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[CulturalGeekGirl]

Funny story, I actually switched over to the Dragon Age forum because I got sick, and the arguments here are emotionally driven and usually require less googling than some of the sci-fi debates over at Mass Effect headquarters. Basically, arguing here was easier. Also, my character thread over there pretty much turned into a gush thread when a few people went on summer break... and I can't gush thread. Even if I love a character so much that I clap and squee when I think about them, I want to talk about them interestingly rather than post page after page of sexy pictures and descriptions of what our dates would be like and completely out of character dialogue snippets.

Ahem. Not that any of the character threads on any of the boards are ever like that.
*shifty eyes*

I may head back over to Mass Effect again, because honestly... I do like that series better. (Heresy!) and I don't have to hear the same five arguments about why my favorite character sucks every day, because everyone loves all three of my favorite Mass Effect characters. (Guess who they are!)

But anyway, Anders. At this point, I'm pretty much convinced that everyone who dislikes Anders does so because they have very strong preconceived notions about two things: bombs and religious institutions, and these preconceived notions are entirely and irrevocably related solely to what those things represent in modern society. They can't conceive of a religion that is also the most powerful military organization in the world, so they refuse to admit that such a thing exists, insisting on divorcing the Chantry from the military it controls.

Basically, if you don't admit that Elthina was at least performing the functions of a minor generalissimo for an international pseudo-political authoritarian religious dictatorship, then I don't want to argue with you, because you're frankly not capable of the kind of thought I find entertaining.

So without KoP, who completely understands Elthina's role but simply thinks it was profoundly stupid to eliminate her without having a solid plan for the aftermath, I just haven't found many worthy opponents here lately. I mean, we can argue about character stuff, personality stuff, and magical theory... but unlike the socio-political or science-fictional interworkings of universal politics, there are few facts in those arguments, and they mostly come down to point, counterpoint, rebuttal, agree to disagree. Which is fine, but after a while you know all the moves your opponent is likely to make, so you just use shorthand. Everyone knows how I feel about Fenders, and I know how everyone else feels about it. Arguing it again isn't going to uncover new thoughts from me... or at least, arguing about it uncovers fewer new thoughts than it used to (though I had a revelation or two about it last week, it was in the Fenris thread instead, and the revelations were more about finding a neater way to frame my argument rather than discovering an entirely new thought.)

So yeah, I, personally, am running out of steam. I poured out all that I was for a few months when I was sick and bored, but now I've got other things to fill my brain. Not that I'm about to vanish, or anything.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 29 septembre 2011 - 07:30 .

[Melca36]

I think there will be more stuff to discuss once more DLC comes out.

[Arquen]

I'm kind of in the same boat CGG. Though I've always been working, and my work schedule is irratic and hectic and I work nights so I am on the boards at like 3:00AM when everyone else on this side of the world is sleeping.

That being said I am not a political science enthusiast or much of a socio-political thinker at all. That just doesn't interest me. I instead lean more toward the philosophical and literary analysis of characters and situations. I find drawing real-world similarities and conclusions based on them just bogs the lore down and makes it into something it isn't.

I go much more the Tolkien approach.. that the story was made as a structure in itself, and not an allegory for something else. While allegory can be made and discussed and argued and similarities drawn it doesn't make the in-game or in-story world any more clear to me. In fact, it makes it more muddled because it gets rooted to and tied into real world examples, which can be supportive, yes, but also destructive. I much prefer theory.

As for Anders -- I've kind of said it before, but I find myself staring at the boards and just not thinking of anything that I can say or think of that hasn't been done to death or done in some way before.

Also, LOL at the thread thing Naqey -- The Fenris thread used to be miles ahead of the Anders thread. Then about page 1750 or something the Anders thread just took over. Of course it was a lot of pages of pics, and gush and rants, but also discussion. The Fenris thread hasn't really been able to catch up since. Never bothered me, and I find it funny how some people actually see that as a "thing." I post in both. I don't care if I bump the Anders thread.. LOL. I love Anders.

Also, Melca is right -- when new DLC comes out it will undoubtedly bring fresh eyes and new players and new discussion topics. Right now the game has been out for a long time, and people who initially played it and haunted the boards have moved on to other obsessions and things. I haven't been able to. One because I haven't found anything to really capture my attention and two because I love the fandom here.

[ForgeDark]

 I am also in the same boat, although I never posted on this board *that* much anyway (I'm a lurker at heart!) - I've just started a phd, so I don't have as much time to catch up on this thread. Then again, recently it's been very slow in here so it's not been a problem keeping up! Like Arquen I still haven't moved to from my DA2 obsession but looking at how this board has slowed down I think most people have.  I took a break from work, quitting my last job 2-3 months before coming back to uni which gave me more time to be on this board (and while I was travelling for a while I even started writing a fic, and I've not written anything for years... but seem to have lost the energy to write now!)
Anyway, the reason I love DA2 is the same reason why CGG likes to discuss Anders - the sociopolitical aspect (I'm a proper politics geek!) and because I think the story is so much more complicated and open to much more debate than DAO. However I'm generalyl on the same side as CGG so theres no real discussion to be had there  

[berelinde]

I keep thinking that one day, I'll have more free time, but then I remember that if I have more time, the reason will be because I'm unemployed. Probably best to be busy.

I tend to stay clear of the "OMG! Terrorist!" threads because they annoy me. People insist that there are real-world parallels, but there aren't. Kirkwall is a police state governed by the Chantry through the military presence of the templars. And they aren't the Salvation Army. Sure, debate that all you want, but it's not really something I want to argue. If I'm going to participate in a debate, it's because I'm admitting the possibility that a persuasive writer could change my mind. Anyway, I'm allergic to politics. People insist on using rhetoric and making impassioned speeches. And there's that whole "Anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot/amoral/wrong-headed" attitude that really turns me off.

Anyway, after over 2 weeks of chipping away, writing in 5-minute chunks, I'm finally able to update. And I can finally answer PMs. I am a terrible correspondent.

Modifié par berelinde, 29 septembre 2011 - 11:51 .

[ForgeDark]

berelinde wrote...

I keep thinking that one day, I'll have more free time, but then I remember that if I have more time, the reason will be because I'm unemployed. Probably best to be busy.

I tend to stay clear of the "OMG! Terrorist!" threads because they annoy me. People insist that there are real-world parallels, but there aren't. Kirkwall is a police state governed by the Chantry through the military presence of the templars. And they aren't the Salvation Army. Sure, debate that all you want, but it's not really something I want to argue. If I'm going to participate in a debate, it's because I'm admitting the possibility that a persuasive writer could change my mind. Anyway, I'm allergic to politics. People insist on using rhetoric and making impassioned speeches. And there's that whole "Anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot/amoral/wrong-headed" attitude that really turns me off.

I don't think politics is about saying anyone who disagrees with me is an idiot. I'm not sure how you could ever debate anything without it coming across like you're calling someone an idiot. If you're debating, you've picked a side, the other person has too, and you're trying to persuade the other. Naturally you're going to pick holes in the other person's viewpoint. And generally that will come across like you're saying they are stupid. Me & my boyfriend support different political parties, and we have a lot of debates where it can come across that we're calling each other amoral, idiots etc. Whereas really we both respect each others views, but it's fun to debate it. I'm not calling him an idiot, I can see why he follows his party and not mine, but that doesn't mean I don't want to convince him my way is better!

Bringing this back more on topic - I think Anders isn't able to respect someone elses viewpoint, and he would drive me crazy. Generally, I think the 'idea' of  a Circle is a good one just the way it is currently run it is bad. Whereas with Anders, I don't think he respects a viewpoint that is even a slight deviation from what his. So instead of it being a debate where you both respect the fact you can think different things, his kind of debate WOULD BE the kind where he thinks you're an idiot. Now, I'm not saying in politics I would never think someone was a complete idiot (I'm not going to respect someone who supports the BNP in the UK) but generally I respect that I'm basically too liberal for my own good and most people aren't going to have those views. The reason I like to debate is so I can learn MORE about where that person is coming from, you need that kind of conversation I think to really understand someone. But I don't think Anders would ever debate to find out someones views, it would only ever be to make them completely and utterly follow his ideas. 

[YamiSnuffles]

Is the topic, why is there no new topic? Ha.

Anyway, I haven't posted much because I've been here for all 2123 pages. I've seen and taken part in so many arguments, I can't think of anything new. I mean, if old arguments come up, sometimes I'll jump in on them just because there's someone new and they bring a new perspective. So even though it makes me sad to see this thread slow down so much, I don't have it in me to think of anything new. Except, perhaps, pic spam. Which is why I generally haunt Tumblr now.

But here, share in some of the Andersy awkwardness.

[berelinde]

Aw, love Anders's skinny legs and scraggly body hair And Merrill's massive platform shoes that still leave her a hed shorter than everybody else. And I love the way you draw Aveline.

Edit: Off topic, but I wonder how well Aveline sings. Probably not very. On-topic, I wonder how well Anders sings. Probably ditto.

Modifié par berelinde, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:30 .

[YamiSnuffles]

berelinde wrote...

Aw, love Anders's skinny legs and scraggly body hair And Merrill's massive platform shoes that still leave her a hed shorter than everybody else. And I love the way you draw Aveline.

Edit: Off topic, but I wonder how well Aveline sings. Probably not very. On-topic, I wonder how well Anders sings. Probably ditto.

Aveline is fun to draw. I need to draw her more often. As for her singing abilities, I could go either way. I could see her being a terrible singer, or- with that deep voice- she might also be pretty good.

I'm not sure about Anders. My gut says he'd be no good. He would sing his little heart out while strumming on the lute and Hawke would have to force a smile. Hmm, I have the sudden urge to harrass Adam Howden on Twitter and ask if he can sing.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 29 septembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[Arquen]

Oh FfffUuUuuUUuu -- Now I'm totally thinking of Spice Girls songs that fit Anders *facepalm*

He so would be ginger spice -- such a diva, and Isabela is scary spice?! *dies of laughter*

Is that Hawke on the end? baby spice? Then Merrill is posh spice, and Aveline is (appropriately) sporty spice.

"I'll tell you what I want.. what I reallyreally want..." Also, "Goodbye" and "Viva Forever" -- I haven't thought about those songs in years.

Why?! Why you do this to me. I just got slapped back into the 90's and now all I can see is Anders and his hairy legs dancing to spice girls songs. rofl.

[Miss Greyjoy]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...

Still, my heart reaches out to Anders the most when people who don't romance him are tossing their hair and calling him a stalker. My heart also aches when someone talks about how they liked him, once, but can never forgive him, or will never romance him again, or will never get over the heartbreak. It's those Anderses that make a lithe figure step out of the trees and say "Hey you. You can come with me." or, perhaps "Come on, Ace, we've got work to do."

I'm one of those people that romanced Anders first, and just can't bear to do it again. I DO like like Anders, and I take him everywhere I go, but his betrayal left me feeling so...disappointed. I remember finishing the game and having this burning feeling in the pit of my stomach that felt a little bit like RL heartbreak. It wasn't the explosion- I'm with Isabela on that one ("Bold plan!"). It was the lies, and the way he felt so emotionally distant at the end. And since we only got a vague idea about what happened after the final battle, I was ultimately disappointed. I can't think of any way that it can have a happy ending. I wonder how much of his feelings were real, and how much was just "part of the plan". I'm getting sad again just thinking about it!

[berelinde]

Arquen wrote...
Is that Hawke on the end? baby spice? Then Merrill is posh spice, and Aveline is (appropriately) sporty spice.

If it's somebody's Hawke, cool, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that it's Tallis.

But yeah, Anders would try really, really hard, fail, and Hawke would clap anyway. And then Anders would think that Hawke liked it, so he'd keep doing it.

[YamiSnuffles]

berelinde wrote...

Arquen wrote...
Is that Hawke on the end? baby spice? Then Merrill is posh spice, and Aveline is (appropriately) sporty spice.

If it's somebody's Hawke, cool, but I've got a sneaking suspicion that it's Tallis.

But yeah, Anders would try really, really hard, fail, and Hawke would clap anyway. And then Anders would think that Hawke liked it, so he'd keep doing it.

Having never been a Spice Girls fan, I'll have to go with what I was told- Aveline is Sporty, Merrill is Baby, Isabela is Scary, Anders is Ginger, and Saoirse/Sorcha Hawke is Posh.

[Arquen]

I'm not a spice girl fan!! *total denial* Okay.. okay... I bought their CD Spiceworld. Never watched the movie or fangirled out on them or anything. Ahhhhh childhood.

I thought it was a Hawke and not Tallis because of the rounded ears. Though I could have sworn that outfit was baby spice, LMAO. Oh man... so dropping this now.

And yeah.. Anders would totally try, and fail -- in those huge platform shoes, and then get up and try again XD. Mental images alone are cracking me up.

As for the romance thing.. I've heard a few people say that they had the same feeling Greyjoy. I mean you can still pick up the romance and become runaway apostates, but it isn't really that happily ever after ending. Which is why it is so emotionally up heaving and beautiful. I just wish he had an epic kiss or something at the end of his romance instead of the speech. The speech is nice, but after everything you kind of want... more.

He does love you, and is trying to protect you, and in essence Hawke becomes secondary to his cause and maybe always was, but it doesn't mean he cares about Hawke any less. The lies are something he sees as a necessary evil so that he doesn't drag Hawke down with him nor cause Hawke to be blamed or held responsible. He thinks he will die doing this, and accepts that fate, but he doesn't want Hawke (whom he loves) to share that.

[berelinde]

Arquen wrote...
As for the romance thing.. I've heard a few people say that they had the same feeling Greyjoy. I mean you can still pick up the romance and become runaway apostates, but it isn't really that happily ever after ending. Which is why it is so emotionally up heaving and beautiful. I just wish he had an epic kiss or something at the end of his romance instead of the speech. The speech is nice, but after everything you kind of want... more.

Dunno. Right about then, a kiss was the last thing my Hawke wanted. He's OK with the idea of running away together because it will give them time to work through their honesty issues, but he really wants time to think things through before he gets all snuggly with the guy.

But everybody's Hawke is different, so what works for one won't work for others.

[YamiSnuffles]

I've mentioned this before but I think, had there been a kiss in that ending, it would have to be Hawke initiated. Some people seem to have wanted the choice but a lot of other people don't want it. If it was up to Hawke, the player could decide what their Hawke would do.

[Naqey]

Thanks Arquen for this insight into the „history of the boards“. I really regret having joined the community so late; one always gets these glimpses of „past grandeur“ when people start reminiscing. Though let me tell you, I surely don't see the number of pages of a certain thread as a „thing“. It's just that childish part of me which takes delight in the silliest of things (tumblr being probably the most extensive playground for that childish streak in people) but won't really take them seriously

Interesting to read how different people will engage differently with the „text“ that is Dragon Age. I personally think that I'm more on Arquen's line, I take delight more in the aesthetics of literary motives than „hard fact political discussion“. Though I do this less out of a l'art pour l'art attitude (if I understood you rightly, Arquen?), but rather
because I'm convinced that literature is a vessel for profound human truth (regarding the human condition – human motives – human emotions), and it opens up ways to discuss them and engage with them in a radically different way than „real life“ occurrences do. So I do root them back to reality, I want to „learn“ from them. But
I don't relate them to reality in the fixed one way manner „Anders is a terrorist and needs to be executed“. The relation is much more polyvalent than this, and interpretation is definitely open to more than just this one „dominant“ meaning. Reading how different people engage with the same literary motive opens up new points of view for my own way of seeing them, too.

Arquen wrote...

As for the romance thing.. I've heard a few people say that they had the same feeling Greyjoy. I mean you can still pick up the romance and become runaway apostates, but it isn't really that happily ever after ending. Which is why it is so emotionally up heaving and beautiful. I just wish he had an epic kiss or something at the end of his romance instead of the speech. The speech is nice, but after everything you kind of want... more.

He does love you, and is trying to protect you, and in essence Hawke becomes secondary to his cause and maybe always was, but it doesn't mean he cares about Hawke any less. The lies are something he sees as a necessary evil so that he doesn't drag Hawke down with him nor cause Hawke to be blamed or held responsible. He thinks he will die doing this, and accepts that fate, but he doesn't want Hawke (whom he loves) to share that.

I agree - lying to Hawke was far less of a betrayal than one may think - definitely not a betrayal of his love for Hawke. I see it much more as proof for Anders' ongoing love that he didn't want to draw Hawke into something as harmful as an act of open disobedience against the ruling regime.

I fully understand the inner turmoil any Hawke must be going throughwith regards to Anders in the courtyard scene; but in the end, what always stuck in my Hawkes' heads was this that they may well soon enough die. After all, they have Meredith and all of Kirkwall against them- at least my Hawkes didn't think that they''d get out of there alive. Orsino's desperateness was a good reflection of that. So yes... shock, unbelieving, a sense of betrayal... all that was set aside, and my Hawkes wanted... more. But my mind canon has the epic "I will always love you" kiss of the rivalry ending in it anyway.

Modifié par Naqey, 29 septembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[berelinde]

Sorry for not quoting you.

That's another part of why my Hawke doesn't want a kiss right then. This isn't a final goodbye. The possibility that either of them will die never enters his skull. He is troubled about the honesty thing, but he is also upset that Anders didn't trust him to help. Because at that point, Iain would have handed him the match. He understands that Anders did it to avoid having others blame him, but the opinion of others meant less to him than overcoming their challenges together. Definitely friendship path, here.

Less coherent than usual. sorry.

[AbsoluteApril]

I have a possibly stupid question and I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed at length...
playing through DAO (again) and completed Redcliff, went into the fade to slay the desire demon and free Connor and it got me thinking... could the same ritual be used to enter the fade and slay Justice thereby freeing Anders? thoughts? why wouldn't this work?


(edit to add - I also wish there had been a final kiss)

Modifié par AbsoluteApril, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:00 .

[esper]

I don't think so. Justice and Anders were still merged in the Fade so I don't think you can kill Justice without killing Anders.

But I am also one of those who would never, ever dream of seperating them. I think Anders' psyche would collaps without Justice by the end of the game.

[phaonica]

AbsoluteApril wrote...

I have a possibly stupid question and I apologize in advance if this has already been discussed at length...
playing through DAO (again) and completed Redcliff, went into the fade to slay the desire demon and free Connor and it got me thinking... could the same ritual be used to enter the fade and slay Justice thereby freeing Anders? thoughts? why wouldn't this work?

David Gaider was paraphrased as having said:

Gaider answered that if Anders wanted to do it, the two probably could be separated, very similarly to the way that Connor and the demon were separated in DA:O. a lot of why they won’t separate has to do with Anders’s attachment to Justice, how it was willing, etc. Also notice that in the fade, the two are not separate entities, unlike Connor and the demon. If there would be a separation between the two, it is more likely to happen towards the end of the game as Vengeance (the name Gaider used) and Anders become more disparate.

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xelestial/David_Gaider_Spills_Some_Trivia_to_a_Fangirl

Modifié par phaonica, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:11 .

[van_squirgle]

Hi everyone! Haven't been on here for a loong while, but I saw the discussion about Anders' singing voice. Clearly, this is how he would sound.

BBL DYING OF LAUGHTER. 

(oh Adam you crazy man, never change)

Modifié par van_squirgle, 29 septembre 2011 - 05:13 .

[AbsoluteApril]

thanks for that quote phaonica!

[YamiSnuffles]

van_squirgle wrote...

Hi everyone! Haven't been on here for a loong while, but I saw the discussion about Anders' singing voice. Clearly, this is how he would sound.

BBL DYING OF LAUGHTER. 

(oh Adam you crazy man, never change)

*snort*

Well, that settles the debate. Clearly Anders would be an excellent singer.

[Melca36]

berelinde wrote...

Sorry for not quoting you.

That's another part of why my Hawke doesn't want a kiss right then. This isn't a final goodbye. The possibility that either of them will die never enters his skull. He is troubled about the honesty thing, but he is also upset that Anders didn't trust him to help. Because at that point, Iain would have handed him the match. He understands that Anders did it to avoid having others blame him, but the opinion of others meant less to him than overcoming their challenges together. Definitely friendship path, here.

Less coherent than usual. sorry.

I agree.

And even though my Hawke decided to run off with him, theres still going to be some anger issues.
She would probably have it out with him after everybody in the group  has left .

She has nothing to lose though and would rather fight for a better world than go back to Kirkwall and that estate.

My Hawke was also very resourceful; she hid a chest of gold/supplies hidden the hills and she has papers for Varric that gives Charade ownership of the estate and what remains of her fortune in the vault.