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[Heidenreich]

SurelyForth wrote...

Re: Manifestos Welcome

A lack of participation and the fact that I am horrible about losing time these days is why it's not been updated. I can definitely get the prompts going again.

You should instead update your fics.. any of them.. maybe even your Brand one because I just spent the last THREE DAYS reading all of it and realizing that you stopped writing it at exactly THE WORST MOMENT:crying:.


Or, yanno, I could just be whining because I'm running out of stuff to read that's updated and I'm avoiding finishing ADWD because if I finish it then its one less thing I will have to read, and I like reading, because its the one hobby of mine that doesn't irrate my husbad 



FFF top.


... *digs*

Speeking of Surely's characters and Anders... lets hope this isn't to NSFW

Modifié par Heidenreich, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:25 .

[berelinde]

Re: Manifestos Welcome, I wouldn't ask you to do it just for me, but if others are interested, I would defnitely participate.

The group was always one I wanted to participate in. I had some work and IE modding deadlines, but I just finished my last report 5 minutes ago, and anything that isn't done by the end of today for the modding deadlines isn't getting in on time, anyway. As of right now, I'm planning on taking Yami's suggestion and going through the old prompts. Better late than never, right?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

To steal a topic from yesterday (apparently I had this started in my comment field when I fell asleep) liking Anders is weird for me, too. He fits a lot of categories I unambiguously dislike, but he also hits a lot of my known patterns.

I've always had a thing for guys who think that they're freaks or monsters but aren't.. or guys who are freaks and monsters, but don't realize that they're still awesome. I also like boys who are willing to be damsels in distress, and while he's less that in DA2, Andres was the biggest damsel ever in Awakening, which is when I first started to like him.

I think that Anders' more extreme lines have a different effect than most "cheesy" lines of a similar type because they're not being delivered by someone who is stunningly naive. Anders knows how the world works, but he still means these things. And so when he says them, they don't sound like cheesy exaggerations to me, the empty promises of someone who doesn't know any better. Instead they speak of real need, of real pain, someone who has seen it all and just can't pretend not to care anymore, rather than someone who has never done anything overvaluing their own experiences.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 17 septembre 2011 - 06:47 .

[Naqey]

Haha, so you all expected Anders to be not the kind of pixel guy you would normally fall for because his romance is basically too angsty, but then he just... ensnared you with his unresistable charms? 

For me it was a little different. I actually thought that Anders would not be my cup of tea, because his romance was not angsty enough - then again, I started out with practically zero info on the storyline in general and Anders in particular, since I never got to play Awakening. I had set my mind on pursuing the Fenris romance, because I had liked what I had gleaned from Aimo's fanart. Anders grew on me after the occurence with Karl, and I almost died of laughter when I saw the conversation option "I like men with dark pasts". Soon enough, I hardly even noticed Fenris.

Somehow the tragic part of a romance makes me much more engaged with the game. Especially when it is as intertwined with the general story arc. Having to fight for what you have welds together; especially when it doesn't end well (letting Alistair go must have been my most intense gaming moment up to that point).

But maybe I'm not getting the associative nuances of "angsty" here (simply taking it as the adjective to "angst")? What would you classify as an "angsty romance"? How would it be different from "tragic romance"?

On a totally different note: all that DLC talk about parties and Orlais wouldn't let me be today... and your taking up the sketchbook really inspired me, berelinde... I had to do a doodle of one idea that wouldn't go out of my head. Please don't take offense in the lack of talent on my side

fav.me/d4a4j1u

Modifié par Naqey, 18 septembre 2011 - 11:12 .

[Collider]

I actually felt that Ander's romance was too "angsty" (or whatever similar term is appropriate) in Act 3. It almost killed the romance entirely for me.

[Arquen]

I always take "angst" in the context of the existentialist definition set down by Kierkegaard. Of course in a more modern context.

Angst is (at its core) anxiety surrounding conflict, inner turmoil, and a feeling of helplessness in the face of certain situations. Kierkegaard defined it as more of a dread or fear of failing to live up to one's responsibilities to god (specifically). Though in modern context it isn't about responsibilities to god as it is about the responsibility to self and the general conflict and frustration surrounding the insecurities and conflict within every free human being.

In this modern land of urban dictionary and over-use of terms to describe something else angst has taken the meaning of "emotional" "depressing" and even "irrational despair." When someone is at a conflict within themselves -- especially one as great as Anders it is definitely angst. The emotions that come out of angst can be broody, depressed, despair, but angst always comes with a lining of hope that the inner conflict will somehow mend "one day." In Anders' case I think he feels that day is when he fulfills his "purpose" and no longer has to fight against himself.

Modifié par Arquen, 17 septembre 2011 - 11:32 .

[Tyrium]

Well, I had pre "decided" to romance Anders, since I liked him in Awakening, then discovered all the "we canb't be together" and cheese that would usually leave me cold, and totally fell for him anyway. I like DA2 Anders better than Awakening.

[Tyrium]

Naqey wrote...

Thanks a LOOOT,  berelinde. That looks a lot more like the man I fell for!

You know how to do that, Tyrium? Remove the earring? I'd be very obliged if you could explain me/point me to somewhere where I can read it up. I finally got to meet Awakening Anders, after reading so much about him, and naturally my reaction was all squealing and fangirly.

But that earring really irks me

Kzelsama's enormous hair pack includes duncan's hair without the earring, so I just make the .mor refer to that instead. I'll upload a copy here if you want.

EDIT: Gah, permissions require author permission to mod the morph - I asked last night, but no response yet. Might work on one of my own. I don't normally use face mods, but the DA2 face is clearly how he is "supposed" to be. Awakening morph is VERY close to Alistair.

EDIT2: I have permission! I'll put up the earringless version soon

Modifié par Tyrium, 18 septembre 2011 - 08:04 .

[Arquen]

I have been completely drawing a blank about what to post about Anders. It seems like everything I think of has pretty much been covered.

That being said I was reading a fic the other day that put Anders in a kind of "father of the rebellion" type roll. I wondered if Anders would be a good leader. Would he lead the mages? Organize them? Is that something he could do? I just wonder if he was planning on being the martyr or was he willing to be the father of this war he started?

[Lilaeth]

@Arquen - I was wondering about that too. I think he'd be a great figurehead for the Mages, and could rally them with a few words etc, but my Hawke would be the one making strategic and military decisions. She's good at that sort of thing!

[YamiSnuffles]

For my canon Hawke, I figured the two of them would work as best they could in the rebellion. However, I never imagined Anders as leading it. Hawke might, but not Anders. Like Lilaeth said, I'd see him more as a figurehead. He'd do a good job giving rousing speeches to remind everyone why they're fighting.

Mostly I saw Anders working behind the scenes. He would fight when needed but I mostly see him working as a Healer. I figure that would be the best way to maintain a bit of good will, both amongst the people fighting for the rebellion and anyone that might get caught in the crossfire.

[berelinde]

Good topic, Arquen!

Unlike Lilaeth and Yami, I don't see Anders as taking on the role of symbolic leader or figurehead. Anders never stops trying to be persuasive, but he is very, very bad at it and knows it. He knows that when it comes to leadership, Hawke is simply more charismatic than he is. If you've played the rival path, and most of us have, he reads to Hawke from his Manifesto. It's hardly moving stuff. He might be alright with mediated debate, with each side presenting logical, well-documented arguments citing texts from historical and religious sources, but that isn't going to set the world on fire. He knows that if he is going to galvanize the populace, he needs to appeal to their emotions. And Hawke is much better at that than he is. This doesn't mean that Anders has no passion! Far from it. He just knows his own limitations. He says things that make normal, non-possessed people groan at his insensitivity as it is.

That is why, when he decides to act, he acts alone. He feels that he can serve his cause best through martyrdom. Dead men cannot be called upon to defend their arguments. That will be Hawkes job, and everybody listens to Hawke. Of course, some Hawkes do spare his life. I imagine he's taken aback for a moment, unsure what he should do. It was not supposed to end this way. He would die and then Hawke of the Unstoppable Charisma would take up his banner and lead his people to victory. Except that (in my game, anway), Hawke needs Anders as much as Anders needs Hawke. My Hawke, having accepted long ago that he will forever be denied his dream of obscurity, will gladly lurch to the fore, tripping over his own feet, most likely, but he will go nowhere without Anders. My Hawke needs Anders to remind him that he's still a man, not a tool or a puppet, and he isn't about to let him go that easily.

[YamiSnuffles]

I'm not sure that I agree Anders knows he's not necessarily the most persuasive person. Otherwise, why write the manifesto? Why read the manifesto to a rival Hawke? It's all there to help others understand his point of view.

But that's not the kind of thing I had in mind for him at all. I didn't ever envision him reading his manifesto to people, or even handing out copies necessarily. I mean the same sort of impassioned speech he gave just before and after blowing up the Chantry. Anders is very good at laying his soul out for the world to see. He can show that he cares about this with everything that he is. To the right audience, he'd be a good example of what the Chantry has forced mages to do. He gave up everything he was, everything he might have been, just for a small chance to free mages. That's a more powerful message than I think Hawke could give, especially a non-mage Hawke.

[berelinde]

Oh, I won't argue with you about Anders's ability to stir emotion in a sympathetic audience! Not at all. This thread would not be over 2100 pages long if he was not very, very good at that. The thing is, Anders is at his best with people who already know something about him and what he has given up to become what he is. Not everyone knows that, though, and he can't really go around telling his life story to strangers. Hawke, especially a non-mage Hawke, has a better chance of persuading strangers that Anders's cause is the right one. And since he plans to start a war, his cause will have to be heard outside Kirkwall, among people who have never heard of Meredith and know nothing of the abuses done to Circle mages. So yeah, I can see Anders giving delivering stirring pep talks to groups of key revolutionaries, but I see Hawke as being the public leader. Hawke can speak from both sides. He can make an emotional appeal based on what he has seen personally, but he has a better understanding of what will move an impartial audience. That last bit is the part Anders cannot do.

I'm pretty sure we're actually on the same page with this, just calling it different things. Which is what led to my confusion. I thought you meant that Anders would have a more direct role in leading the armies. It probably is my fault for misunderstanding you. I'm OK with writing, but dyslexia forces me to read words one letter at a time. By the time I get to the end of the sentence, I often forget what the first part was about.

[berelinde]

And please don't think I'm undervaluing opinions that differ from my own! Far from it. Once a character leaves the writer's desk, it's open to all kinds of interpretations, and you probably find "The One True So-And-So" posts as infuriating as i do.

No matter whether we agree about Anders's precise role in the war ahead, I think we both agree that he still has a lot to give and that his part in the revolution is far from over.

[YamiSnuffles]

Oh, it's quite alright. Discussion time is always fun and I would imagine a lot of people have different ideas for their Hawkes and Anders in the revolution. But I do think we actually do have about the same opinion on the matter.

As I said, I don't see Anders in any type of leadership role but I think he could be a very good symbol to the right people. At the very least with other mages, he wouldn't need to tell his whole life story. To some extent, other Circle mages would know his story because they've lived it themselves.

[ForgeDark]

I think by the point that Anders has blown up the Chantry that he can't really have any leadership role. People like to think you can change the world without any violence (however misguided that may or may not be). Anders is completely tainted by what he's done. Most liberal mages & mage supporters would balk at what Anders has done, and him being around to try and lead a movement would do more harm than good in my opinion. The focus should be on Meredith's reaction to what Anders did - no mage is safe, even a compliant mage can be made tranquil by the Templars because of the rogue actions of another. The only way to win in my opinion is to publicly condemn Anders actions whatever Hawke's personal view of it is. It is going to be a minority of mages that will agree with Anders, and that is the same minority that has already failed for years to overturn the Circle. You need to get mages like Wynne behind you - those who have for years done nothing, this action needs to mobilise them. Acting like Anders is a hero is going to get you no where with those people.

[esper]

I am actually not sure that the people of Thedas thinks you can change the world without violence. Every hero they revere is a violent hero and Thedas has not have a ww1 to scare them, before ww1 a lot of people (common people too) wanted war because it was seen as an acceptable way of gaining new power to a country. It was the meaningless of ww1 with the new weapons that scared people into thinking, perhaps we should try something different.

[ForgeDark]

esper wrote...

I am actually not sure that the people of Thedas thinks you can change the world without violence. Every hero they revere is a violent hero and Thedas has not have a ww1 to scare them, before ww1 a lot of people (common people too) wanted war because it was seen as an acceptable way of gaining new power to a country. It was the meaningless of ww1 with the new weapons that scared people into thinking, perhaps we should try something different.

Perhaps, but before WW1 people would have been just as outraged had a church been blown up. I think it's more that Ander's blew up the Chantry that is the major issue letting him have anything to do with the leadership afterwards. People are very religious in the DA universe, and so I think it's a bad idea to focus on the Chantry blowing up part of the Last Straw. I think the way to get the mages to rise up is to focus on the fact Meredith was willing to make a whole circle tranquil because of the misguided actions of one guy. Reading these forums  I think most people do side with the mages in the game, but a lot of them will choose to kill Anders. It's not neccessarily the righteousness of Ander's act that makes people side with Orsino, but instead the total crazy of Meredith's response to it. 

Modifié par eyeofhorus87, 18 septembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[esper]

Oh... we agree about the chantry thing makes Anders unsuited to lead the mages without Hawke. At least in regard with gaining sympathy from non-mages.
But not with the violence thing in general. I think that the common people of Thedas accept violence as a part of everyday life because, quite frankly the only one we have seen oppossed to violence are those who has led a sheltred life. I don't thing people are against violent methods, because I don't think the people of Thedas know any different.

[ForgeDark]

 I would just like to add that I do agree with what Anders did, and do honestly think an act like that was the only way things could change. I'm just saying that if I were a politician  I wouldn't spin it the way I actually think about it 

[ForgeDark]

esper wrote...

Oh... we agree about the chantry thing makes Anders unsuited to lead the mages without Hawke. At least in regard with gaining sympathy from non-mages.
But not with the violence thing in general. I think that the common people of Thedas accept violence as a part of everyday life because, quite frankly the only one we have seen oppossed to violence are those who has led a sheltred life. I don't thing people are against violent methods, because I don't think the people of Thedas know any different.

Yeah I think you're right I take back what I said previously  

[esper]

I am very, very pro-mage too. And does actully agree with Anders method (I am still schocked that bioware managed to get me to do that). I can see no other way witht the way Thedas works.
But we were discussing how the people of Thedas view violence and personally think that it is not the violent act itself, but those he acted are against that will cause some of the Thedastians (?) to hate him for it.

[esper]

You were faster.
'ed

[Collider]

Couldn't help but think of the Anders romance when I heard this song.