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[phaonica]

LT123 wrote...

It is strange. Maybe they were too focused on the crazy glowing mage to pay any attention to the dead body falling over.

Or maybe Justice came to Anders through the Fade. Maybe Justice had to move through the Fade to transfer bodies or something. 

I don't know. I'm just not entirely convinced yet that Anders and Justice can't be separated leaving them mosly intact.

Edit: uh oh, top. I am not prepared

Modifié par phaonica, 14 septembre 2011 - 12:14 .

[LT123]

Although I was walking into the Chantry saying, "Come on. This is Thedas. Anders' friend is going to already be Tranquil," that quest makes me sad every time.

Nice picture.

I'm not convinced they can't be separated either, mainly because no one's really tried yet. I wonder why Justice can body-jump from a dead body (he admits he could leave Kristoff's body in Awakening) but not from a live one.

Modifié par LT123, 14 septembre 2011 - 12:41 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LT123 wrote...

I'm not convinced they can't be separated either, mainly because no one's really tried yet. I wonder why Justice can body-jump from a dead body (he admits he could leave Kristoff's body in Awakening) but not from a live one.

The live one is still inhabited by a full personality and soul. Given that you have two entities inhabiting the same body willingly, it gets more complicated.

[phaonica]

LT123 wrote...

I'm not convinced they can't be separated either, mainly because no one's really tried yet. I wonder why Justice can body-jump from a dead body (he admits he could leave Kristoff's body in Awakening) but not from a live one.

I'm mostly not convinced that Anders being possessed is much different than Conner being possessed. Neither one of them have their spirits manifest fully outside of the fade, and both seem to switch back and forth between their own personalities and their spirits' personalities.

[SurelyForth]

I think that, could Justice leave Anders the way Connor's demon could leave him, he would have (he does mention missing the Fade). Were he his own whole presence just jammed into Anders' body, I can't imagine he could be happy in there. He's 99% not in control of anything that's going on, and even has to sit around while Anders falls in love and has sex. Imagine being trapped in the same bed as your roommate while they get it on with one of your acquaintances. Wouldn't you want to check out for that, if you could? And that's not even close to Anders/Justice's situation.

And even working from the Fade through Connor, the demon changed him. Eamon comments on it, and Marethari indicates as much. Even if Justice is removed, the chances of Anders mental survival are not very high, and that's if Justice is a lot like Connor's demon. If he's actually completely within Anders and they really have merged, I honestly do not think Anders could handle the impact of losing something that is so much part of him.

Also, my guess is that Anders isn't really in the Fade in the short story, but it's like when Justice's presence brings Karl out of tranquility for a few moments. That moment of him being control creates a Fade in the non-Fade, and that's what Anders is experiencing.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

When it comes to separating Anders and Justice, I don't know if it's possible, I don't think it's possible to know, and I don't care (this is not to discourage others from discussing it, mind you.)

As for why I don't want to try it just to see, I tend to err on the side of thinking the Dalish know something about lost magics. Marethari says that, in cases where possession is reversed, often the soul is damaged, and more vulnerable to attack in the future. I don't take this as a universal truth, but I consider it a very real risk to consider, which is why I wouldn't just try it to see, unless Anders specifically really wanted it and was aware of the risk.

As for why I don't care... I don't care because being merged with a spirit of Justice isn't Anders' problem, in and of itself. Anders' problem is that he thinks of himself as a cursed monster doomed to a life he doesn't want, who will end up hurting anyone who gets close to him.

He thinks this for most of the game. Yeah there are bright spots if he's with Hawke, but there are also dark spots, periods of madness and paranoia. At the end, if an aggro Hawke confronts him about the potion, he says in the most resigned voice ever "I'm a liar, I'm a monster, I never said I'd do anything but hurt you." He never stops thinking that...

I want to help Anders reduce his angsting much earlier in the game, rather than letting is spiral out of control, and I want he and Justice to form a gestalt entity that retains slightly more of Anders's wants and needs and personality. Remember what Nate said about giving without taking, Justice? you're not doing that now.

Does this still end in a courtyard, with a red pillar of flame shooting through the sky? Yeah, I rather think it does. There's no other way for it to end. In steam engine times, people build steam engines, and in chantry bomb times, people bomb chantries. The question is, how much collateral damage is there, and how much of himself does Anders lose?

I want to get to the point where the answer to those two questions is "less" and "very little." I want to get to an ending where instead of a crazy, anguished, guilt-ridden fanatic, he's a practical, world-wise, devoted crusader. They can achieve the same things, do the same things, but one of them is consumed in the doing, while the other can still laugh at the world, in the small hours of the night, when the fires paint the sky.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 14 septembre 2011 - 02:32 .

[phaonica]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think that, could Justice leave Anders the way Connor's demon could leave him, he would have (he does mention missing the Fade). Were he his own whole presence just jammed into Anders' body, I can't imagine he could be happy in there. He's 99% not in control of anything that's going on, and even has to sit around while Anders falls in love and has sex. Imagine being trapped in the same bed as your roommate while they get it on with one of your acquaintances. Wouldn't you want to check out for that, if you could? And that's not even close to Anders/Justice's situation.

Would Justice leave before he'd accomplished his task, though? 

And even working from the Fade through Connor, the demon changed him. Eamon comments on it, and Marethari indicates as much. Even if Justice is removed, the chances of Anders mental survival are not very high, and that's if Justice is a lot like Connor's demon. If he's actually completely within Anders and they really have merged, I honestly do not think Anders could handle the impact of losing something that is so much part of him.

He'd certainly be changed, again, but I don't know if there is evidence that he'd never create another new concept of self after Justice.

Also, my guess is that Anders isn't really in the Fade in the short story, but it's like when Justice's presence brings Karl out of tranquility for a few moments. That moment of him being control creates a Fade in the non-Fade, and that's what Anders is experiencing.

Perhaps. The conditions of their joining were being used as evidence of how Connor's possession and Anders' possession are different, but I don't know if the situation of their joining is clear enough to make that assessment.

[phaonica]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

As for why I don't care... I don't care because being merged with a spirit of Justice isn't Anders' problem, in and of itself. Anders' problem is that he thinks of himself as a cursed monster doomed to a life he doesn't want, who will end up hurting anyone who gets close to him.

...

I want to help Anders reduce his angsting much earlier in the game, rather than letting is spiral out of control, and I want he and Justice to form a gestalt entity that retains slightly more of Anders's wants and needs and personality. Remember what Nate said about giving without taking, Justice? you're not doing that now. 

Oh, I agree. If Justice wasn't practically enslaving Anders, separating them probably wouldn't be much of an issue if you were trying to help Anders.

[leggywillow]

SurelyForth wrote...
And even working from the Fade through Connor, the demon changed him. Eamon comments on it, and Marethari indicates as much. Even if Justice is removed, the chances of Anders mental survival are not very high, and that's if Justice is a lot like Connor's demon. If he's actually completely within Anders and they really have merged, I honestly do not think Anders could handle the impact of losing something that is so much part of him.

And judging by previous comments Jennifer Hepler has made about the two, I have a feeling that this is more of what she had in mind.

[Ashwraith]

*snerkle* 
*hee*

Oh gods, this YouTube video. 'Tis golden.

[Aggie Punbot]

Anders, noooooooooooooooooooo!

But heh, that video is great!

[Dave of Canada]

Played to this tune (used in the DX:HR 2010 E3 trailer).

*Images of the Chantry being destroyed, a winged Anders flies into the urine laser beam and screams as his wings are destroyed. Anders wakes up in Darktown, he gazes upon his golem hands*

I never asked for this.
If you want to make enemies, try to change something.
The year is 9:40 Dragon
It is a time of great revolution
And magical enhancement
It is also a time of chaos and conspiracy
I don't even know who's side I'm on.

Riots continue in the streets of Val Royeux, protestors have gathered outside the White Spire, one of the world's leaders in the Mage / Templar war.

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genetivi.

Grand Enchanter: These people, Anders. They're like hounds, never stopping the chase. Always chasing after us with lies and ignorant masses. I need you to find them. They can not stop us, they can not stop the future.

I never had a choice with what happened to me.

First Enchant Irving: How do you feel, Anders? Your body may heal, your spirits may not be so resilient.

Religion has more power than the monarchy
Everyone's fighting for power, for control.

Blood Mage Thrall: He... lp... me!

---

Knight-Vigiliant: Maker take you!

---

The Mages have started casting on the crowd!

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of a Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genetivi.

---

Knight-Vigiliant: You'll never free them!
Anders: I'll never stop trying!

DEUS AGE: MAGE REVOLUTION.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 14 septembre 2011 - 05:31 .

[Maddcassel]

I'm new here and normally a lurker but I have to comment on this.
I think if Anders wants any sanity at all he MUST merge completely with Justice. Otherwise it will just keep going as the split personality thing and someone will have to put him out of his misery. They weren't a very good match like Wynne and her spirit. Both personalities have to give a little and become something better.

[esper]

Maddcassel wrote...

I'm new here and normally a lurker but I have to comment on this.
I think if Anders wants any sanity at all he MUST merge completely with Justice. Otherwise it will just keep going as the split personality thing and someone will have to put him out of his misery. They weren't a very good match like Wynne and her spirit. Both personalities have to give a little and become something better.

I agree which is why I personallu think that friendship is healhtier for Anders. In that path they seems more one merged personality than rivalry where they are a split personality.

[Naqey]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


Does this still end in a courtyard, with a red pillar of flame shooting through the sky? Yeah, I rather think it does. There's no other way for it to end. In steam engine times, people build steam engines, and in chantry bomb times, people bomb chantries. The question is, how much collateral damage is there, and how much of himself does Anders lose?

I want to get to the point where the answer to those two questions is "less" and "very little." I want to get to an ending where instead of a crazy, anguished, guilt-ridden fanatic, he's a practical, world-wise, devoted crusader. They can achieve the same things, do the same things, but one of them is consumed in the doing, while the other can still laugh at the world, in the small hours of the night, when the fires paint the sky.

Is Justice really "enslaving" Anders? Or is it not rather Anders enslaving Justice? Most of the times we see Anders speaking, Justice appears only in extreme situations. It's almost as if Justice is trapped inside of Anders, and only in situations of uttmost importance does he gain the strength to break through and take controll. Only when he can bear it no longer, because Anders is too much straying from the path that Justice prefers.
In my opinion "to form a gestalt entity that retains slightly more of Anders' wants and needs and personality" is what we may all want (and let's face it, we are all totally biased in favour of  Anders), but out of question. Would that be really... just? I don't think Justice could agree to sustain the merger on these terms.

Ander's real problem is thus only his self-perception? So you basically agree to having the mass murderer, as long as he's fun and can still laugh? Then all we need to do is somehow kill off Anders' moral qualms, his sense that there might be other versions of justice.

Because I think this might actually be one of the core problems: when Justice merges with a human, he takes on that persons dominant sense of justice, his main concers about what should be put right. Thus, when he merged with Kristoff, he was an ardent darkspawn hater. Merged with Anders, he is totally pro-mage. But I feel that a great part of Anders' self-loathing stems from his sense of morality, that feeling of "maybe this isn't the whole picture".

Modifié par Naqey, 14 septembre 2011 - 06:49 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Hello and welcome, Maddcassel.

I agree with you.

I loved Awakening Anders, possibly as much as anyone, but he was weak. I'm not saying he had no strength at all, but he was always afraid. Not in a bad way, and indeed, that was a good portion of why I loved him: he seemed like the kind of guy who would take well to being protected, which isn't most guys. He needed the Warden's protection, more than any other companion before or since. He was clever and kind and soft, even after all that had happened to him.

He was also woefully immature. You can see Nathaniel trying to have legitimate conversations with him, and he just brushes it off. Same with Velanna... when she finally wants to talk with him, he messes it up with his sarcasm and deflection. Adorable, yes. Good policy for winning friends and influencing people? Not so much. And most of his end cards had him running away... he was incapable of feeling safe anywhere, incapable of just... stopping. Turning. Fighting for what he actually wanted.

You can see that in the short story. I want to yell at him "Just wait, I'll be back to rescue you... you don't have to do this!" But he does have to do it. He can't live the rest of his life afraid to leave the commander's side. What if she dies? What if they all die, and leave him? It's good to rely on your friends. It's bad to be incapable of sustaining yourself without them.

This wouldn't be an issue if the world wasn't literally against him. If he could just settle down somewhere with his pretty girl and good meal, but he can't, and he knows he can't. He's reminded of it every second of every day. But he doesn't have the strength to oppose these forces himself, so he gets it the only way he knows how: he borrows it from a friend, but this time one who can never leave him, in a way that makes the strength his own. But he has a healer's heart, and before he gains that strength he doesn't realize that some of what being strong means is hurting those who try to hurt you. Protecting the weak often means hurting the guilty. And this isn't the DC universe, you can't be the exception, fight the good fight while keeping your hands clean and never, ever killing anyone. It's called the good fight for a reason. But though he may have dreamed of raining fireballs down on templars, I don't think he ever actually had. The reality of a death on your hands is something even more profound for a healer. It's something that monsters do.

And that's where the problem started. He needed someone to help him process, someone to help him realize what his new strength means, and how to cope with what he has done, and will be able to do. How to admit to himself that maybe he can fight without becoming a monster. But he did need the strength he gained, and the maturity he won. It could simply have come more gently.

[Never]

That video is too freaking cute. I'm an apostate too!

[Naqey]

Maybe it's just that I am somehow unable to really wrap my head around the idea of justice personified. And it doesn't matter that Anders claims that in the merger, Justice has become Vegenance. The same set of problems applies for both of them.

It's an abstract idea. What is justice, after all? We all have our individual interpretations of what is just and what is not. There is no "abstract" (that is, objective, non-individual) justice, only social conventions, kind of common understandings/agreements on the matter. Therefore I always assumed that in merging with somebody (and here I include Kristoff - whether it is an actual merger or not doesn't really matter, since Justice still has access to the "personality" of Kristoff) made Justice take on their sense of justice...

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

PuppyFlavour wrote...

But that is exactly what the Fade is. A world of ideas, where matter itself is formed by will. Justice's simplest idea of justice is basically "helping innocents, punishing guilty", which is easy enough to do where he comes from, but becomes immediately more difficult and complicated once he enters the real world.

Its why Justice was one of my favorite characters in Awakening, right after Anders. And getting them both in the same package was the biggest thing that excited and intrigued me about getting DA2. I wish there had been more chance to dig deeper, and see Justice's side more, and see where exactly they merge, and where they managed to remain independant.

I just wanted moar janders, period. I would really like a DLC, in the tradition of leliana's song, where we get to play or see Anders and Justice in the time period between when the Warden Commander leaves Amaranthine, and when he finally escapes the wardens and flees to Kirkwall. So we can see more indepth what really started it all off.

That would be...just....awesome.:wub::wub:

[phaonica]

Naqey wrote...

Is Justice really "enslaving" Anders? Or is it not rather Anders enslaving Justice? Most of the times we see Anders speaking, Justice appears only in extreme situations. It's almost as if Justice is trapped inside of Anders, and only in situations of uttmost importance does he gain the strength to break through and take controll. Only when he can bear it no longer, because Anders is too much straying from the path that Justice prefers.

I couldn't say for sure to what extent Justice disagrees with Anders actions and allows Anders to continue, but there are certainly instances where Justice comes forth and takes actions that Anders severely disapproves of.

In my opinion "to form a gestalt entity that retains slightly more of Anders' wants and needs and personality" is what we may all want (and let's face it, we are all totally biased in favour of  Anders), but out of question. Would that be really... just? I don't think Justice could agree to sustain the merger on these terms.

I suppose it would depend on what kind of concept of "self" Justice has. If Justice wanted to retain his own individuality, then he probably would rather have their personalities be split.

[berelinde]

Those of you who follow Adam Howden on Twitter, has he tweeted anything DA-related since his "redleatheryellowleather" tweet? Yes, I know that they said that upcoming DLC will feature Hawke and companions, but I would still feel better with some extremely rumor-licious confirmation.

[Naqey]

11th September: "@dragonage What about Anders? Don't make me go all Jenga on your ass!!!"

Seemingly a reply to a Bioware@dragonage's tweet of 9th of September: "Do you think if Ander's had only taken in a new stray, things could have been different?"

[Mekarah]

Naqey wrote...

11th September: "@dragonage What about Anders? Don't make me go all Jenga on your ass!!!"

Seemingly a reply to a Bioware@dragonage's tweet of 9th of September: "Do you think if Ander's had only taken in a new stray, things could have been different?"

Actually it was the reply to, "So much Fenris love today!" However, the stray may have also helped avoid that too, so 

Also this made me giggle:

http://www.tumblr.co...fszlFdAl1qlvo9n
From Texts from Kirkwall