57019 réponses à ce sujet

[Arquen]

Lol welcome to my world CGG....

The whole reason I falter on the Anders romance is because I am not a "fixer." Im much more attached to Hawke's reactive side than I ever was to the Warden's "okay here's what you do ill take care of you all side..." While I love Anders it is true that he needs a proactive force, but what irks me is that he needs it too much. He can't do it by himself and your his crutch. I just tend to shy away from that kind of dependency. I am much more attached to the Fenris romance in that all he needs is a stable, reactive force who is there for him, and he figures out the rest. He takes control of his own life while Anders needs some one to literally take over for him and go "oh sweetie... here's what were gonna do." Unfortunately that isn't Hawke....

Edit for TOP and HILARIOUSNESS



by Land of the Sky on Tumblr

Modifié par Arquen, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:44 .

[Heidenreich]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

I do hope that there is a DLC/Expansion that at least in some way addresses the actual start of the war, and whether or not Hawke decides to have a significant part in it. I just don't see how anything else story-wise will actually make Hawke more of a... thing for me.

DA:O wins it for me in the protagonist area, DA2 in the companions (well, if you don't count the Awakening companions, who are practically tied. Double Anders, Sigrun vs. Varric, and then Fenris vs Nate? Too close to call.)

I was actually thinking about this in the Fenris thread earlier... and kind of touched on it, but didn't really explore it. Let me sum up for those who don't haunt both: I think that Hawke is a reactive person, and the Warden is a proactive one. The Warden does things, hoping they'll work out... sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. (Sparing vs. killing Loghain, doing the Dark Ritual, choosing the ruler of Ferelden. ending the blight). Hawke is reactive: waiting for something to happen, and then dealing with it, rather than putting things into action. Hawke doesn't blow the chantry, but determines what happens after it blows. I'm not saying that one of these things is inherently superior to the other... they're just different tactics. I can see the Warden ending up in Kirkwall and starting a civil war in the first week, rather than allowing moderate stability to reign for nearly a decade.

That said, this is the reason I'm so conflicted about the relationships. I realized part of this while reading Coffee, Black (naturally). Fenris is the kind of person who needs someone who will react to him, rather than forcing him into action. He needs someone who will just listen, and then ask him what he thinks, but not actually force him into anything. He needs someone just like Hawke, basically. Even Rival Hawke is usually pretty calm when talking with Fenris, often dry and sarcastic, rather than shouty or confrontational.

Anders, on the other hand, needs someone to grab him by the shoulders in Act 1 and say ""I love you! GET HELP." At the very latest, this needs to happen immediately after Ella. Not just "stay, you're stronger than this" and then step back and let him sort it out by himself. He can't sort it out by himself! That only works on Fenrises!

Now me, personally, I'm the grab-you-by-the-shoulders kind of person. I am most assuredly not the kind of person who would be able to sit back for three years while someone who I know is crazy about me gets his head together. I would constantly be trying to talk about it, and if that failed I'd just give up. I envy people who can do that, but it would drive me absolutely nuts. Sure, if they showed up at the end of three years and I happened to be still single, I'd deal with it on a minute-to-minute basis, but I'd be pissed... and I'd probably go right back to being proactive and in-their-face and challenging, and they'd probably flee.

But that makes me realize why so many of my Hawkes gravitate to Fenris initially, and why some meant for Anders got stolen by Fen and Isabella (I still have more Anders-mances than any other, but it took three tries to get Anders an apostate).

I used to be upset that they didn't give us a chance to have Hawke really proactively try to get Anders help. It wasn't until recently that I realized that there are some people who just aren't the type to do something like that, and often that's a good thing. Hawke really seems to believe Anders can handle his own issues. It's not his fault that he's wrong... it's actually more charitable to think that than to think "look, you obviously can't handle this and don't know what's good for you, so I'm going to solve everything." Which is pretty much exactly what my Warden did to poor Alistair, because that's the Warden's way. The Warden thinks she knows better than everyone. Hawke trusts things to go OK, and acts only when things get bad, rather than presuming to control the universe. It's far less egotistical, but there are some problems that it just can't solve.

Which, at the end of the day, is why the vast majority of anti-da2'ers are.. anti-da2. They're pissed that they don't have that "control every aspect of everything" that the Warden Gets.. because that's just not who Hawke is as a person.

Hawke's the kind of person that **** just happens to.. and so they go with it. "Go with Instinct, because thinking about something to much leads to all sorts of horrible things." - should be Hawke's motto.

The Warden is the kind of person who makes **** happen, even if no one else wants it to.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Thanks for quoting... I hate it when one of my rambles gets bottom page'd

/is a terrible person.

The thing is, this aspect of Hawke's personality only bothers me in regards to Anders. For every other aspect of the game, it's great. I think it's worse because my Warden DID know Anders. If Anders was just some poor soul who never met anyone capable of helping him, it would be much easier to take it.

[Naqey]

Kudos to CulturalGeekGirl, that must be one of the most clear sighted analyses about the Warden/Hawke and Fenris/Anders issue which I have read in a long time. I totally agree.

That said, I guess I have my explanation why I, personally, gravitate so much towards Hawke and actually preferred DA2 to DA:O a lot. Hawke is just more of the person I can relate to. Somebody who doesn't think that he's capable of forcing the world to change according to his terms. Honestly, it is right there in the complaint of many people about "my decisions don't change anything". DA:O is a game that gives us a proactive hero, and it goes along with its type of hero, actually letting him/her achieve what he/she set out to do. DA2 on the other hand side... Things happen. And Hawke tries to adjust to them, tries to make the best out of the limited option he is given when forced into a situation. And often enough, he is not able to get what he likes to, no matter what (what I feel is far more... "life-like", but maybe that's the fatalist streak in my character speaking)

But then again, however much I like Hawke as he/she is, even I would have like to have been given different options with regards to Anders. It so drove me crazy (because I'm practically nuts about the guy) that I had to see him heading down the road to his own doom, and was unable to help him in any way...

[CulturalGeekGirl]

The weird thing is that the Warden is, in many ways, screwed. I mean, for one thing... Warden! and the rest of their life is usually in shambles as well. When you start from that kind of crisis, there's nowhere to go but up. Purely empirically, Hawke ends the game in a much better situation than the Warden: probably at least one surviving sibling, together with their love interest, not coursing with taint, nobody had to die or have a demon baby. My Warden screwed her first love over, sent her pregnant best friend to another dimension, and, the minute she turned her back, the Man chased away the person who was on track to replace one or both of them. If not for Sigrun and Zevran, she'd probably be completely insane at this point. Yet other than the barely explicable off-screen Anders failure, people consider the Warden's story more triumphant. I think it's because the Warden's losses feel like voluntary sacrifices, whereas Hawke's losses are all pretty much unavoidable.

Holy crap, I just had the weirdest thought: maybe this explains why Justice doesn't like Hawke. Justice is always trying to get everyone to proactively work to end oppression, but Hawke doesn't do crusading. Most humans don't! But after seeing the Warden in action, Hawke, even a pro-mage Hawke, must utterly infuriate Justice.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 13 septembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Naqey]

And this is yet another reason why I totally prefer Anders over Fenris (however sweet our poor, tortured elf is): Hawke and Fenris, together in the end of DA2? That seems too much like an "impending happy ending". Theoretically, there is a good chance that they WILL be happy together, isn't there? Fenris is free of Danarius and can choose whatever life he likes. No drama there. Hawke... well, if you just leave the screwed up Kirkwall and look for a nice, peaceful place where nobody knows you (maybe in Par Vollen? ^^), then nothing should go wrong...

But I just can't have that. My warden was screwed in many ways, too. I always like to imagine that she spared Loghain, that Alistair (whom she dearly loved) seized the throne and that Loghain sacraficed himself in the ending. I feel that this is the best outcome for Ferelden, but the worst for my Warden. No heroic sacrafice, and hated the more for making Loghain a hero by the one person she truly loved...

The same goes for the Anders romance: no possible "good outcome". Even if they end up as fugitives together (and I am happy to have been given that option. I'm still deeply scared by the NWN2 Bishop romance, where I couldn't just run away with Bishop, practically dooming him to death and... the wall. Eeek!) they still have Sebastian on their heels, and Anders taint plus Justice/Vengence will finish him off sooner or later (rather sooner).

But sure, I always figured that Justice disliked Hawke so much, because Hawke was one for appeasement, not full-on action. Appeasement brings slow change, if any. And Justice, being Justice wants... well justice. Immediately. No matter the cost NOW.

[berelinde]

If Justice were still a separate entity, I would buy the "That's why Justice hates Hawke" thing, but he isn't. He's become just one more aspect (albeit a very important aspect) of Anders's personality, identity, and worldview. What makes him Anders. Janders does not want to be helped. He wants someone to accept him the way he is. Yes, this is unhealthy. That isn't the point. After Ella, yeah, Anders might realize "Yeah, I really need help," but by that point, its too late. He is already desperately in love with Hawke and his devotion will admit no other object.

And let's go back to Janders not wanting to be helped. Anders is weak, but Justice is not. You know what happens when you push a strong person to do something they don't want to do? They push back. Hard. If you keep pushing, they'll toss you right out of their lives. Because they don't need that sh*t and they aren't afraid to tell you.

So, instead of Doormat Hawke whom every facet of Janders can love, I give you Foam-Wrapped-Rebar Hawke. S/He's yeilding on the outside and is content to give Anders what he craves in Act 1, when he's still acting sane (he's slightly unstable, but he doesn't really come unglued until later). But later on, when it becomes obvious that Janders must be helped whether it destroys their relationship or not, and an exploding government building is a pretty clear sign of that happening, Hawke has the inner strength to say "Dude, that is definitely the last straw. You are going into rehab RIGHT NOW." Which is why, as soon as Meredith's remains start to anneal, my Hawke throws Anders over his shoulder, locks him in a cabin on the Siren's Call II, and tells Isabela to chart them a course for Tevinter, because one way or another, they are going to find answers.

Modifié par berelinde, 13 septembre 2011 - 10:29 .

[ekurian]

Just popping in here before I get back to my current DA2 playthrough- in which I've romanced Fenris for the first time.

And lemme tell, you, it was hard D: Because I was friends with Anders, I kept getting the impression that he loves Hawke. Especially his little talk on the Justice mission when he says 'Don't you want someone more open minded?'

The whole thing has been a matter of me leaving Anders behind on most missions so I don't end up running of to him to hug him better ><

BUT, it has been an enlightening experience. One, I no longer hate Fenris! Two, it's finally given me the courage to make a playthrough in which I intend to rival Anders. (Though I will never side with the Templars. Did it once, never again.)

Anyway, that's my babble over, so I ask you- any advice on rivaling Anders without me breaking down and wanting to cuddle him?

[Naqey]

I'm pretty sure this must have been discussed millions of times, over and over again (but since I'm new to the DA2 forums, I'm not really up to date in this respect), but I don't agree that Anders and Justice have really, truly merged. I know, Anders keeps saying that, keeps saying that he IS Justice, and Justice is him, but there are enough instances when this doesn't seem to hold true. Otherwise the whole "passenger in my own skin" thing wouldn't make any sense (www.youtube.com/watch). Of course, in the end it's up to everyone to decide which version of Ander's story they want to take as the "true one", but I like to think that the whole "I AM Justice" rhetoric is rather something Anders wants to make himself believe, so he doesn't suffer so much from the obvious split between the two personalities. It's more soothing to think "well, after all that IS me" rather than "damnit, I'm a prisioner in my own body!"

But getting back to the whole "proactive" and "reactive" issue, I'm pretty much intrigued at the dynamics of the Anders romance (friendship). It took me until the very end to really grasp this in it's fullest, so it struck me only yesterday when I finally finished the game: it's always Anders forcing Hawke into submission; if you want to keep him, you will have to go along. It always either "you do what I want or you don't love me". I remember trying to oppose him when he wanted me to distract Elthina, but grumblingly ended up saying "Ok, I'll go along, but I won't forget that you blackmailed me into this".That really frustrated me so much. But what to do, if you want to play a Hawke that really loves Anders? He couldn't just shrug it off and say "ok, Anders is a lost cause".

The rivalry path isn't really an option, since it means siding with the templars, which wasn't really what my Hawke would have done. I would have liked to be given the chance to react more proactively to Anders AND show support for the mages.

The only option that pointed in that direction - Thrask's little mage-templar-let's-work-together-rebellion - got immediately smashed. I was really like "argh, let me HELP YOU!!! FINALLY someone SANE!" followed by "Maker, NOOO!! You crazy bloodmage b****, why do you have to destroy it all??"

That being said, I will gladly take a modified version of your "Foam-Wrapped-Rebar Hawke", berelinde. I would have knocked that bastard and brought him to Tevinter, for his own good.

Oh Anders, you bloody... 27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqc756mlZ51r1hjuro1_500.png

Ekurian, you tell me! Sadly, I'm stuck here: dragonageconfessions.tumblr.com/post/9140147762

Modifié par Naqey, 13 septembre 2011 - 11:32 .

[LT123]

@Naqey

You can rival Anders and still side with the mages at the end. It's not totally out of left field-if you agree to help Anders with the Justice quest, he says something along the lines of "You surprise me, Hawke. I guess all these years spent ranting haven't been in vain."

Unfortunately, at the Gallows he gives the same let's be fugitives together speech that he does on friendship, but oh well.

Rivalry path also makes the split between personalities more obvious because you get the McCrazyPants rambling after the Justice quest and angry glowing Justice at the end of the argument during Anders' final Questioning Beliefs question.

[Naqey]

Sure, you can go down the rivalry path and still side with the mages IN THE END. But to oppose him, you have to speak against mages more than once. It would be a little strange to suddenly side with them at the very end. What I felt important was to express my activley pro-mage stance throughout the game, and yet oppose Anders way of doing things. Sure, some options that we are given point in that direction, but it doesn't feel like a thorough standpoint which one can follow through wholely.

[Naqey]

Sorry, double post  

Modifié par Naqey, 13 septembre 2011 - 12:11 .

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...

I'm pretty sure this must have been discussed millions of times, over and over again (but since I'm new to the DA2 forums, I'm not really up to date in this respect), but I don't agree that Anders and Justice have really, truly merged. I know, Anders keeps saying that, keeps saying that he IS Justice, and Justice is him, but there are enough instances when this doesn't seem to hold true. Otherwise the whole "passenger in my own skin" thing wouldn't make any sense (www.youtube.com/watch). Of course, in the end it's up to everyone to decide which version of Ander's story they want to take as the "true one", but I like to think that the whole "I AM Justice" rhetoric is rather something Anders wants to make himself believe, so he doesn't suffer so much from the obvious split between the two personalities. It's more soothing to think "well, after all that IS me" rather than "damnit, I'm a prisioner in my own body!"

Or, the ambiguous hints that Anders gives you that there is still some degree of separation ("Justice does not approve of my obsession with you") is the soothing lie that Anders maintains to help him live with himself and his past. Because if he did admit to himself (and to Hawke) that they were fully and completely merged, then Anders would have to admit that he was capable of literally tearing Rolan's head off and drinking his blood.

Anders is generally pretty good about owning his own faults. Within reason, of course. He admits that the merger was his own doing and that no one else is to blame for it. He takes ownership of his own weakness and petty failings. But, like I said, there are limits. When it comes to the more monstrous things he has done and plans to do, it is too tempting to put his hands in the air and say "It wasn't me, it was Justice!" And we already know that with or without Justice, Anders is not immune to temptation. If he were, he would never give in to Hawke at all.

There are moments when the facets of Anders that are Anders are submerged. Justice is capable of assuming direct control. That does not mean that Justice is a separate entity. Even ordinary, non-possessed people are capable of shutting down their emotions to deal with what would otherwise be overwhelming events. Emergency workers do it all the time. It leads to PTSD, though, which may be a contributing factor in Anders's collapse.

Probably, my Hawke would not try to separate Justice and Anders. If he could do it without destroying Anders, he would, but he would not take the risk. What he might do instead is accept that the man he loves will always be the way he is and rather than try to exorcise the spirit, try to heal the spirit instead. Turn Vengeance back into Justice. Of course, if it turned out that there really was a way to separate them without destroying Anders, he would be all over it. Of course, that, too would involve risks. He fell in love with Anders after the merger. If the merger was reversed, he might not know his lover anymore.

[Heidenreich]

ekurian wrote...

Just popping in here before I get back to my current DA2 playthrough- in which I've romanced Fenris for the first time.

And lemme tell, you, it was hard D: Because I was friends with Anders, I kept getting the impression that he loves Hawke. Especially his little talk on the Justice mission when he says 'Don't you want someone more open minded?'

The whole thing has been a matter of me leaving Anders behind on most missions so I don't end up running of to him to hug him better ><

BUT, it has been an enlightening experience. One, I no longer hate Fenris! Two, it's finally given me the courage to make a playthrough in which I intend to rival Anders. (Though I will never side with the Templars. Did it once, never again.)

Anyway, that's my babble over, so I ask you- any advice on rivaling Anders without me breaking down and wanting to cuddle him?

I'm glad you got to see the lovey side of our AngstyTevinter Elf! A lot of people dislike him on principle and never actually do any talking with him to find out if he's a good character or not. I'm super glad you SEEE it now 

That being said (and I had to say it, because I'm a nerdy fengirl), there's really no way to rival Anders with out wanting to snuggle him up and be like "shooosh, shooosh, its okay, its alright. Mama Hawke is here." *pet pet pet*

Because if you like Anders at all, its going to HURT. He's so frazzled and your Hawke is SUCH A DICK.. and.. and.. *sobs just thinking about it*

I've done it once. It was hard. I .. don't think I can do it again.

[maxernst]

Naqey wrote...

Sure, you can go down the rivalry path and still side with the mages IN THE END. But to oppose him, you have to speak against mages more than once. It would be a little strange to suddenly side with them at the very end. What I felt important was to express my activley pro-mage stance throughout the game, and yet oppose Anders way of doing things. Sure, some options that we are given point in that direction, but it doesn't feel like a thorough standpoint which one can follow through wholely.

That's one of my problems with the whole rivalry mechanic.  The game essentially penalizes you with disloyal companions for taking moderate stances, while rewarding you if you consistently act in direct opposition to the character's wishes. 

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

maxernst wrote...

Naqey wrote...

Sure, you can go down the rivalry path and still side with the mages IN THE END. But to oppose him, you have to speak against mages more than once. It would be a little strange to suddenly side with them at the very end. What I felt important was to express my activley pro-mage stance throughout the game, and yet oppose Anders way of doing things. Sure, some options that we are given point in that direction, but it doesn't feel like a thorough standpoint which one can follow through wholely.

That's one of my problems with the whole rivalry mechanic.  The game essentially penalizes you with disloyal companions for taking moderate stances, while rewarding you if you consistently act in direct opposition to the character's wishes. 

I agree. The rivalry/friend mechanic is an excellent idea, but needs some serious fine tuning. I found that I had to leave Fenris behind on quests where I would likely get friend points for siding against slavers, or killing certain mages, because it would bring me back to neutral territory, with no aknowledgement if the points where I either agreed or disagreed with Fenris. But I think it can be fine tuned, and i hope they do.

[ForgeDark]

berelinde wrote...

Naqey wrote...

I'm pretty sure this must have been discussed millions of times, over and over again (but since I'm new to the DA2 forums, I'm not really up to date in this respect), but I don't agree that Anders and Justice have really, truly merged. I know, Anders keeps saying that, keeps saying that he IS Justice, and Justice is him, but there are enough instances when this doesn't seem to hold true. Otherwise the whole "passenger in my own skin" thing wouldn't make any sense (www.youtube.com/watch). Of course, in the end it's up to everyone to decide which version of Ander's story they want to take as the "true one", but I like to think that the whole "I AM Justice" rhetoric is rather something Anders wants to make himself believe, so he doesn't suffer so much from the obvious split between the two personalities. It's more soothing to think "well, after all that IS me" rather than "damnit, I'm a prisioner in my own body!"

Or, the ambiguous hints that Anders gives you that there is still some degree of separation ("Justice does not approve of my obsession with you") is the soothing lie that Anders maintains to help him live with himself and his past. Because if he did admit to himself (and to Hawke) that they were fully and completely merged, then Anders would have to admit that he was capable of literally tearing Rolan's head off and drinking his blood.

Anders is generally pretty good about owning his own faults. Within reason, of course. He admits that the merger was his own doing and that no one else is to blame for it. He takes ownership of his own weakness and petty failings. But, like I said, there are limits. When it comes to the more monstrous things he has done and plans to do, it is too tempting to put his hands in the air and say "It wasn't me, it was Justice!" And we already know that with or without Justice, Anders is not immune to temptation. If he were, he would never give in to Hawke at all.

There are moments when the facets of Anders that are Anders are submerged. Justice is capable of assuming direct control. That does not mean that Justice is a separate entity. Even ordinary, non-possessed people are capable of shutting down their emotions to deal with what would otherwise be overwhelming events. Emergency workers do it all the time. It leads to PTSD, though, which may be a contributing factor in Anders's collapse.

Probably, my Hawke would not try to separate Justice and Anders. If he could do it without destroying Anders, he would, but he would not take the risk. What he might do instead is accept that the man he loves will always be the way he is and rather than try to exorcise the spirit, try to heal the spirit instead. Turn Vengeance back into Justice. Of course, if it turned out that there really was a way to separate them without destroying Anders, he would be all over it. Of course, that, too would involve risks. He fell in love with Anders after the merger. If the merger was reversed, he might not know his lover anymore.

Plus after 10 years, would Anders even know who he was anymore? I sure wouldn't want my personality dragged back in time

[SurelyForth]

I am so confused by Anders/Justice, which makes writing from Anders' perspective a chore. I like the idea that Anders has an innate understanding of what thoughts are his own and what thoughts belong to Justice, in the beginning. Like he still knows how he thinks and what he would think in any given situation, and when he has a thought that doesn't fit, then it's Justice. Over time, though, he stops being able to see the difference until it's all a Janders slurry in there.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Arquen wrote...


Edit for TOP and HILARIOUSNESS



by Land of the Sky on Tumblr

Epic. :wub:

[Sialater]

SurelyForth wrote...

I am so confused by Anders/Justice, which makes writing from Anders' perspective a chore. I like the idea that Anders has an innate understanding of what thoughts are his own and what thoughts belong to Justice, in the beginning. Like he still knows how he thinks and what he would think in any given situation, and when he has a thought that doesn't fit, then it's Justice. Over time, though, he stops being able to see the difference until it's all a Janders slurry in there.

This is why I may have to avoid writing from Anders' POV in my fic.

[SurelyForth]

And other things, because my brain is wonky today:

And I am not a fan of trying to remove Justice post DA2 if you friendmanced him. I think there's just too much potential to destroy Anders because Justice is part of him. It would be like ripping out a bit of someone's soul, and I imagine the shock to his system would probably be devastating.

The only way I would entertain the idea is if it was something he asked for. This goes with Hawke being reactive, but I can't see my Hawke effectively sitting him down and being like "I love you, but this whole portion of you is wrong, wrong, wrong and we need to get rid of it." I mean...it's him now. He really is a blending of the two, so Justice is no more the problem than Anders is. If you get what I'm saying.

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

And other things, because my brain is wonky today:

And I am not a fan of trying to remove Justice post DA2 if you friendmanced him. I think there's just too much potential to destroy Anders because Justice is part of him. It would be like ripping out a bit of someone's soul, and I imagine the shock to his system would probably be devastating.

The only way I would entertain the idea is if it was something he asked for. This goes with Hawke being reactive, but I can't see my Hawke effectively sitting him down and being like "I love you, but this whole portion of you is wrong, wrong, wrong and we need to get rid of it." I mean...it's him now. He really is a blending of the two, so Justice is no more the problem than Anders is. If you get what I'm saying.

I completely agree with this. If my brain wasn't so darn loopy today, I'd expound  upon it more. As it is, I'll just say this. A completely friendmanced Anders seems content with what he has become. He embraces his new role as the cause of mages and eager to keep fighting. I can't see that Anders wanting to try to undo the merger.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 13 septembre 2011 - 03:37 .

[berelinde]

SurelyForth wrote...

And other things, because my brain is wonky today:

And I am not a fan of trying to remove Justice post DA2 if you friendmanced him. I think there's just too much potential to destroy Anders because Justice is part of him. It would be like ripping out a bit of someone's soul, and I imagine the shock to his system would probably be devastating.

The only way I would entertain the idea is if it was something he asked for. This goes with Hawke being reactive, but I can't see my Hawke effectively sitting him down and being like "I love you, but this whole portion of you is wrong, wrong, wrong and we need to get rid of it." I mean...it's him now. He really is a blending of the two, so Justice is no more the problem than Anders is. If you get what I'm saying.

*nods* The first part is kind of what I was getting at. Friendmanced (the only way I willingly play) Anders is what he is. Seeking to change him at this point makes a lie of the 10 years you have spent together, 7 of which have been as lovers. Better to help them be happy and healthy with the situation as it stands. Plus, while separating the two is probably impossible, there's nothing that says that the whole Janders blend can't be helped.

As for the second part... yeah. Kinda hard to justify overriding someone else's free will, no matter how proactive your Hawke. Doesn't mean that you let them spiral further into delusion. But no yanking souls out by the roots.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Don't think me mad but I just have to--

FINALLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!

Goddamnit, I've been looking for thread. I lost it somehow and couldn't find it no matter what search terms I used and it was a sad and dark time in my life.

Hi. :]

[Sialater]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Don't think me mad but I just have to--

FINALLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!

Goddamnit, I've been looking for thread. I lost it somehow and couldn't find it no matter what search terms I used and it was a sad and dark time in my life.

Hi. :]

Fen!  Your excellent taste in Pixel Men continues I see.