57019 réponses à ce sujet

[Naqey]

It seems like we pretty much agree that Anders is not suited to take the role of a leader of the mage rebellion.

And while I agree with the arguments which have been brought up so far, I would even go one step further to suggest that Anders should not take any role at all in the rebellion.

This is not about what will actually happen; if Hawke decides for Anders to live (which will be pretty much true for all of us in this thread, I assume) he will eventually take some kind of role. It's just about what would be best for the rebellion in general to succeed.

We all agree that Anders is not the diplomatic kind of a guy, nor is he especially convincing when around people who do not believe in his cause. Just think about his banters with... anyone of the other companions in Act 3. At some point I got the impression that Anders makes a point of pissing off just about everybody. He will insult them in advance because he already anticipated (not always rightly so) them attacking him for his conviction.

That being said, what is crucial for the mage cause is to reach the broadest support possible across all fraternities of mages; they cannot afford to be inwardly riven. Anders is valuable as "symbolic capital". His figure and all it stands for are a powerful rallying cry to unite mages. But as a person, as an acutal, living, breathing being, he has become too controversial to be of any further use. As I said, Anders is useful as symbolic capital. For that matter, he must allow for a wide interpretative frame to coopt as many people as possible. To coopt the Resolutionists and Libertarians, Anders the fierce destroyer of chantries might be just about right. But the Aequitarians? You need a different sort of interpretation of the events to get them. Something more along the lines "he was desperate, but wrong and needed to die; now that justice is served, the mage cause in general is still morally good". It's inherently easier to unite all the different interpretations if Anders is not around to prove any one of them wrong by doing something contradictory.

Anders had it all planned out perfectly. That's the whole point of being a martyr. A martyr is dead. He has a symbolic value that is universal (and still fluid and flexible according to the use the image is put to), because there is no living creature that could fail to live up to the idol.

But he didn't reckon with Hawke being a living, human being desperately in need of the Anders he loves so much

Edit: Top is no good... I like my posts to blend in at the end of a page oO

Modifié par Naqey, 18 septembre 2011 - 11:29 .

[Giggles_Manically]

The issue is however that it seems Hawke becomes the much larger symbol.
Cassandra is looking for Hawke, and judging by the dialouge it seems that the "Champion" becomes the rallying cry for mages.

It really seems like Anders may not even be known on the large scale compared to Hawke's name.

Anders "started" the war, but it's Hawke who creates the real symbol: Giving the Templars an ass kicking and killing Meredith.

That is at least what it seems like to me.

[Xilizhra]

All in all, it's doubtful Anders will be remembered as the one who started everything. He could still play a role, especially if he went somehow incognito.

[Naqey]

And that's why you need somebody to tell the story... that's how history is made. In themselve events mean nothing. Only when you interpret them in a certain way and tell them to people out of a certain motivation, to influence them in certain way... that's when they become the meaningful events that make up history.
Now Anders' is a story that is worth telling. It can conjure up intense emotions. Varric has told the story. It worked. It can be told again. Maybe that is why Anders is so obsessed with getting Hawke on his side...

Modifié par Naqey, 19 septembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[Arquen]

Interesting how so many tend to think Anders is not the leader type. Im inclined to agree. However, my Hawke is no leader of mage rebellions and my Hawke that sided with the Templars definitely is not. I really see Hawke as the symbol and not the leader. Anders is the forgotten "fired the first shot" guy. Some remember him for what he did, but I doubt his name alone is a rallying cry other than as "the mage that finally had enough and fought back."

Still it leaves the leader role up in the air if your Hawke is not willing to be that role. I think though that there must be some leadership and organization and I see a potential mess as people vie for control of the rebellion. Tevinter too will no doubt be intrigued by such things and might make a grab for power inserting themselves on the side of free mages.

It may end up if Anders lives and Hawke is not a willing leader that he goes.. "well who else is going to do it?" And take up the mantle at least until he is sure the rebellion can stand on its own. I mean, since when has the "your with me or against me" attitude not been a part of a rebellious faction leader? Lol.

Modifié par Arquen, 19 septembre 2011 - 09:14 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Well, if neither Anders nor Hawke become the leaders of the mage rebellion, I would suppose a leader might come from the Circles themselves. Since the Circles all rose up and revolted on their own, I assume there were leaders to those rebellions. They could probably work out between themselves who is most fit to lead. Or a group could lead jointly. Then Hawke, if on the mages' side, could help them work PR. People seem to love or at least be in awe of the Champion. So Hawke might not lead, but could be useful working things out between the common people. Or Hawke could help in leading but not be the leader.

[Giggles_Manically]

Anders may have started the war, but its Hawke who is remembered as the symbol of the war.

Just like Gaius Marius was really the person who started the Roman Empire, but many people really say that its Augustus who REALLY started the empire.
Marius made the reforms that made it possible, but Augustus was really the first person to be the EMPEROR of Rome.

Same way that Anders made the war possible but Hawke is the one who really kicked the war into over drive.
If Hawke was not there most likely the Last Straw may not have even happened, or would have just become an even worse annulment and ended right there.

The symbol was the templars being fought and some mages actually fighting and living. Not a Chantry being destroyed.

[ForgeDark]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Anders may have started the war, but its Hawke who is remembered as the symbol of the war.

Just like Gaius Marius was really the person who started the Roman Empire, but many people really say that its Augustus who REALLY started the empire.
Marius made the reforms that made it possible, but Augustus was really the first person to be the EMPEROR of Rome.

Same way that Anders made the war possible but Hawke is the one who really kicked the war into over drive.
If Hawke was not there most likely the Last Straw may not have even happened, or would have just become an even worse annulment and ended right there.

The symbol was the templars being fought and some mages actually fighting and living. Not a Chantry being destroyed.

Agree, and Hawke is either a symbol of hatred or hope for the mages depending which side he/she picks. Either way without Hawke there may not be any rebellion elsewhere. I see the survival of Hawke being key: either Hawke becomes Viscount and disgusts mages across Thedas, or becomes a symbol of hope. Something to unite the mages, whether in hatred or admiration. Anders is never going to unite people to a common cause, he is too complicated for that.  

[Naqey]

Hope this doesn't seem like too silly a question, but...

... has anybody of you ever thought about why Anders wears white ribbons on both his arms plus on the top part of his right boot? I'm especially intrigued with the boot part. Is it "just" for decoration? Why would somebody wear a white ribbons as decoration on his leg (admittedly, people wear stranger stuff just for decoration). Or is there some deeper meaning? What is it anyway? Ribbons? Bandage material?

[Wulfram]

Cassandra probably isn't looking for Anders because she doesn't think he would be willing to help stop the war.  She clearly knows about him, and hates him for his actions.

[LT123]

@Naquey
They're probably bandages holding his hobo outfit together.

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...

Hope this doesn't seem like too silly a question, but...

... has anybody of you ever thought about why Anders wears white ribbons on both his arms plus on the top part of his right boot? I'm especially intrigued with the boot part. Is it "just" for decoration? Why would somebody wear a white ribbons as decoration on his leg (admittedly, people wear stranger stuff just for decoration). Or is there some deeper meaning? What is it anyway? Ribbons? Bandage material?

I've wondered about that myself. Bandage storage? Although why someone would store bandages somewhere so likely to get dirty is anyone's guess. I guess it's so you know that he's a healer. As for the knee thing, back in the days before Ace bandages and knee braces, people would wrap bad knees in bias-cut wool fabric for additional support. Maybe he's got a bad knee? Healing corrects short-term health issues, but as Senior Enchanter Sweeney tells you in DA:O, there's no cure for aging. Not that Anders is an old man! It's just that micro-injuries like that wouldn't become a problem until the cumulative damage is pretty far along.

[Arquen]

Screenshot for better interpretation? ... LOL.



The one on his left looks like cushion or something underneath that bracer. The one on his right looks like extra cloth or maybe just wrist wraps. The one on his right knee looks like he is storing an extra piece of bandage or covering a hole in his "hobo outfit" LOL.

I'm actually... not quite sure. He has belt pockets, both a round one and a square one. You would think if he needed extra bandages he would store them there.

[Inzhuna]

Hi guis! I was wondering if you could help me out. I was messing with romance flags in console and now in Questioning Beliefs dialogue in Act 2 my rivalmance with Anders is not triggering. He's not saying the "I swear if I convince no one else in Thedas, I will at least get you on my side". And no kisses. I tried setting romance flag to Active again but it's not working. I can make it go to the romance scene once I enter Hawke estate, but the Questioning Beliefs dialogue is not changing. What could be the problem? Or should I use another flag? (there are Intimate, Commited and a bunch of others). Thanks in advance

[berelinde]

Did you flirt with Anders in Act 2 before Dissent? If you didn't, you'll never get flirt options during QB. Also, not sure, but setting the flag to Active might have been what caused the issue. I think "Active" is set during QB and triggers the mansion scene. Unfortunately, clearing all flags may erase your flirting history, too.

Most importantly, do you have a save before you started messing with romance flags in the console?

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I've always thought of those white wrappings as impromptu attempts at repair. His current robes seem to be made of his old robes. disassembled and hastily resewn, and supplemented with a bunch of randomly scrounged items.

As for a leadership role in the revolution, that varies for my Hawkes. I'm considering having my main, incredibly-strongly-mage-supporting Hawke either kill Anders or leave him... not because she doesn't love him, or because she is upset by what he did, but because she, too, is willing to sacrifice absolutely anything for the cause, and if killing Anders establishes her as a truly just and fair person in the eyes of the common people, she'd do it. I'm not sure if I'll have the heart to do it, but that's what she's thinking when she's standing over him. "Will it help the cause if I kill you? Because that's the only reason I would."

Other Hawkes are different: Garrett is quite and not a leader, either. Crow doesn't care. Esk is involved in aspects of the mage underground unconnected to the ones Anders is involved in, keeping them secret because she's worried that Anders is a loose cannon.

When it comes down to it, the leader the revolution needs is Amell or Surana, with a side chance of Mahariel (because the Dalish have a vested interest in ending the persecution of mages.) I mean I suspect what we'll get is DA3 Protag, whoever that is, unless this has all been a spectacular fake and the mage/templar struggle is just a minor aspect of the next game.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 20 septembre 2011 - 03:06 .

[Ulaume]

@Naquey

I'd say they are definitely shoddy repairs to the outfit, reminds me a bit of the ones I purposefully create on clothing when going all 'wayward Victorian girl' a la Emilie Autumn, hehe ^.^

Ah, I delurk to comment on attire, how typical of me xD

[silver1881]

I think the best situation for the rebellion would be Anders and Hawke working together. Anders wouldn't make a good leader on his own, simply because he's so unstable. A leader needs to inspire confidence in his/her men, and it would be hard to do that considering his mental issues. However, he would make a good symbol to rally around, and that's important too. It's obviously important for them to believe in what they're fighting for. He would rouse the passions of the rebels, and Hawke would make them believe that they could actually pull it off.

[Inzhuna]

berelinde wrote...

Did you flirt with Anders in Act 2 before Dissent? If you didn't, you'll never get flirt options during QB. Also, not sure, but setting the flag to Active might have been what caused the issue. I think "Active" is set during QB and triggers the mansion scene. Unfortunately, clearing all flags may erase your flirting history, too.

Most importantly, do you have a save before you started messing with romance flags in the console?

Yeah, I think I messed it up. I have a save but it's 5 hours back. Oh well, won't be the first time I had to replay. The things we do for Anders! Thanks for your reply!

[Sialater]

silver1881 wrote...

I think the best situation for the rebellion would be Anders and Hawke working together. Anders wouldn't make a good leader on his own, simply because he's so unstable. A leader needs to inspire confidence in his/her men, and it would be hard to do that considering his mental issues. However, he would make a good symbol to rally around, and that's important too. It's obviously important for them to believe in what they're fighting for. He would rouse the passions of the rebels, and Hawke would make them believe that they could actually pull it off.

Anders wouldn't make a good leader on his own because he doesn't think strategically. Nor does Hawke, really, or she'd have seen it coming.   But, it can be argued she's more likely to learn and learn fast.

[Naqey]

Ulaume wrote...

@Naquey

I'd say they are definitely shoddy repairs to the outfit, reminds me a bit of the ones I purposefully create on clothing when going all 'wayward Victorian girl' a la Emilie Autumn, hehe ^.^

Ah, I delurk to comment on attire, how typical of me xD

Hm... I think we can savely outrule the "bandage storage" option, unless Anders is keen on killing his patience by making them contract blood poisoning oO But maybe those DA healers have some handy "desinfection spells"?

As for the impromptu repair suggestion... that would be very inconvenient, wouldn't it? He'd need to take them off every time he undressed and put them back on. Sewing is easier. Unless he's not so much into the washing thing and all. But then again, I always had the impression that Anders was quite... particular about his looks, not to say vain. Just think of the fancy dress he wears in Awakening, the earring and his longish hair (which he seems to give some sort of grooming, or else... it'd look diffent). He has definitely toned down that bit of his personality in DA2, but it can't be completely gone.

We'll never know. Unless... we get a good sniff of Anders that is

But it sure looks good. That's what's important. Haha, today when I saw the doctor for a check up of broken foot, and when they gave me all that clean new bandage... the thought of "funneling" some actually crossed my mind for a second or so... as a mark of a true Anderstian

[ekurian]

Just popping in with a random question.

Since Anders is a healer and can heal pretty much anything, could he make a woman a virgin again?

Say, if a mage girl was raped by a Templar or something, and that took her virginity, could he give it back?

/the result of conversations with a strange boyfriend.

[Naqey]

Virginity is a concept, not some physical "change" in the body that could be unmade.

Now if we take the "dehymenation" to be the loss of virginity (which is ridiculous, because it can happen under other circumstances also), then well... I'd say we don't know enough about the actual "working" of healing magic. What exactely does it do? Can healing only undo "harmful" changes in the body? Does it effect changes the way the healer wants it? (if so, wouldn't there be a whole school of offensive magic only concerned with... let's say causing inner damage to kill the vicitim?)

Just as an aside... this is *really* a strange question xD

Modifié par Naqey, 20 septembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...
(if so, wouldn't there be a whole school of offensive magic only concerned with... let's say causing inner damage to kill the vicitim?)

Just as an aside... this is *really* a strange question xD

Like Walking Bomb or Hemorhage, you mean?

I'll take a stab at the question, though. Healers can probably manage hymen restoration, since it's no different than repairing any other torn membrane, but it would have to occur before the wound had time to heal on its own, which, for that particular membrane, happens within hours. As for the mental aspect of it, I'd argue the mage was still a virgin, since assault is not the same as sex.

[Arquen]

Oh Anders thread... you never fail to amuse me with your strangeness.

I don't even want to get into the whole virginity, dehymenation, sexual assault ... issues. That is just no go territory unless you want to spark huge hot button debates.

As for the healing thing. Didn't this come up before? -- I'm thinking the way it works is that it can restore people to a certain "normal anatomy," but it can't necessarily repair defects or things people are born with. I'm also inclined to side with berelinde in that if the injury is already healed and become a part of the "normal anatomy" of a person like a scar or a healed injury it would not be "heal-able" at that point. So, no I don't believe that magic can reverse something like that unless the healer caught it before it was healed completely.

As for the school of offensive magic causing inner damage.. yeah... blood magic, some spirit magic, these things do exist. If there is a school to repair/heal there is likely a school to destroy/damage.