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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#53001
Naqey

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Nilfalasiel wrote...
I don't know. A couple of years of bloody war might make him wish he'd
done things differently. And since doing things differently
with Vengeance around isn't an option, well...


Sure, it's always an option that something in the future might happen that will change Anders' mind. I was just talking about possible options within the confines of what we know happens.

berelinde wrote...

I'm also thinking that rivalled Anders might consider it as an alternative to suicide... or as a precursor to it. Despite his complete disgust and lack of faith in the Chantry, he does seem to believe in the Maker, and I vaguely remember a dialogue where he says that suicide is a sin against the Maker, yet that is exactly how most mages die. I could be mistaken on that. My memories of it are very, very dim.


Which leads me to a question I'd like to ask, I don't know if this has been dicussed before: 

Just how religious is Anders? What do you think, does he believe in the Maker? It's pretty obvious that he despises the prevailing religion in Thedas, that is the Andrastian belief in the Maker as the Orlesian Chantry preaches it. It's also indicated that he doesn't believe in the original sin of the magisters and thinks it is convenient propaganda by the Chantry to justify their anti-mage stance.

There is one incident in Legacy, which struck me as interesting in this respect: after you defeat Corypheus, you will have that short dialogue with Anders. I don't remember the exact wording, but he says something along the lines: "Could it be that he was an actual magister, one of the original ones that entered the Golden City? But if so, is everything that the Chantry says true? I have to think about this..." I don't know, but somehow I would have loved to explore this further, talk more about this with Anders...  In how far do heresy and resolutionism presuppose each other?

#53002
Guest_Queen-Of-Stuff_*

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berelinde wrote...

I'm also thinking that rivalled Anders might consider it as an alternative to suicide... or as a precursor to it. Despite his complete disgust and lack of faith in the Chantry, he does seem to believe in the Maker, and I vaguely remember a dialogue where he says that suicide is a sin against the Maker, yet that is exactly how most mages die. I could be mistaken on that. My memories of it are very, very dim.


Fenris is the one saying that, after Anders asks him if he ever considered suicude as a way of escaping Danarius. It's one of the total amount of two civil conversations that they have together. I can only guess that Anders asks that because he must have considered it himself at one point. How depressing.

#53003
berelinde

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Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

berelinde wrote...

I'm also thinking that rivalled Anders might consider it as an alternative to suicide... or as a precursor to it. Despite his complete disgust and lack of faith in the Chantry, he does seem to believe in the Maker, and I vaguely remember a dialogue where he says that suicide is a sin against the Maker, yet that is exactly how most mages die. I could be mistaken on that. My memories of it are very, very dim.


Fenris is the one saying that, after Anders asks him if he ever considered suicude as a way of escaping Danarius. It's one of the total amount of two civil conversations that they have together. I can only guess that Anders asks that because he must have considered it himself at one point. How depressing.

No, I remember that banter too clearly for it to be the one I'm thinking of. It may have been something from Awakening, or it may be that I'm misremembering something else.

#53004
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berelinde wrote...

No, I remember that banter too clearly for it to be the one I'm thinking of. It may have been something from Awakening, or it may be that I'm misremembering something else.


You mean, where he says that mages commit suicide? He says that in a conversation with Hawke. He says something along the lines of "for all their talk of demons, the most common way for a mage to die is by his own hand."

#53005
ekurian

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Thanks you guys for answering my odd virginity question a few pages back p:

The point of it was, my bf and I were talking about that blood magic is supposed to be able to manipulate minds, so why couldn't it be used to erase memories/surpress them (we used Fenris' case as a possible example of this). We then got on to Templars and sexual assault and abuse for some strange reason, and wondered: 'If someone was raped, could a mage make it as if it never happened using blood magic and healing?'

And the healing side of it was directed more towards nerve memory and bruises ect. rather than dehymenisation (or however you spell it xD).

I asked here because I plan on adding a similar situation to my fic and I wanted to get my theory/facts right before I put them down.

#53006
ladyofpayne

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Anders + Carver templar:oPosted Image

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 24 septembre 2011 - 05:03 .


#53007
berelinde

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With all due reverence for Sparklebutt, that is probably the most luscious Andersbutt EVER. And while I don't see that particular pairing every happening (Anders is mine!), it sure is tasty!

#53008
Ulaume

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@CultualGeekGirl

Thank you so much for the link to Coffe, Black! I have stayed up way too late reading it, it's brilliant :). I'm rather hooked, haha.
I love how the author weaves the little DA world details into the modern day AU, it's just fantastic.
I'll now be laughing everytime I go to the Bone Pit and be disappointed when the high dragon doesn't spew foam at my party! xD

I have also never read such honest/realistic depiction of sex and various situations, extremely refreshing and damn hot too.

Thank you for the link again :)

#53009
Arquen

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As Anders fans you guys would probably love the side-qual to Coffee, Black as well-- Margarita, Blended. It focuses on Andy and Isabela. Also awesomely good and by the same author.

Hee, I love the Coffee, Black AU -- I don't know what I'm going to do now that the updates won't be as often :P. I guess I'll have to do.. you know... real life stuff. BAH!

#53010
berelinde

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Nah, I ship Isabela and Fenris. Yeah, I know, AU, but since Anders always loves Hawke no matter what, it's really about some other character at that point.

#53011
Arquen

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I actually ship Fenris and Isabela too, but in the context of Coffee, Black AU I actually love Andy and Bela's relationship since Fen is taken by Garrett anyways.

Plus Margarita, Blended gives some more insight into Andy's character since he is a side character in the Coffee, Black AU.

Anders does always love Hawke and honestly I don't see him with anyone else in the context of the game world. Coffee, Black is a monster of its own though, LOL.

#53012
Tyrium

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I ship F!Hawke/Anders and Isabela/Fenris in my canon, but I ship Izzy/Anders in M!Hawke/Fenris land

I'm replaying Awakening atm, and while I like my snarky apostate, I miss DA2 Anders. I'm officially weird. Oh well. Also, there really is a lot of templar hate in that man. It's much more obvious now that I know what happens in DA2. I always thought the character development worked, but replaying Awakening, it makes even more sense.

#53013
berelinde

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I'm kind of weird about Anders X Anybody-But-Hawke pairings. His love of Hawke (requited or otherwise) is such an integral part of his personality, it would be too jarring and implausible for me to enjoy the fic, no matter how talented the author. It would be like reading a fic where Fenris never walked out on the PC. Sure, there are probably lots out there where Fenris's relationship issues are glossed over or eliminated, but it takes too much away from the emotional impact of the character. In Fenris's case, his ability to learn to trust another person, whether Hawke or Isabela, is the shining moment in Fenris's story arc, at least in my eyes. Take it away and you might still have a wonderful fic, but it just won't seem like Fenris (to me, anyway). In Anders's case, I feel that his character is significantly definied by his obsession with Hawke to the exclusion of others and ultimately, the tragedy of having to sacrifice the one scrap of true happiness he has ever known at the end of Act 3 (or as close to it as he's ever going to get, if Hawke never reciprocates his feelings). Get that relationship dynamic wrong, even in AU, and it's just some guy with shaggy blond hair and shabby clothes.

Another relationship-defining moment in the Anders story arc is how the fic handles the relationship post-game. To me, anyway, Hawke and Anders can rebuild their relationship after The Big Lie, but it will be just as difficult as recovering from infidelity. It is definitely possible, but it is going to take a lot of work and a lot of love (platonic or otherwise), and post-game, both Hawke and Anders have other things on their minds, like escaping Kirkwall and the revolution. Which is why my canon Hawke shuts down emotionally between the time he discovers what Anders has done and the first chance he has to actually think about what he's feeling. He won't abandon Anders, at least not until he has had a chance to sit down and think it through, but he's too overwhelmed by the magnitude of Anders's breach of trust to fully appreciate that the Gallows courtyard might be the last time he sees the man. Ultimately, after he has some time to digest what happened, he makes peace with his inner demons and consciously chooses to forgive Anders, but it's a rough few days.

Oddly enough, I love Anders X Anybody fan art. Maybe I'm just so accustomed to suspending disbelief while watching TV that seeing a visual image of Anders in the arms of someone else doesn't bother me. My brain goes "Oh, look, shiny!" and even if I can't appreciate it as an accurate depiction of Truth, I can at least appreciate that talent behind it. When I read, though, I get drawn into the story too much, and when I run up against something that shouldn't be there, it's jarring, and not in a good way. And the better and more engrossing the fic, the worse the shock.

#53014
tuffet37

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archiveofourown.org/works/237283/chapters/363728   This one is an excellent one A light never goes out ( I suck at making the links look nice thing) by Katiebour.  Anders/M!Hawke AU - has to be one of my favorites.

#53015
Nilfalasiel

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Concerning links, you just need to go [url="webpage address" ] "word of your choice" [/url ] (without the spaces and the quote marks).

That way, instead of displaying the url address, it'll just display one word linking to the webpage.

Edit: Uh...I have no idea why my post is invisible. I just wanted to post instructions on url tags...

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 25 septembre 2011 - 02:07 .


#53016
Nilfalasiel

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Posted Image I have no idea why my previous post is empty...I was just trying to indicate instructions for url tags.

#53017
Arquen

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Lol apparently your instructions were too epic.

As for the fiction thing I am actually much the same way. AU was something I abhored and it wasn't until coffee, black that I could even get more than 2 sentences or paragraphs into one.

That being said I see AU literally as an AU... a completely parallel or separate pocket universe where the characters are not the same. Fen, while a lot like Fenris in many ways.. is not Fenris. I draw no conclusions on his character based on his original counterpart. In fact if I were to do character analysis on Fen it would be very different from Fenris.

This is the only way I can enjoy this. Like reading the Apocalypse saga in xmen or another parallel reality comic/thing where people end up with other people and the dynamic and world is turned upside down, but the core personality and hints of the original are still there.

#53018
CulturalGeekGirl

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The Anders always loves Hawke thing is something I've been thinking about for a while, and I've started thinking about it in a different way recently.

I'm not going to question that Anders always loves Hawke. That's pretty indisputable. But here's the rub: Anders loves Hawke even if Hawke hates him. If Hawke spends the entire game putting him down, treating him like crap, basically biding his time until he finally gets a chance to stab him, Anders still loves Hawke.

Because of this, I don't see Anders' universal love of Hawke as an indication of fated love, or the Hawke is the only person for him. It can be interpreted that way for your Hawke if you want, sure, but sometimes it's something else, something profoudnly inadvisable. This is why I can read fics where Anders is with someone other than Hawke... because just because you have a several-year-long crush on someone doesn't mean they're the only one for you.

Now, I've always had a thing for the boy with the unrequited love. When I was younger I trod that road a few times, and I remember even now how that person you're obsessed with can seem like the only person in the world. But I also remember how something unexpected can come up then, something you weren't looking for, and once you figure out how to see it, it can be better than the dream.

For Anders, I can deal with non-AU fics that have him with someone else... if those fics also show him having to work to get over his crush on Hawke. That may sound like sacrilege in this thread, but I like that kind of story, and it doesn't get told often enough.

#53019
Arquen

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15 hours ago this was posted, and I find myself... agreeing.. with CGG?

Are we in an AU all of a sudden?? LOL

I really don't find anything to disagree with here except the "I've always had a thing for the boy with the unrequited love." -- I have not, LOL. In fact the unrequited love is something that gets played out in ALL my games with Anders. Even my rivalmage PT where I completely was a douche to EVERYONE and Anders was no exception. He is like "you are everything I hate," but then he still "loved" me. It is.. disquieting for me that he continues to suppress some kind of unrequited love.

I want to see him get over it. I was having this conversation today about how Dragon Age 2 should have been named Dragon Age 2: We have problems! Literally because that is the core of the entire game, and Anders is especially fixated in this dynamic.

It takes one look and one conversation with him to go "You, ser, have problems." Whether or not your Hawke wants to attempt to "fix" those problems Anders seems to attach himself to you and indeed seems to love you regardless.

I also don't think that means it is a fated love or that he will not or can not love any other person. I think only that because Hawke is there, and Hawke is the "bright light" in Kirkwall that he is drawn to Hawke, and develops an unhealthy obsession with Hawke.

Anders works in extremes. His hate goes as deep as his passion, and I would say his love goes as deep as anything else. "There can be no half measures!" with him. Not anymore. Maybe in Awakening he was more on the fence, but by DA2 he has given himself over to bigger things. He is either all in, or all out. I think that is what comes across with Hawke, but in the end I think Anders could find someone else. Perhaps not feel the same way he did about Hawke, but he still is capable of deep love and even unrequited he can't help but give it.

I also agree he will always have Hawke as somewhat of a tether, especially an unrequited Hawke. It is just a point in his life where Hawke is a focal point, and his love and obsession stems from that. So fics that have him having to "work to get over his crush" are probably the most accurate because his crush is always there even if it is unhealthy, and unrequited. He can't help how he feels, or even how deeply he feels.

#53020
berelinde

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Arquen wrote...

I also agree he will always have Hawke as somewhat of a tether, especially an unrequited Hawke. It is just a point in his life where Hawke is a focal point, and his love and obsession stems from that. So fics that have him having to "work to get over his crush" are probably the most accurate because his crush is always there even if it is unhealthy, and unrequited. He can't help how he feels, or even how deeply he feels.

The most accurate of those where he moves on, perhaps, but I'm not convinced that Anders is capable of moving on at all. Maybe he could if he was not so blasted single-minded, but he is. Doing so would require that he give up his belief that Hawke is The One, and we've all seen how ready Anders is to give up on his beliefs. What Hawke feels here is irrelevant. As much power as Hawke has over him, she can never make him give up his cause, nor can she make him give up his love for Hawke. Since it's the one thing that he feels makes him human, he would never surrender it.

Whether you believe that Anders is capable of moving on probably depends on your perception of the priority Anders places on his relationship with Hawke. Perhaps. If you feel that the mage cause is really all that's important to him and that Hawke is just a pleasant distraction, i.e. a crush, sure, with help from a sympathetic and patient lover, he could probably get over it. If you feel that Anders clings to Hawke like the last shred of his own humanity, the one thing that allows him to remain Anders despite Justice's growing presence in his mind, then no, there's no way he's giving that up. Again, just my take on it.

When some mentally unstable people are forced to overcome their obsessions, they wind up with an equally passionate "scorned lover" syndrome. Affection is thoroughly gone, with seething hatred moving in to take its place. Is anyone old enough to remember Glenn Close's character in Fatal Attraction? I hate to say it, but I can see Anders in that role far more easily than I can imagine his utterly unhealthy obsession turning into lingering feelings of affection toward Hawke while he dedicates himself to a new partner.

Also, Isabela would be the last person that could help Anders get through it. She isn't a healer. Her interaction with Hawke after Leandra's death bears that out. And Anders's intensity would creep her out. She already walked out on her first real love because he wanted her to marry him. She is doing it because she doesn't want the other person to get hurt, but it's still part of who she is.

Also, the game already allows enough time for Anders to get over it and move on, but he doesn't. Fenris, arguably the more mentally healthy of the two men, is able to overcome his feelings for Hawke and accept another lover while maintaining a close relationship with Hawke. Anders is not. Sad, but true.

And we already know what happens when Anders gives Hawke up. He sacrifices all that he is and all that he ever will be in Act 3. Hawke can give it back by remaining with Anders, but Anders himself knows that it's out of his hands. He is ready to die. He wants to die, in fact. I would not be surprised if his acceptance of death is as much to relieve the pain he feels over losing Hawke forever as it is to atone for his crimes.

Everybody perceives characters differently. And even then, personal attitudes toward the medium will play a role. I was a modder before I started on prose, and part of that was slavish devotion to preserving the original tone and personality of the canon NPCs. My own perception of the characters and their motivations did not matter as much as consistent presentation. In other words, I might adore Anomen, but I could not gloss over (or exaggerate) his faults too much. If Anomen didn't sound like Anomen to ALL players, regardless of their affection for him, it would jar the player out of the moment. I hate the way "immersion breaking" is bandied about these days. It's the new buzzword for anything the player doesn't like, and I'm sorry, but if a person is going to trot out the old argument that such-and-such trivial peeve breaks their immersion, I'm going to have a really hard time not thinking of them as being a bit of a diva. No, real immersion-breaking is when you're playing along, enjoying the game, and you run slap up against somebody's cuddly Viconia. A little wink at the camera is OK... sometimes... but unless it's a joke mod, it has to be a very small wink. So, I approach derivative fiction (and let's face it, that's what we're doing) as a modder, not as an original fiction author, and I best appreciate fan fiction that seems like something that could have happened with the characters that were in the game.

TL;DR - Different strokes.

Modifié par berelinde, 26 septembre 2011 - 12:59 .


#53021
esper

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I am not sure that Anders can move on as well. I think he speaks the truth when he says that he has an obsession with Hawke, not a crush. Anders is such an devoted and passionate person after merging with Justice that I am not sure that he is capable as such a thing as moving on in any area.

#53022
berelinde

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It's pretty clear that I've been thinking far too much about this. I've been trying to "diagnose" Anders's romantic aspirations. I've considered erotomania, obsessive love, and unrequited love. Erotomania is right out. I don't think for a moment that Anders entertains the notion that Hawke is in love with him, secretly or otherwise. If it weren't for the fact that romanced Anders doesn't attempt to control Hawke (manipulation during the Justice quest doesn't count - it's for the only thing Anders loves more than Hawke), I would say that Act 1/early Act 2 Anders could be heading for obsessive love, but "tender and devoted lover" isn't the same as "demanding and possessive lover". That leaves unrequited love. In a very unhealthy way.

#53023
Sialater

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Well, consider how easy it was to get his approval in Awakening. It was insanely, incredibly easy to get him to like The Warden.

So... I don't see it as that big a stretch that he's one of those hero-worshiping people who prefer to fall into the orbit of whatever strong, heroic personality is around.

And his merging with Justice might have been his way to turn himself into such an individual, as well.

#53024
CulturalGeekGirl

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If you've tried to read Coffee, Black and can't enjoy it... then fine. Different tastes and all. If you haven't tried it, gods and giants, you should. It's a thing that has made me think and feel so many things I thought I was fundamentally incapable of. I can't even... I can't even. If it helps for you to think of the characters as original that's fine, but augh, my heart. My poor, poor heart.

The Anders in it is, personality-wise, a hybrid of the Awakening Anders and DA2 Anders in a way that works unbelievably well. And that's why he works with Isabella in that context: because Awakening Anders would have been so into that, but it's still colored by the sort of lost-boy sweetness that he has in DA2 and... I can't properly describe it. The entire fic is like falling in love through a telescope.

As for Anders' moving on being out of character, I have to run to work soon so I can't get too deeply into it (I may try again later), but for me there's at least some opportunity component there. The whole game, Isabella is openly flirting with Fenris, so he knows he has options and, being Fenris, he can easily act on them without being afraid of ruining everything forever. As much as I like Anders/Isabella in Coffee, Black; I agree that they aren't likely to get together in the strictly canon game world for precisely that reason: Anders doesn't think Isabella would be able to take it, or give him what he needs.

Now, let's discard all of the more controversial pairings I enjoy, and go with the one I'm most certain of: Anders and his Warden. The Warden can have almost all the strengths Hawke does, with the sole exception of presence... she's not around during the game. This means we don't get solid information about how Anders still feels about his Warden. To a large extent this is because of the difficulties with imports, the handwaving as to how he got there, etc. But I don't see any reason why a rejected Anders wouldn't be interested in a sympathetic Warden.

#53025
Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

The Anders always loves Hawke thing is something I've been thinking about for a while, and I've started thinking about it in a different way recently.

I'm not going to question that Anders always loves Hawke. That's pretty indisputable. But here's the rub: Anders loves Hawke even if Hawke hates him. If Hawke spends the entire game putting him down, treating him like crap, basically biding his time until he finally gets a chance to stab him, Anders still loves Hawke.

Because of this, I don't see Anders' universal love of Hawke as an indication of fated love, or the Hawke is the only person for him. It can be interpreted that way for your Hawke if you want, sure, but sometimes it's something else, something profoudnly inadvisable. This is why I can read fics where Anders is with someone other than Hawke... because just because you have a several-year-long crush on someone doesn't mean they're the only one for you.

Now, I've always had a thing for the boy with the unrequited love. When I was younger I trod that road a few times, and I remember even now how that person you're obsessed with can seem like the only person in the world. But I also remember how something unexpected can come up then, something you weren't looking for, and once you figure out how to see it, it can be better than the dream.

For Anders, I can deal with non-AU fics that have him with someone else... if those fics also show him having to work to get over his crush on Hawke. That may sound like sacrilege in this thread, but I like that kind of story, and it doesn't get told often enough.



I actually wanted to romance Anders with my mage Warden, their personalities actually fit together better. When playing canon Hawke, I RP'd him as missing his close Warden friend, who under better cirumstances, could have been his love as well. Since Hawke is distantly related the my Amell Warden, I RP'd that as the reason for his attachment. He still had a strong, inner flame for the Warden, and fell in love with Hawke perhaps, as a result of slight family resemblance, and an attempt to try to move on.

Of course, naturally, this is because i do not think Hawke is worthy of Anders. She never once got him a kitty in the 7 years she knew him. B*tch. <_<