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[Nilfalasiel]

berelinde wrote...

Also, the game already allows enough time for Anders to get over it and move on, but he doesn't. Fenris, arguably the more mentally healthy of the two men, is able to overcome his feelings for Hawke and accept another lover while maintaining a close relationship with Hawke. Anders is not. Sad, but true.

I think you have to bear in mind that the course of DA2 isn't exactly the best time for Anders to get over anything, because his situation with Justice is gradually intensifying and taking over his life. Of course, he's going to cling to the one person that still reminds him of his humanity. However, after the situation comes to a head, and if Anders survives, it's possible he might ease up given time (probably after the war is over) and the possibility to either get accustomed to his newfound unity with Justice, or to get rid of him (since we've been told that it's possible). Once those issues have been resolved, I don't think it's entirely out of the question that he could have feelings for someone else...provided his Calling doesn't come...calling (pardon the horrible pun). Probably not on the same scale as what he felt for Hawke, but that's because there was more than just love involved in that situation.

I do agree though that, while DAA Anders may have gladly had a happy romp with Isabela, DA2 and post-DA2 Anders wouldn't. I just don't see it.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Now, let's discard all of the more controversial pairings I enjoy, and go with the one I'm most certain of: Anders and his Warden. The Warden can have almost all the strengths Hawke does, with the sole exception of presence...she's not around during the game. This means we don't get solid information about how Anders still feels about his Warden. To a large extent this is because of the difficulties with imports, the handwaving as to how he got there, etc. But I don't see any reason why a rejected Anders wouldn't be interested in a sympathetic Warden.

This, however, I would be on board with. Provided, of course, that the Warden isn't spoken for as well.

Edit: *sigh* ToP...Let's see...



by TruePrince

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 26 septembre 2011 - 07:05 .

[LT123]

I'm redoing my first Hawke's ending and killing Anders since that game is totally screwed up anyway (didn't do Merrill's last quest, missed/lost two people). I imported my first Warden for that Hawke, and I'll just import again for the remake of that Hawke.

So now it'll be my WC ending Mahariel imported for a Hawke who romanced Seb, sided with mages, and killed friended Anders. My canon for that Warden will be the same Hawke, except she'll rival Anders and not kill him. So my parallel universe will have a parallel universe. *head explodes*
In headcanon, Anders ends up with that Warden, who had romanced Alistair and spent Awakening bitterly stomping around telling her recruits cheery things like "You'll be forgotten and die young." But Anders and Nate were her best buddies, along with Oghren.

I had a funny moment on that first Awakening playthrough. So I met Anders, and he looks like Alistair, and he's sarcastic like Alistair, and I went, "Huzzah! You'll be the moral compass! Just like Alistair!" (I wasn't paying attention to the gloating over the dead templars, okay. Or the self-centeredness. Don't judge.) And then I got to the Blackmarsh and met the Baroness, and Anders started freaking out because she was a powerful witch. And I went, "Aw, I miss Alistair. He would have been ready to charge in and --oh, thanks, Nathaniel, for backing me up. Anders, Nate is now my most favorite."
 
But Anders redeemed himself by insisting that Amaranthine be saved. Nate has that streak of practicality which results in him arguing that you let the city burn, even though his sister lives there.  Maybe they just needed a party member to argue for and against burning it, so the player is not faced with either a) the entire party insisting that you skedaddle back to Vigil's Keep or everyone claiming that charging in to save the city would be best.
Back to DA2: Sadly, this means I'll have to romance Seb again, because he has the least issues and that Hawke a) was not interested in getting on the crazy train and never met Fenris. Oh well. At least there's the hilarious flirt lines. I will pick every single one, and it will be ~glorious~.

TLDR: I support unattached Warden/Anders, and how I learned that similar looks are not an indication of similar character roles. Also, flirting with Choir Boy is funny.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I do want to make it clear that I'm not arguing against Anders and Hawke... this is largely a problem based around my existence outside of this thread. Bear in mind I have three Hawkes who romance Anders, and only 2.5 who don't.

Still, my heart reaches out to Anders the most when people who don't romance him are tossing their hair and calling him a stalker. My heart also aches when someone talks about how they liked him, once, but can never forgive him, or will never romance him again, or will never get over the heartbreak. It's those Anderses that make a lithe figure step out of the trees and say "Hey you. You can come with me." or, perhaps "Come on, Ace, we've got work to do."

Yes, I did just compare the Warden to the Doctor. Don't judge me! Actually, I'm going to pull out that full quote, the last thing the Doctor ever said before disappearing for decades, the perfect prelude to offscreen adventures:

"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, and the sea's asleep, and the rivers dream; people made of smoke and cities made of song. Somewhere there's danger, somewhere there's injustice, somewhere else the tea's getting cold. Come on Ace, we've got work to do."

"Come on, Anders. We've got a world to change."

[Arquen]

Lol.. that is because he is your favorite, CGG. I feel the same way when I see people handwaive Fenris as a mage-hating douche or send him back to Danarius. I just want my Hawke to manifest and go.. "hey.. its ok.. come with me. That other person is not good for you..."

Still, for Anders that intensity is a turn-off and the need to be "fixed" likewise. I love Anders, but I don't feel it necessary to romance him. In fact I would like him to find his warden (which was also not mine because mine were Alistair's), and focus his love and passion on them.

I do find him stalkerish, and somewhat creepy in his intense need for Hawke. That isn't to say I snub him or try to hurt him. My Hawkes genuinely care about him, but they just don't love him.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

It's not even just because he's my favorite. I mean, technically, Garrus is my favorite. But when someone says "blah blah I hate Garrus" my reaction is usually "Meh, Garrus is a big boy. He doesn't need you. He'll deal." The same goes for Kaidan, incidentally. They're tough, together, self-assured space badasses. They'll live through a little scorn.

Anders needs someone to support him. He needs someone to remind him that he's human. I don't think Anders has ever really felt wanted or loved since he lost his family, judging by how incredibly positively he reacts to the Warden merely saying that they're friends, and that's when he's relatively stable. This need he has is, I think, part of why Anders will love even an abusive or cruel Hawke. This is part of why I have to care when he ends up alone. I have to care in a way I don't have to care when it comes to Fenris or Izzy (especially because they have alternate plans), or Merril or hell, even Alistair. They'll all make it on their own.

Anders, without Hawke, or his Warden, or some player to be named later, is not going to be fine. There might be an incarnation of the cause of mages in that body, but no Anders at all, ever again. (to paraphrase a story that knows quite a bit about vessels and causes and what being transformed can do to you.)

I can see how that intensity would be off-putting, how that need would be disconcerting, how the whole brutal affair might be just too damaging. Oh I get that. But what Anders is dishing out, I can take... and what's more, I can take it a hell of a lot better than I could take three years of non-communication. No dis on Fenris in principle, it's just that lack of communication drives me, personally, crazy. The reason Garrett doesn't go crazy is that he was created to be as different from me as he could be while still being a good, compassionate person.

(Sidenote: the Fenris romance was when I first really, really noticed that I couldn't make Hawke line up with as wide of a variety of personalities as I could the Warden. Her little, calm "you didn't want to talk about it," was so wildly out-of-character for any of my femhawkes that I laughed out loud. We couldn't get a sarcastic "Oh, that's right, we didn't talk about it any of the five hundred times I brought it up, and why was that? I can't seem to recall.")

Yeah, Anders is crazy, but he's a kind of crazy that appeals to me specifically. And yes, he is very needy, but my Hawke and my Warden both have a lot to give. It's why I always say that if you don't feel like you can handle Anders, he's not FOR you.

When Anders says "I'd drown us in blood to keep you safe." My warden would smile slyly and say
"And I'd stack bodies like cordwood to keep you free. But let's try to keep it from coming to that, eh?"

Hawke says what Hawke says. The Warden and Hawke offer very different things to Anders, both of which are interesting. Hawke represents the dream of a normal life, a sane, caring, reasonable person who accepts him despite his flaws. The Warden is the other side, she offers Anders a chance to let go of his obsession with a normal life he can never really have, and shows him how to be happy because he's exceptional, rather than in spite of it.

Holy crap, I just made Hawke Xavier and the Warden Magneto. Ok, now I really DO need to go to sleep.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 27 septembre 2011 - 08:09 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


When Anders says "I'd drown us in blood to keep you safe." My warden would smile slyly and say
"And I'd stack bodies like cordwood to keep you free. But let's try to keep it from coming to that, eh?"

*fistbump and clap*

As far as Anders being stalkerish, I never got that. In fact, I kept having to make the overtures to him. The only characters in the DA series that would qualify as stalkerish to me were both in Origins: leliana and Cullen.  But Anders? Passionate and needing someone, yes. but stalker? Does this only happen if you aren't romancing him?

[Heidenreich]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...


When Anders says "I'd drown us in blood to keep you safe." My warden would smile slyly and say
"And I'd stack bodies like cordwood to keep you free. But let's try to keep it from coming to that, eh?"

*fistbump and clap*

As far as Anders being stalkerish, I never got that. In fact, I kept having to make the overtures to him. The only characters in the DA series that would qualify as stalkerish to me were both in Origins: leliana and Cullen.  But Anders? Passionate and needing someone, yes. but stalker? Does this only happen if you aren't romancing him?

Yes.

If you don't romance him, and instead romance either Fenris or Merrill, he goes on this 6 year long jealousy bender. He doesn't do that with Isabela, as far as I'm aware (but he may even still).

There's banter of him barrating your LI  (Fenris/Merrill), there's dialog if you slept with Fenris first and then get the romance scene with Anders "Has the dog finally betrayed you?" (or some such). There's even a cut scene in act 3 where he out-right calls your LI out and says "You want someone more reasonable,<insert unspoken 'like me!'>"

Anders always loves Hawke. It's just fact.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 27 septembre 2011 - 11:59 .

[TastesLikeTNT]

Heidenreich wrote...


Yes.

If you don't romance him, and instead romance either Fenris or Merrill, he goes on this 6 year long jealousy bender. He doesn't do that with Isabela, as far as I'm aware (but he may even still).

There's banter of him barrating your LI  (Fenris/Merrill), there's dialog if you slept with Fenris first and then get the romance scene with Anders "Has the dog finally betrayed you?" (or some such). There's even a cut scene in act 3 where he out-right calls your LI out and says "You want someone more reasonable,<insert unspoken 'like me!'>"

Anders always loves Hawke. It's just fact.

I think the reason he doesn't do that with Izzy is because he interprets the thing between her and Hawke as just a friends with benefits deal (even if it's not true!). So it's more ACHING pining from afar rather than jealousy. Fenris and Merrill obviously puts their heart into their relationship with Hawke, so Anders has to deal with them as rivals. Gloves come off, claws go out.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 27 septembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Ahhhh, that's why. In my first playthrough, I only did Isabella first, never nailed Fenris or Merril, so Anders was happy as a clam. No stalking or anything.

I should try that next playthrough, ****ting my way through the companions to see what jealous Anders looks like.

[Giggles_Manically]

In the start of JUSTICE in act 3, Anders brings up Merrill or Fenris and more or less says:
I am so much better than them pick me! -if you read in between the lines...which Fenris and Merrill both point out the hypocrisy of his statement there.

However he does not bring up Isabela except if you romanced Fenris then moved onto her.
He does mention Fenris/Merrill in his romance banter during the start of his romance though.

Either :"Did the dog betray you" or "Did you finally see the demon behind that virginal smile?"

What can I say I have bad OCD to hear and test EVERY line I can in the game.

[TastesLikeTNT]

I do too, Giggles, and especially during the romance scenes. Golden lines include "maybe it will be your hand that tames him!" and "you're ashamed to lie with an apostate!"
Anders, baby, I love you, but you say the weirdest things ever.

Modifié par TastesLikeTNT, 27 septembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[berelinde]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Ahhhh, that's why. In my first playthrough, I only did Isabella first, never nailed Fenris or Merril, so Anders was happy as a clam. No stalking or anything.

I should try that next playthrough, ****ting my way through the companions to see what jealous Anders looks like.

It depends on who you wind up with. If you wind up with Anders, he will get jealous about Fenris (and vice versa), but he won't say a word about Merrill or Isabela. If you wind up with Fenris, you won't have done Merrill anyway, so there is only Fenris to get grumpy over. If you wind up with Merrill, he will only get grumpy over her.

[Giggles_Manically]

I cant place the quote but I think it went:
"You are not falling in love, you are falling in love with the IDEA of being in love"

I kind of get that feeling from the Anders romance as I play it.
I think that Anders falls for how strong and capable Hawke is, and creates a version of Hawke on the friend path that he loves.
Since a friend path Hawke supports him and does not run away screaming.
I mean Hawke can choose a blood mage, or a mage hater over him and that must really offend him.

That image gets smashed into itsy bitsy little pieces though if Hawke romances someone else though.
I dont see why he gets jealous on the rival path though since Hawke pretty much...does not support him or really have any nice moments like the friend path.

Especially if you play as an aggressive Hawke....

[Nilfalasiel]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

I cant place the quote but I think it went:
"You are not falling in love, you are falling in love with the IDEA of being in love"

I kind of get that feeling from the Anders romance as I play it.
I think that Anders falls for how strong and capable Hawke is, and creates a version of Hawke on the friend path that he loves.
Since a friend path Hawke supports him and does not run away screaming.
I mean Hawke can choose a blood mage, or a mage hater over him and that must really offend him.

That image gets smashed into itsy bitsy little pieces though if Hawke romances someone else though.
I dont see why he gets jealous on the rival path though since Hawke pretty much...does not support him or really have any nice moments like the friend path.

Especially if you play as an aggressive Hawke....

I think they're playing up the fact that rivalled Anders loves Hawke because he feels that she/he is right in telling him to fight against Justice. Either way, he will perceive Hawke as his anchor to humanity both in a friend and a rival scenario (even if it's a different kind of anchor). And when said anchor is paying attention to someone else, especially if it's someone he dislikes, well, it's not going to go down well.

[Giggles_Manically]

Very true.

From the dialouge Anders seems to believe that he is indeed better than the other LI.

In act 3:
Merrill: Who are you to judge? Are you and Justice that different?
Anders: Yes.

Then again its Justice also in his head feeding those thoughts as well who is telling him what to think.

It is a bit tricky to say what is coming from who as it were, with Justice, Anders, JAnders, and Vengeance all running amok up there.
I have a feeling that no matter what gets said we can never really tell with the literal party that is going on in his head.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 27 septembre 2011 - 07:54 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

It is a bit tricky to say what is coming from who as it were, with Justice, Anders, JAnders, and Vengeance all running amok up there.

If we're going by what the game is telling us, Justice is Vengeance. I think they just keep referring to him as Justice because that's what he originally was. But he's no longer Justice as we knew him in Awakening.

So you have 3 choices: Vengeance, Anders, or a mix of both.

[Giggles_Manically]

I think that the problem is that they did not overly explore the exact situation.
Are there two entities at war? (like on the rival path)
Is there now just a single entity? (like on the friend path)

I am left wondering if they did just leave it open though for interpretation really.

[Naqey]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Very true.

From the dialouge Anders seems to believe that he is indeed better than the other LI.

In act 3:
Merrill: Who are you to judge? Are you and Justice that different?
Anders: Yes.

Then again its Justice also in his head feeding those thoughts as well who is telling him what to think.

It is a bit tricky to say what is coming from who as it were, with Justice, Anders, JAnders, and Vengeance all running amok up there.
I have a feeling that no matter what gets said we can never really tell with the literal party that is going on in his head.

I noticed that attitude, too. It's a little hypocritical though. Before even getting into a relationship with him, he warns you that he will break your heart, and even after you get involved, he keeps saying all this "I'm not good for you" kind of things.

But once you actually take him on his word and do not get involved with him, but instead choose somebody else, he gets all mad and would rather have Hawke pick him over somebody else.

But then again, damnit, he gets me hooked even with that kind of behaviour. First he tries to be "brave" and tells Hawke what would be the "right" thing to do; and after a while he realizes he loves Hawke too much and cannot bear *not* having him, he is that desperate for Hawke's love.

[LT123]

@Giggles
Regarding rival path not having any "nice moments"-it does, actually. The "I want you right here UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE" line is still there, complete with hyper enthusiasm. "Want a sandwich?" is still there.  (That particular scene is strange because it's the same on friendship and rivalry, unlike Fenris, Merrill, and possibly Isabela, but whatever.) Hawke still gives him the key to the cellars, although in that conversation Anders will sometimes bug out and give friendship lines if you pick the wrong option. Hawke gets a great line during the Questioning Beliefs argument: "I believe in your cause. It's just your methods I question."

And that particular conversation shows what the rivalry path is: Hawke basically taking Anders by the shoulders, shaking him, and saying, "Can't you see what you're doing is wrong and how this merger has screwed up your life even more?" And Hawke's doing it because she cares. If she didn't, she wouldn't be pushing at him all the time. And Anders is pushing back because he's convinced he's right. See Jennifer Hepler's awesome post on rivalry, which I kind of paraphrased just now.

I wonder if Anders ever told Hawke the whole story about how he left the Wardens.

Edit: Anders doesn't say anything about Hawke romancing Sebastian during the Justice quest , so on my first playthrough I had no idea he was pining for Hawke. I picked the sarcastic option during the conversation after Karl, so I got glowing Justice instead of flirting. Even with a male Hawke who's romancing Merrill, if you don't flirt with Anders, the most you get is a warning about Merrill minus the whole "pick me pick me" bit, followed by a "Maker knows I won't convince you now" with Anders throwing his hands up in the air.

Modifié par LT123, 27 septembre 2011 - 09:46 .

[DragonRacer]

Seriously, a whole day with no Anders-y goodness? Perish the thought!


Awesomeness brought to you by HonestLies

[berelinde]

Nobody has brought up anything new to argue about. *sad face*

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Also, everyone has work or school now. My new job is great, but in my field you tend to be pretty much working from the minute you sit down in the morning until you stagger away at night. Sometimes I'll peek at the thread, but unless there's something that really gets me going, I won't.

I have a few back pocket argument starters in my head, but I'm saving them for when I have less to do at work, or for winter vacation/thanksgiving, or whatever. Because there's nothing more frustrating than being at work and seeing a really great argument go on and not having TIME to write your wall of text.

[berelinde]

Yeah, that's usually my problem. Boss is trying to prove that there's enough work to justify adding headcount to the department, so too busy to do more than a drive-by. Plus, being that busy is too draining to participate in any kind of serious debate. Haven't even updated the fic in over 2 weeks. It's kind of mind boggling to think that it's been that long since I've done anything even remotely creative.

But isn't this the cutest thing? Anders plushie!
(tried to link image, but aritst must have prohibited links - just click the link below if you want to see it)
by stevoluvmunchkin

Modifié par berelinde, 29 septembre 2011 - 06:51 .

[Naqey]

And I was already wondering how you do that... you're long and engaging posts can sometimes be really intimidating, you know, and you seem to do it so effortlessly. It always takes me ages to read all those arguments, think them through *and* write down my own thoughts about them. Plus university always seems to have already killed my brain until them time I get to come here.

But really, no topic AT ALL? There must be something we can discuss. Funny thing, but my "greatest fear" is that one day the Fenris thread will actually outdo us pagewise. Sure, still a long way to go, but I'm always glancing at their growing page number. Yeah, that's Anders-Fenris competitivness in its most silly form...

[hobbit of the shire]

Attempting to work, but failing at that and ended up perusing deviantArt. Found a real-life Anders! Enjoy!


Candid Anders 2