Hawke, and then, thanks to Justice and friendship/rivalry gains, Anders spends the remainder of Act 1 Hyperventilating about said "meaningless fling".  "Oh my sweet maker, she/he's so wonderful. I need them!"/"Oh my sweet maker what was I thinking? They're so sexy though, but.. no, bad!"

and THEN in act 2, after Dissent him saying that he's been Aching for Hawke for three years makes SO MUCH MORE SENSE, AND MAKES IT TOTALLY MORE AWESOME.



Course that does make the relationship a bit like Fenris/Isabel.. except in Act 1, and it's totally optional. Easily fixed by having him not "run away."  or being like "trollfase* JUST 4 FUN". Just like, an over-night fling for a completely flirted-with Anders if you bring him along to The Deep Roads, or something right close to before leaving.. and then thanks to sibling-horriblness (be it wardening, or templar/circle, or death) HAWKE pulls away.

Yep.

Then the codex can reflect Anders having delved into his work to releave the guilt of their "one night" before tragedy had struck Hawke. When you go visit him in act 2 right away he can be all "...so, how's it going?" all sweet and shy.. but neither of them bring up that night...

and then, dissent, hot sweaty kiss, "I've been Aching for you for three years, after that night...":devil:


SEE TOTALLY NOT COMPLETELY CHANGING THE Act 2 STUFF ;p

Modifié par Heidenreich, 07 septembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[Amondra]

 

I don't if someone posted it already but you all can stand to see the cuteness again!  Also here is a commission I had done

[Arquen]

The thing about romances in games like this is that they are completely optional.

I actually think the pacing of the romances was well done in DA2. Sure, there could be *more* There could always be *more*, but what we did get was well developed and thought out I thought.

I mean, the romances in themselves have been such topics of discussion/debate/fanfiction that I don't really see them as half-baked or anything. I played the game for the storyline first and the romance second. I enjoyed the romance as a side dish. Devoting so much time to snogging your LI kind of makes me feel like it is a distraction. In DA:O, while I loved snogging Alistair any time I wanted, I actually felt the scenes and pacing was kind of off. In a romance, snog snog snog, chat chat chat, then go do missions.

I like DA2 where it is a specific trigger or cutscene or something that allows the romance to progress. As stated there could always be *more.* The whole living statue effect when a LI moves in is no fun, but I think the romances over-all are well done.

As far as "normal" relationship, yeah... that isn't going to really happen. It would be rather dull if it did. The drama and the angst is part of the universe of Dragon Age, and I wouldn't really like it any other way. Bittersweet endings are the bestest.

[kromify]

Arquen wrote...

The thing about romances in games like this is that they are completely optional.

I actually think the pacing of the romances was well done in DA2. Sure, there could be *more* There could always be *more*, but what we did get was well developed and thought out I thought.

I mean, the romances in themselves have been such topics of discussion/debate/fanfiction that I don't really see them as half-baked or anything. I played the game for the storyline first and the romance second. I enjoyed the romance as a side dish. Devoting so much time to snogging your LI kind of makes me feel like it is a distraction. In DA:O, while I loved snogging Alistair any time I wanted, I actually felt the scenes and pacing was kind of off. In a romance, snog snog snog, chat chat chat, then go do missions.

I like DA2 where it is a specific trigger or cutscene or something that allows the romance to progress. As stated there could always be *more.* The whole living statue effect when a LI moves in is no fun, but I think the romances over-all are well done.

As far as "normal" relationship, yeah... that isn't going to really happen. It would be rather dull if it did. The drama and the angst is part of the universe of Dragon Age, and I wouldn't really like it any other way. Bittersweet endings are the bestest.

i wouldn't say no to more! but what i really wanted was more acknowledgement of my choice than 2 short dialogues and inferences in aveline's romance quest. legacy does that alright - i imagine the writers paid attention to what players wanted to know more about, like varric's private life and how siblings are doing in their new careers.

i chose anders first PT but i stick with him for the most part because of the angst. he is the character there is most to think about. plus he's pretty

[Heidenreich]

kromify wrote...

Arquen wrote...

The thing about romances in games like this is that they are completely optional.

I actually think the pacing of the romances was well done in DA2. Sure, there could be *more* There could always be *more*, but what we did get was well developed and thought out I thought.

I mean, the romances in themselves have been such topics of discussion/debate/fanfiction that I don't really see them as half-baked or anything. I played the game for the storyline first and the romance second. I enjoyed the romance as a side dish. Devoting so much time to snogging your LI kind of makes me feel like it is a distraction. In DA:O, while I loved snogging Alistair any time I wanted, I actually felt the scenes and pacing was kind of off. In a romance, snog snog snog, chat chat chat, then go do missions.

I like DA2 where it is a specific trigger or cutscene or something that allows the romance to progress. As stated there could always be *more.* The whole living statue effect when a LI moves in is no fun, but I think the romances over-all are well done.

As far as "normal" relationship, yeah... that isn't going to really happen. It would be rather dull if it did. The drama and the angst is part of the universe of Dragon Age, and I wouldn't really like it any other way. Bittersweet endings are the bestest.

i wouldn't say no to more! but what i really wanted was more acknowledgement of my choice than 2 short dialogues and inferences in aveline's romance quest. legacy does that alright - i imagine the writers paid attention to what players wanted to know more about, like varric's private life and how siblings are doing in their new careers.

i chose anders first PT but i stick with him for the most part because of the angst. he is the character there is most to think about. plus he's pretty

<_<

Don't talk to me about Legacy.

*grumbles, "stupid bugged romance flags not working and getting the isabela conversation with Varric/Fenris instead of the ACTUAL romace between he and Angel. :crying::crying:*

[SurelyForth]

I suspect that Jealousy-Monster Anders is a side effect of being Justified and the fact that Hawke is his The One. I normally despise concepts of The One, but it works for Anders--> Hawke because of the fact that he's got this problem that a normal person would find out about and be all...yes. How about I behead you now? but Hawke is varying degrees of *shrug* instead.

That being said, I would kill for an ill-advised one night stand in Act 1. Or even a kiss. Just...anything to make that three year gap more endurable.

Speaking of delayed romance, more Andersy art from SweetCandyRain:

Modifié par SurelyForth, 08 septembre 2011 - 12:20 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The thing is, Bioware actually does have one fairly normal romance, and its normality is the reason I love it: Garrus.

Ok, so it's not normal in that he has mandibles and a carapace. But their romance isn't about why they can't be together, it's more about the awkwardness of two close friends deciding to do it. And yet it still delivers the drama at the end, in the final scene and it is a pitch perfect representation of developing a deepening relationship with someone who is also your best friend.

Now, I like Anders and I like his romance. I wasn't saying "no angst ever," but maybe give us two heavy angst options and then one less-angst one. I honestly think a Varric "pseudo romance" would have been more popular than the Sebastian one is. They could even have an excuse for no big consummating love scene: Varric just breaks out and says "Listen, I'm not going to go into a bunch of details about my own love life."

Now, if a Garrus-style romance is completely out of the question for Dragon Age, well that's just another place where I'm going to have to say "advantage: Mass Effect." And I say this as someone whose Garrus romance is also undercut with "poor Kaidan, noooooo" angst (depending on what the 'cheat' penalty is, I may have to make the poor boy a faithful save file.)

Sebastian's romance-esque-thing was an experiment, as was Sebastian himself. I still think a casual fourth-wall-breaking Varric pseudo-romance would have been amazing, and a great deal more interesting than yet another chantry boy and yet another prince. Oh boo hoo, duty versus heredity! We've never heard that before. /coughs.

If you can honestly look at both Varric and Sebastian and say you'd rather have Sebastian return your affections... I... I don't think we can ever reach any understanding on the matter. We're simply... too different, in that case.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 septembre 2011 - 02:27 .

[berelinde]

Er... who in this thread wanted the Sebastian flirtation?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Haha, sorry berelinde. I was just speaking hypothetically. So many people here say that a calm and angst-free romance would have no place in the dragon age universe. And I'm saying look, I wouldn't want to take away one of your "mainline" romances for my experimental less drama romance, but they could try it out with something Sebastian style... something that doesn't take away from the mainline focus relationships, but that exists off on the side, experimental-like.

If you didn't think the Varric-mance "fits in the world" of Dragon Age, you wouldn't have to do it... just like you don't have to do Sebastian's weird thing. But I don't see how trying something like that on the side would hurt anyone else's play experience.

People also said that romance with a functional friend who isn't tormenting himself would be boring. I was just saying it seems to me that a Varric pseudo-mance would be significantly more interesting and fun than a Sebastian pseudo-mance.

I don't even think Sebastian's romance is that bad, really. It's just... more of the same, but more of the same in a way that is inherently less satisfying than its precursors: Seb fans are always wanting the Seb-mance to be treated the same as the other LIs, and I think that's partially because there's no logical reason for his romance to be less developed.

With a Varric romance (or any narrator/friend romance) there would be a reason to have fewer scenes and less explicit consumation, if you were just trying it out as a test. It would make sense that it didn't follow the same format as the other romances because it would be entirely unlike them.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 septembre 2011 - 03:01 .

[LT123]

berelinde wrote...

Er... who in this thread wanted the Sebastian flirtation?

*raises hand*

What? It was my first playthrough. I went for the Scottish accent.

And then Seb a) didn't show up after Leandra died (Aveline was nice, but come on), proposed a chaste marriage, which fits his character but was not appealing and c) delivered his ultimatum during the endgame, which made me react as though I were playing my Dalish Warden Commander-No one messes with her Wardens. And Hawke agreed with Merrill ("Let him come with us. Give him a chance to put things right."). So Seb got sent packing.

And for my second playthrough I went for the catless mage hobo with the puppy eyes.

Altogether since that first playthrough was royally screwed up (didn't do some companion quests, lost Fenris and Isabela) that might turn out to be my Anders dies FOR SCIENCE run.

[Heidenreich]

*see's raised hand, and screams*

how.. I mean.. I just..

No.

*hides behind Berelinde and CGC*

Also? Totally taking up the whole board with posts before bed. Srsly.

[berelinde]

Confession time. I totally wanted to do a Sebastian rivalmance PT with a non-mage just so I could bask in the righteous indignation I would feel when Sebastian flirted with Bethany right in front of me. Yes, I do realize how sick that is. Two things stopped me. First of all, I wouldn't be able to romance Anders. Second of all, Carver would die. OK, three things. The third would be that I would actally have to put up with Sebastian. So I guess I'll just have to see if there's a video on YouTube.

[Nilfalasiel]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The thing is, Bioware actually does have one fairly normal romance, and its normality is the reason I love it: Garrus.

Ok, so it's not normal in that he has mandibles and a carapace. But their romance isn't about why they can't be together, it's more about the awkwardness of two close friends deciding to do it. And yet it still delivers the drama at the end, in the final scene and it is a pitch perfect representation of developing a deepening relationship with someone who is also your best friend.

I agree, but in all fairness, Jacob's romance is far more normal than any other ME romance. The guy has, like, no issues, and there is no drama whatsoever involved.

Of course...he's probably the least popular romance option out of ME1 and ME2. But that's more because of his personality than the actual romance. In fact, there's quite a lot of people who are jealous of the amount of content he got, for being such a bland character.

If we're looking at other BW games, Sky from JE qualifies as a relatively drama-free romance as well.

@ Surely: Good lord, that's a gorgeous pic

[Arquen]

You ever think Sebastian will actually show up with that army of his? Will Anders still be alive if he does?

I would be like "Okay, Anders.. carry this white flag, and gogogogo! He's a prince now, right? He won't attack you if your carrying a white flag, right? right?"

I just was utterly disappointed in that ultimatum. I didn't think it was fair that Sebastian forced you to murder knife Anders. His "waffling" principles on murder and everything else got to me after a while. I honestly wanted to see him storm off and become a Prince. Hey, good for you -- figure your life out, get back to me when you do, and we will meet on the battlefield with my PRECIOUS Anders in tow.

[berelinde]

Arquen wrote...

You ever think Sebastian will actually show up with that army of his? Will Anders still be alive if he does?

If the game followed my opinion of Sebastian, no, he would never return with his army. Without Hawke holding his hand every step of the way, he's pretty useless.

As it stands, I'm convinced that some future DLC (especially if it involves Starkhaven or an Exalted March) will feature Sebastian leading an army against Kirkwall. Perhaps this will occur even if you did kill Anders in accordance with Sebastian's demands. Because Elthina is still dead and the blood of one tormented soul is not payment enough.

And why wouldn't Anders be alive? Unless Hawke killed him or sided with the templars, of course, in which case, yeah, he's dead. Anders is still a Warden, but he's still got time on the meter. Twenty years, give or take.

[YamiSnuffles]

I would hope if Sebastian does come back with an army if you spare Anders, that he doesn't take it to Kirkwall. Because, seriously, I know my Hawke and Anders would be far from Kirkwall by the time he manages to gather any army. So would all of Hawke's companions, I assume. So it would just be a completely dick move on Seb's part if all the people he might want revenge on are gone but he destroys the city anyway.

[Nilfalasiel]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I would hope if Sebastian does come back with an army if you spare Anders, that he doesn't take it to Kirkwall. Because, seriously, I know my Hawke and Anders would be far from Kirkwall by the time he manages to gather any army. So would all of Hawke's companions, I assume. So it would just be a completely dick move on Seb's part if all the people he might want revenge on are gone but he destroys the city anyway.

Yeah, but then what's he going to do with that army? Unless he knows where Hawke and/or Anders, and/or any of the other companions have gone, he'll be left looking a little silly.

Of course, that's no reason to go marching on a city full of people who are only marginally related to his problem. Unless he simply decides to go slaughter some mages, but that's hardly going to help.

[highcastle]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I understand how drama works. The thing is, with video game romances I... sort of disagree.

With video game romances, the romance doesn't have to carry the story 100%, and you can provide several different romance options. So you could, theoretically, try something completely cliche-breaking just to... see if it worked for people.

I'm always seeing writers say "well, you clearly don't want the same things in a fictional romance as you'd want in a non-fictional romance. It always has to follow that same arc of denial and incompatibility." Why? Has anyone ever actually tried it the other way, properly? I actually often find myself more interested in the "backup" couple in some stories... the ones who are allowed to be good together.

Sometimes when I'm at writers' panels for video games, I feel like they're too slavishly devoted to conventional hollywood or fictional story structure. Don't you understand... we don't have to do that! We're not movies! We can include a bizarre unconventional freak romance that is cute and stable, and see if anyone bites. Even a relatively cheap 20 million dollar movie can't do that! 

Now, I understand drama sometimes. I like me a good Cullen and Amell story. But based on the absolutely huge number of people who chose princess Cousland just because they heard that it resulted in the most drama-free ending... maybe people are ready for a romance that isn't conventionally dramatic.

BioWare RPGs tell stories that adhere to time-tested narrative devices. This isn't about copying Hollywood style, it's about sticking with what works in fiction. And that's all fiction. Literature, comic books, film, television, and--yes--video games. The only thing that sets us apart from the other mediums is interactivity.  I for one am not convinced that means our medium doesn't jibe with traditional narrative structure. Now, we could get into a discussion about how interactivity could potentially change the way the stories are being told, but that's a different topic. This issue seems to be what the story is to begin with.

I hear quite a bit from people who say "We just want a normal romance." The problem with normal, all-fluff-all-the-time is that it gets boring. Fast. Even though we might crave it in our real lives, it has very little place in fiction. A traditional story arc is built on rising tension. Things keep getting worse and worse and worse until it reaches the point where everything snaps. And while the romance plot is not the central plot of the game, it's still a plot and should adhere to that basic set-up. Why? Because rising action compels us to move forward. We're driven by a desire to see if things work out or to watch them fall apart.

Now, I'm not advocating that all stories become trite and formulaic. What I am saying is that certain conventions work. While I'm a huge fan of break-the-mold postmodernism, even the most out-there stuff I read and watch still contains dramatic tension. A plot that was all fluff, where the characters got what they want all the time and never had to fight for it or deal with disappointment or loss, is a plot that's just not very interesting. 

Besides, doesn't fighting for love and sacrificing for it make it that much more worthwhile? Doesn't it make the love interest that much more desirable because they're so hard to have and keep? Thinkg of game mechanics for a moment. When something is given to us at the outset with little to no effort on our part, how much do we care about it? But when we win it after fighting a dragon or beating that really tough boss fight, the reward is that much sweeter. In that regard, BioWare writes ideal romances for the video game medium. Instead of winning the love interests through traditional boss fights, we win them by overcoming personal and emotional hurdles. And sometimes we lose them in the same way.

I guess what I'm saying is: I for one don't think a non-dramatic romance can work in any fictional medium. At least I wouldn't be interested, anyway.