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[Naqey]

Hm... I might be wrong (subjective perception and all), but I always had the impression that Anders' "Me and Justice are one and the same" and "I still feel like a person seperate from Justice"  statements were made in different situations. Let me try to explain what I'm getting at.

In my mind, all the "we are ONE" statements of his are spoken in a very angry, defiant tone. And you know what it's like, if you are angry, and want to defy somebody, you usually tend to get more irrational than you usually would be. Anders definitely does have a temper. And in these situations, you will say a lot of things just to prove your point. So if somebody suggests that Anders has only done something because Justice made him, then Anders might feel inclined to retort along the lines, no, it was OUR decision, and to drive his point home even further, he would stress that they are in fact the same person.

On the other hand side, all the statements pointing to a distinctiveness of Anders and Justice where spoken more... in an introspective, melancholic manner (Anders' that is, since Justice only comes out when he is enraged anyway). Now my implying that statements spoken in a more reflective manner are more "authentic" might be the weakest point of that argument, but still...

But no matter what, where I have to wholeheartedly join bereline, eyeofhorus, surelyforth and yamisnuffles is... regardless of whether they are still seperate entities or not... I don't think my Hawke would put much effort into trying to seperate the two. Being a non-mage himself and having quite some respect for mages in general, he would be **** scared that something might go wrong and Anders would get hurt. I know he's probably a little pathetic in his weakness for Anders, but he'd rather have a nooby Anders than none at all.
Still... argh, this is so difficult! I don't know if trying to make the merger perfect and trying to help Anders make peace with it is the right way. Justice will always be Justice. There is no real way of "calming him down" or making him "more moderate". He wouldn't be the spirit he is, the impersonification of Justice if it were otherwise. But that means he will always stay the crazy revolutionist for whom the ends justify the means... and that is the most destructive path that Anders can possibly be headed down... poor Hawke. Whatever he does. He can't do it right...

Modifié par Naqey, 13 septembre 2011 - 04:25 .

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...
Still... argh, this is so difficult! I don't know if trying to make the merger perfect and trying to help Anders make peace with it is the right way. Justice will always be Justice. There is no real way of "calming him down" or making him "more moderate". He wouldn't be the spirit he is, the impersonification of Justice if it were otherwise. But that means he will always stay the crazy revolutionist for whom the ends justify the means... and that is the most destructive path that Anders can possibly be headed down... poor Hawke. Whatever he does. He can't do it right...

Justice *should* always be Justice, but that isn't quite what happened. When he merged with Anders, they both became Vengeance. Maybe what Hawke needs to do is enlist the aid of a spirit of Mercy to talk them both off the ledge. Feynriel has friends in the Fade. Maybe he can help. And he owes Hawke a favor.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Sialater wrote...

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

Don't think me mad but I just have to--

FINALLYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!

Goddamnit, I've been looking for thread. I lost it somehow and couldn't find it no matter what search terms I used and it was a sad and dark time in my life.

Hi. :]

Fen!  Your excellent taste in Pixel Men continues I see.

I should've known I'd find you here, Sia! And yes, my tastes have yet to wane.

[FenrisDeSolar]

When it comes to separating Anders from Justice, I would prefer to see it done than to keep being told that it is impossible.

We could pull the demon out of Connor, and achieved a half-miracle with Feynriel.

I don't see how Justice and Anders are special in this case. I would say, though, that I wouldn't force or even try to convince Anders to do it, and I don't see that he would want to if you've pursued the Friendship with him. Though as a Rival I could see that he might find their union much too dangerous to carry on; though that said I wouldn't want to be rid of Justice completely, and wouldn't encourage anything that could kill either Justice or Anders. I just want Justice to find another body.

Even if Justice leaves Anders, assuming he suffers no averse effects, I don't think his personality would change very much. He has still seen and felt everything that Justice has, and I think that from being merged for so long that they might have come to be very similar to one another even as separate entities, whilst growing as one. Does that make sense? No?

Okay, I'll try again on a day when I'm not sleep-deprived and hungry.

EDIT: So long as Anders is alive, aware and not tranquil in the next game, I'll be happy.

Modifié par FenrisDeSolar, 13 septembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Bah. Once again, it's my stupid offhand comment that stirs up the debate. Ah well, at least we have some debate to stir!

As for the question of "Anders and Justice: one guy or not?" My opinion is that it doesn't matter. If Anders says "Justice does not approve," is he saying "I think this might be a bad idea and a distraction," or is it someone else? Regardless, something in that body has its doubts, and I think it may be, in part, because you're not as proactive as it would like. Whether that thing is Anders, Justice, or JAnders is irrelevant. There's something there that you need to communicate with... communicate with it!

It's also irrelevant because I'm not in favor of separating them, either. But if Anders sometimes feels as if there's something inside him called Justice, and at other times feels that he's just one being, I think he could benefit from understanding why he feels differently at differen times. I think he would benefit a great deal from thinking about things, rather than just angsting about them, which really seems to be all he ever does.

When I say Anders would benefit from help, I don't mean a ritual to separate him, or forcibly taking him from Kirkwall. I mean that early on, when he says he'll hurt you, he needs to be asked why he thinks that. When he tells you Justice has been corrupted and is full of anger, I want to say "Ok, well if he was good before, let's see if we can't get him calmed down somewhat." After Ella, he needs someone to say "Let's see if we can figure out why this particular thing happened, and prevent it from happening again." He needs to be able to trust himself.

The thing is, I will acknowledge that there are a lot of Wardens who would try to seperate them... which would, very likely, be precisely the wrong thing to do. In those cases it's better that he's with someone who lets him come to his own terms with things. The Warden's way of doing things can result in better results, or in worse ones.

[Naqey]

berelinde wrote...


Justice *should* always be Justice, but that isn't quite what happened. When he merged with Anders, they both became Vengeance. Maybe what Hawke needs to do is enlist the aid of a spirit of Mercy to talk them both off the ledge. Feynriel has friends in the Fade. Maybe he can help. And he owes Hawke a favor.

Justice... Vengenance... I don't think it's much of a difference. They are both abstract principles personified. And being principles, to them the ends will always justify the means.

[berelinde]

@CGG: This thread thrives on debate. Just glad to have something worth debating. Also, getting Anders out of Kirkwall physcially might not be a bad idea, one way or another. Hellmouth aside, there's a war on. If your friends, you've got mages to free, rabble to rouse, etc. If you're rivals, well, Anders has gone to a better place himself.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Well it's more that I'm more interested in the active vs. reactive aspect of the debate, rather than the "what is the status of Justice or Anders and should they be separated?" which is a subject that I've pretty much already fully realized my opinion on, and in which there is little hope of new information surfacing.

Not that I really mind it, of course. Better some debate than the infernal silence that has plagued us of late.

[berelinde]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Well it's more that I'm more interested in the active vs. reactive aspect of the debate,....

Unless they give us the ability to type in the dialogue ourselves, there's only so many ways we can change Hawke's behavior. I kind of avoid thinking about the whole reactive/proactive thing, to be honest. It isn't talking about Hawke's behavior, it's talking about his/her motivation, and that's going to vary from Hawke to Hawke, or at the very least from player to player.

Edit: And this thread does seem to be subject to fits of sporadic posting. We'll spend two weeks on one page and then go through five pages between lunch break and quitting time.

Modifié par berelinde, 13 septembre 2011 - 06:28 .

[Heidenreich]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

When it comes to separating Anders from Justice, I would prefer to see it done than to keep being told that it is impossible.

We could pull the demon out of Connor, and achieved a half-miracle with Feynriel.

I don't see how Justice and Anders are special in this case. I would say, though, that I wouldn't force or even try to convince Anders to do it, and I don't see that he would want to if you've pursued the Friendship with him. Though as a Rival I could see that he might find their union much too dangerous to carry on; though that said I wouldn't want to be rid of Justice completely, and wouldn't encourage anything that could kill either Justice or Anders. I just want Justice to find another body.

Even if Justice leaves Anders, assuming he suffers no averse effects, I don't think his personality would change very much. He has still seen and felt everything that Justice has, and I think that from being merged for so long that they might have come to be very similar to one another even as separate entities, whilst growing as one. Does that make sense? No?

Okay, I'll try again on a day when I'm not sleep-deprived and hungry.

EDIT: So long as Anders is alive, aware and not tranquil in the next game, I'll be happy.

The Connor situation and the Feynriel situation are -different-. Conner was possesed, yes, but not fully, and not by a demon/spirit OUTSIDE the fade. The creature didn't confront connor face to face, and didn't have full control over his body. In fact she only had minimal control, at best, because she couldn't even take complete control (via abomniationing)

Feynriel isn't posessed at all. He's lost in the fade. We simply go wake him up. -- much as we do with our companions in DA:O in the Fade.

Thus neither of those are of use when it comes to Justice. Justice was OUTSIDE the fade. He merged COMPLETELY with Anders. He did not "merge" this way with Kristoff because Kristoff was dead, and for all tenses and purposes, wasn't there at all. Memories are stored in the brain. so even a dead Kristoff would have living memories.The Spirit of Life itself though, was snuffed out.

Thus they had no idea what to expect. Thus Justice can't just get up and walk away, like he could with Kristoff. Thus Anders's spirit was irreverically changed.

[Sialater]

It also makes him entirely different than any other abomination we see other than what Marethari becomes, since that Pride demon was also similarly trapped outside the Fade.

[Heidenreich]

KITTEN

[Sialater]

by: I-rina

[Naqey]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

When I say Anders would benefit from help, I don't mean a ritual to separate him, or forcibly taking him from Kirkwall. I mean that early on, when he says he'll hurt you, he needs to be asked why he thinks that. When he tells you Justice has been corrupted and is full of anger, I want to say "Ok, well if he was good before, let's see if we can't get him calmed down somewhat." After Ella, he needs someone to say "Let's see if we can figure out why this particular thing happened, and prevent it from happening again." He needs to be able to trust himself.

The thing is, I will acknowledge that there are a lot of Wardens who would try to seperate them... which would, very likely, be precisely the wrong thing to do. In those cases it's better that he's with someone who lets him come to his own terms with things. The Warden's way of doing things can result in better results, or in worse ones.

I'm not sure even your Hawke-style proactive approach  (that is, considerably less agressive than any radical action the Warden might have preferred) would have worked, CGG... let's consider Hawke would have said "can't we calm Justice down again?" what would have been the possible answer? I can almost hear Anders snippy retort: "Not as long as the plight of the mages doesn't end". And regarding the Ella incident, I think Anders must have fretted over "how can I prevent this from happening" all throughout the years to follow. He is just too... fierce. Too... intense. It's a cold, inhuman principle "burnt" into his very soul. Justice is relentless if not kept in check. All efforts of attenuating it (the principle)/him (the spirit) through the moral sense and human kindness that Anders might have had seemed to have failed. I just don't see any way...

So what it all boils down to is: whether proactive or reactive approach, there was simply no way things could have ended anywhere else than where they did? All road would have led us to the one point, that burning square in night time Lowtown, when we have to decide to either take on the burden of trying to handle a totally screwed renegade Anders, hated by the whole of Kirkwall, or to put an end to his suffering and give him a (merciful?) death? 

I can't stop pondering over this... is Anders beyond hope? 


Edit: dawwww, KITTENS!!! And suddenly all the gloomy fretting about whether or not Anders is beyond hope seems irrelevant. *Seized by an intense longing to cuddle kittens AND Anders* 

Modifié par Naqey, 13 septembre 2011 - 09:34 .

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...
I can't stop pondering over this... is Anders beyond hope? 

Yes. He will eventually die of the taint. Before that, there's always hope.

[phaonica]

Heidenreich wrote...

Thus neither of those are of use when it comes to Justice. Justice was OUTSIDE the fade. He merged COMPLETELY with Anders. He did not "merge" this way with Kristoff because Kristoff was dead, and for all tenses and purposes, wasn't there at all. Memories are stored in the brain. so even a dead Kristoff would have living memories.The Spirit of Life itself though, was snuffed out

But isn't Anders coming out of the Fade when he and Justice first merge, according to the Anders short story? I thought they were in the Fade when they merged.

[FenrisDeSolar]

Heidenreich wrote...

The Connor situation and the Feynriel situation are -different-. Conner was possesed, yes, but not fully, and not by a demon/spirit OUTSIDE the fade. The creature didn't confront connor face to face, and didn't have full control over his body. In fact she only had minimal control, at best, because she couldn't even take complete control (via abomniationing)

Feynriel isn't posessed at all. He's lost in the fade. We simply go wake him up. -- much as we do with our companions in DA:O in the Fade.

Thus neither of those are of use when it comes to Justice. Justice was OUTSIDE the fade. He merged COMPLETELY with Anders. He did not "merge" this way with Kristoff because Kristoff was dead, and for all tenses and purposes, wasn't there at all. Memories are stored in the brain. so even a dead Kristoff would have living memories.The Spirit of Life itself though, was snuffed out.

Thus they had no idea what to expect. Thus Justice can't just get up and walk away, like he could with Kristoff. Thus Anders's spirit was irreverically changed.

In the case of both Connor and Feynriel we're told that what we need to do to help them is going to be very difficult and very dangerous and blah, blah, in the end it can only be achieved because our protagonists are there. Hurrah. Well, so long as there is a protagonist I will hope for a solution.

I don't think separating Justice and Anders is impossible regardless of the manner in which they merged, and I'm willing to bet that the answers could be found in Tevinter, or through Flemeth. So I hope that this is a possible venue in DA3, for those who want it, or if it's Anders' choice (which would be awesome) and he wanted to do it.

Still, I'm not desperate to pull Justice and Anders apart, but it would be nice if they could be two separate characters again. Even if they've both been irrevocably changed in terms of personalities there must be some way to distinguish between their spirits. If there isn't I'll probably end up making one. In fanfiction. :/

[FenrisDeSolar]

phaonica wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

Thus neither of those are of use when it comes to Justice. Justice was OUTSIDE the fade. He merged COMPLETELY with Anders. He did not "merge" this way with Kristoff because Kristoff was dead, and for all tenses and purposes, wasn't there at all. Memories are stored in the brain. so even a dead Kristoff would have living memories.The Spirit of Life itself though, was snuffed out

But isn't Anders coming out of the Fade when he and Justice first merge, according to the Anders short story? I thought they were in the Fade when they merged.

That's how I understood it. But he sort of awakens at that very moment, so I don't know for sure.

You can always read it again.

[phaonica]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

That's how I understood it. But he sort of awakens at that very moment, so I don't know for sure.

You can always read it again.

Hm. Maybe he's just remembering the Fade and not actually leaving it.

[LT123]

FenrisDeSolar wrote...

phaonica wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

Thus neither of those are of use when it comes to Justice. Justice was OUTSIDE the fade. He merged COMPLETELY with Anders. He did not "merge" this way with Kristoff because Kristoff was dead, and for all tenses and purposes, wasn't there at all. Memories are stored in the brain. so even a dead Kristoff would have living memories.The Spirit of Life itself though, was snuffed out

But isn't Anders coming out of the Fade when he and Justice first merge, according to the Anders short story? I thought they were in the Fade when they merged.

That's how I understood it. But he sort of awakens at that very moment, so I don't know for sure.

You can always read it again.

Looks like he merged with Justice, started glowing and raving about a revolution, passed out, and then the story begins as he's waking up.

Also, that Monty Python gif is the funniest thing I've seen all day.

Five sovereigns says the coming announcement will be about Redemption, not DLC, but I can still hope.

Modifié par LT123, 13 septembre 2011 - 11:16 .

[phaonica]

LT123 wrote...


Looks like he merged with Justice, started glowing and raving about a revolution, passed out, and then the story begins as he's waking up.

Where was Justice just before the merge? Not standing nearby in Kristoff's body; that's not mentioned at all.

[LT123]

phaonica wrote...

LT123 wrote...


Looks like he merged with Justice, started glowing and raving about a revolution, passed out, and then the story begins as he's waking up.

Where was Justice just before the merge? Not standing nearby in Kristoff's body; that's not mentioned at all.

Huh. I don't know. Anders had just made the deal, but I don't know if Justice had to be nearby for them to merge.

Edit: I get the impression that Justice had just offered, Anders thought about it for a second and went "Great, let's do this," they merged, Anders starts glowing and passes out, then wakes up kicking himself that he made the deal where Rolan could see.

And presumably Kristoff's dead body just fell over and it's just not mentioned.

...I used the word "just" way too many times.

Modifié par LT123, 13 septembre 2011 - 11:33 .

[phaonica]

LT123 wrote...

Huh. I don't know. Anders had just made the deal, but I don't know if Justice had to be nearby for them to merge.

Edit: I get the impression that Justice had just offered, Anders thought about it for a second and went "Great, let's do this," they merged, Anders starts glowing and passes out, then wakes up kicking himself that he made the deal where Rolan could see.

 And presumably Kristoff's dead body just fell over and it's just not mentioned.

It just seems strange that if Kristoff was around that the other's wouldn't mention that they both passed out at the same time, and only Anders woke up. And Anders apparently spoke to Justice immediately before their joining.

[LT123]

phaonica wrote...

It just seems strange that if Kristoff was around that the other's wouldn't mention that they both passed out at the same time, and only Anders woke up. And Anders apparently spoke to Justice immediately before their joining.

It is strange. Maybe they were too focused on the crazy glowing mage to pay any attention to the dead body falling over.