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[Arquen]

I see using etheric sciences if we are going to form hypotheses about spirits and demons in the fade. Since, as CGG said, they are sentient beings and to study their nature is more akin to psychology/sociology. Yet the fade itself is an actual, physical place that can be studied via conventional science. Asking questions of spirits is more than likely very difficult as most spirits hide in the fade and reveal themselves to no one.

It might not be from lack of trying. Circle mages and Tevinter mages explore the fade extensively, but the spirits remain rare because they want to. It is their nature to not directly interfere. Faith and Justice are the unique examples in the world, and simply due to their merger they are altered and almost inaccessible.

As for null hypotheses... like any hypothesis they don't prove anything. Merely gain support for a stronger hypothesis. The point of a null hypothesis is to disprove it. That meaning, to use the example, one has to prove the relationship between sacred ashes and illness exists. Also, null hypotheses usually come coupled with an alternative hypothesis. That being something like.. The ashes of Andraste are capable of healing illness caused by disease. So, to disprove the null hypothesis is to support, but not prove, the alternate hypothesis. Null hypothesis are important parts of scientific theory, but the Jupiter one is a bad example simply because it is a flawed hypothesis in that a teacup could possibly orbit the Jupiter, and data could be provided that could both reject the null hypothesi and yet not support any alternate hypothesis.

Gahh this science nerd stuff is hard to do with a phone post, lol.

Basically I am inclined to agree that we can glean more from spirits. However, the study of spirits is difficult because of their nature. Demons are also difficult to study because of their nature. While spirits are aloof, demons always seek something, and rarely tell straight answers. I doubt they would care enough to answer anything. It has obviously been tried, and mostly seems to end in possession or failure to glean anything. Plus the very nature of etheric science is that it is based in "hoodoo" and very hard to support any hypotheses. Bottom line is, fine.. great idea... let's go study these beings... oh wait.. there are only two in all of Thedas willing to show themselves and they aren't even accessible anymore because of their merger with the physical world.

Best bet would be a Rivaini seer or someone who could actually get you in touch with a true spirit and not a demon. Yet, the whole delegation thing again falls on Anders and his willingness. Im not convinced it isn't a part of him that is holding himself back from the separation. Either out of guilt, a sense of responsibility to Justice, or because he is simply afraid of what he will be (both of him) afterwards.

Edit for TOP: an oldie, but I think it's my favorite so far. Though there are so many good ones...

by sandara on DA

Modifié par Arquen, 02 octobre 2011 - 01:24 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Arquen wrote...

Basically I am inclined to agree that we can glean more from spirits. However, the study of spirits is difficult because of their nature. Demons are also difficult to study because of their nature. While spirits are aloof, demons always seek something, and rarely tell straight answers. I doubt they would care enough to answer anything. It has obviously been tried, and mostly seems to end in possession or failure to glean anything. Plus the very nature of etheric science is that it is based in "hoodoo" and very hard to support any hypotheses. Bottom line is, fine.. great idea... let's go study these beings... oh wait.. there are only two in all of Thedas willing to show themselves and they aren't even accessible anymore because of their merger with the physical world.

Best bet would be a Rivaini seer or someone who could actually get you in touch with a true spirit and not a demon. Yet, the whole delegation thing again falls on Anders and his willingness. I'm not convinced it isn't a part of him that is holding himself back from the separation. Either out of guilt, a sense of responsibility to Justice, or because he is simply afraid of what he will be (both of him) afterwards.

*insert mandatory "what the hell does Hawke DO during all those inbetween years?"*

Seriously, I've yet to see a "and then several years passed" storyline done well. It's really difficult to find a reason for Hawke's inaction in this particular context. Who cares about Orlesian parties with cosplaying elves, let us go to Rivain! If only for information-gathering purposes.

[Heidenreich]

It's told well if you realize who the target audience is. You have to remember, Varric is telling the story to Casandra. She doesn't give two rats ass what Hawke did that was outside the scope of WTF HAPPENED TO KIRKWALL, MAGES ARE FIGHTING TEMPLARS SAVE US AAAAAHHH!

Act one is : how the idol (aka what happened to meredith in the end) came to be in Kirkwall.

Act Two is: How it was that The Champion became the Champion and how Meredith became the ULTIMATE POWER in Kirkwall. --- See: The Quinari, dead vicount, and its all Isabela's fault. ;p

Act Three is: WTF REALLY HAPPENED in the gallows!?


The in between stuff isn't important in the grand scheme of things. It's important to us, obviously.. but not to Casandra ;p

[Arquen]

I don't expect Hawke to just plan a trip out to Rivaini or spend all his/her time "fixing" Anders on the 3 year breaks. Hawke has a life in Kirkwall. It's just as Heiden says though.. the "story" is truncated to include the relevant parts to the Seeker.

While this is rather "handwaiving" of the actual story-line of Hawke, it makes perfect sense in the overall picture. A story within a story. Then there is DLC to consider, and perhaps one day there might be something in it as far as specific Anders content, but there won't be any specific DLC for Anders I don't think. All the DLC is focused on Hawke, and so while we can hope there will be something more for Anders and Hawke... I doubt that Hawke is of the mind to spend all his/her time and effort and life on Anders's problems. At least.. I know my Hawke wouldn't.

[Nilfalasiel]

Arquen wrote...

I don't expect Hawke to just plan a trip out to Rivaini or spend all his/her time "fixing" Anders on the 3 year breaks. Hawke has a life in Kirkwall. It's just as Heiden says though.. the "story" is truncated to include the relevant parts to the Seeker.

While this is rather "handwaiving" of the actual story-line of Hawke, it makes perfect sense in the overall picture. A story within a story. Then there is DLC to consider, and perhaps one day there might be something in it as far as specific Anders content, but there won't be any specific DLC for Anders, I don't think. All the DLC is focused on Hawke, and so while we can hope there will be something more for Anders and Hawke...I doubt that Hawke is of the mind to spend all his/her time and effort and life on Anders's problems. At least...I know my Hawke wouldn't.

Oh, I do realise why it's done the way it's done, it's simply that I'm not sure framed narrative and videogames are compatible at all. It works in writing, and it can work in film, but for some reason, I'm not feeling it in videogames.

As for spending time on Anders' problems, they do get to a point where they're a lot more than just his problems though. When you have an increasingly desperate abomination on your hands, it's not simply a case of directing them a shrink, or what have you. It's possible that, when things go boom, part of Hawke's thoughts may run along the lines of "maybe there was something I could have done to prevent this". Romance or no romance. If you get the feeling that one of your friends or acquaintances could be a danger to himself and to others on a large scale, trying to do something about it isn't the most outlandish thought you could have, no? Sure, Hawke has her/his own life, but in the end, that life goes all to hell, and other people's lives too, in large part because of Anders. So, in hindsight, inaction feels a little silly to me. But then, I guess hindsight is always easy.

I also do realise that they're most likely never going to address the issue in DLC, simply because any DLC on the topic would have to take place post-game and assume that Anders still lives. Which is FAR from being the case for everyone. My complaint was only half-serious wishful thinking, as it were.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 02 octobre 2011 - 04:05 .

[ForgeDark]

Arquen wrote...

I see using etheric sciences if we are going to form hypotheses about spirits and demons in the fade. Since, as CGG said, they are sentient beings and to study their nature is more akin to psychology/sociology. Yet the fade itself is an actual, physical place that can be studied via conventional science. Asking questions of spirits is more than likely very difficult as most spirits hide in the fade and reveal themselves to no one.

It might not be from lack of trying. Circle mages and Tevinter mages explore the fade extensively, but the spirits remain rare because they want to. It is their nature to not directly interfere. Faith and Justice are the unique examples in the world, and simply due to their merger they are altered and almost inaccessible.

I still don't understand what an etheric science is. I really can't help feeling I'm missing the point here, since I'm guessing that etheric science is just a fancy way  of saying studying the paranormal?  Or when you guys are saying etheric are you meaning social science?  I'm getting nothing useful from google. Please correct me if my assumption is wrong here. 

As for null hypotheses... like any hypothesis they don't prove anything. Merely gain support for a stronger hypothesis. The point of a null hypothesis is to disprove it. That meaning, to use the example, one has to prove the relationship between sacred ashes and illness exists. Also, null hypotheses usually come coupled with an alternative hypothesis. That being something like.. The ashes of Andraste are capable of healing illness caused by disease. So, to disprove the null hypothesis is to support, but not prove, the alternate hypothesis. Null hypothesis are important parts of scientific theory, but the Jupiter one is a bad example simply because it is a flawed hypothesis in that a teacup could possibly orbit the Jupiter, and data could be provided that could both reject the null hypothesi and yet not support any alternate hypothesis.

I'm not saying the point about the null hypothesis isn't valid, just that I do'nt understand it and I would like to  So the null hypothesis about the teapot: my alternate hypothesis is that there IS a teapot orbitting Jupiter. I subsequently show that there is a teapot there. What's the problem?

Basically I am inclined to agree that we can glean more from spirits. However, the study of spirits is difficult because of their nature. Demons are also difficult to study because of their nature. While spirits are aloof, demons always seek something, and rarely tell straight answers. I doubt they would care enough to answer anything. It has obviously been tried, and mostly seems to end in possession or failure to glean anything. Plus the very nature of etheric science is that it is based in "hoodoo" and very hard to support any hypotheses. Bottom line is, fine.. great idea... let's go study these beings... oh wait.. there are only two in all of Thedas willing to show themselves and they aren't even accessible anymore because of their merger with the physical world.

Yeah, so I'm not sure that 'interviewing' a spirit is going to ever tell you much about the science of the Fade... but it would still be an interesting thing to do anyway. You couldn't trust any of the answers, other than to perhaps tell you something about the psychology of a spirit, but from a 'finding out about the fade' point of view anything you get told from a spirit is going to be distorted by the bias of it being a spirit that *wants* to talk. 

[Naqey]

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

Honestly, I think it's rather sad people think you can't have ethics without a religion telling you what they should be. Then again I'm of the mind that the main reason people don't steal etc. is because they see it as wrong rather than because the state tells them it is illegal. I mean, the state tells us it is illegal to go over 70mph on the motorway and a large number of people ignore that.  I also don't understand your arguement about mages - are you saying what the Chantry does is right becase mages have such potential for harm? If not, what could it do differenty? How does basing a system around what the Maker said make any difference to a new system? Most religious texts can be interpretted in the way you want them to be, so what really is the point in looking to what the Maker/Andraste may or may not have said when looking to a new way?

Sad? Maybe. But I wasn't trying to evaluate anything, just say what I consider as "facts" (or rather: my personal conviction about how human beings and society work). I just said "easier". You will somehow need to "indoctrinate" the ethics valid in a certain society into its members. Whether you do that by positivist law (which makes people follow because they fear punishment), "rational insight" (which is based on some [atheist] philosophical system and only works if you can actually convince people that your logic-ing is right) or religion (by instilling people with a sense of some divine entity which wants you to behave in a certain way), I think all ways can basically work. I never tried to argue that you can't have ethics without religion.

My point about the chantry was this: I believe that yes, on a very basic level, the chantry is acutally right about the mages. Human hubris makes every human being potentially dangerous, and mages are immensly dangerous because they have immense power. Some system or another is needed to keep them in check. Is it supression? Well, you could as well argue that law and norms and the very ethical values we were talking about are the system of opression for ordinary people who can be kept in check far easier. I don't say the chantry is right in how they are handling the problem, far from that. I just say that Anders' vision of complete laissez-faire is simply suicidal. But THAT is a wholly different discussion  

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

The reason I say it is incapable is because the Chantry abuses the
role it has taken. It helps the poor, and uses that to hide its crimes
from others. It has proven itself to be incapable of using the power it
has for good.  It is the 'good' sisters of the Chantry that allow these
crimes to happen. Look at Elthina, she sits and does NOTHING. Despite
her power, she does nothing. Which is fine to most of the people in
Kirkwall, because what they see is this organisation that is helping the
weak in society. This same organisation which tells them the Gallows is
fine, because by Elthina telling Orsino to shut up she is really
justifying what Meredith is doing. Sending Orsino back to the Gallows is
a sign to Kirkwall that what he is saying must be untrue, an
exaggeration. By doing nothing, she takes the side of Meredith. I'd say
it is true that helping the poor is the Chantry's most prominent PR
role. It allows the rest of what it does to remain hidden.

I have to vehemently disagree. What you are saying is that only the "first echelon", people like Elthina and the Divine, are the "real" Chantry, and everybody else is just "PR" for their wicked schemes... But all those sisters and brothers of the Chantry are putting their lives into it. "Their" Chantry is the one that helps people. Is "their" Chantry any less real than that of its leaders? That's like saying the Pope IS the Catholic Church. There are so many grassroot movements in the Catholic Church who would disagree that their vision of the church is any less "true" than that "grand narrative". Again, I'm not saying that what the common brothers and sisters are doing isn't good PR for the top. I'm just trying to say that this is not all it is, not even primarily.

Nilfalasiel wrote...
And that's what I'm getting at: it's not healthy for him.

At that point we have to decide what is actually "good" for Anders and Justice. Separating them would probably be "healthier" in that they would be less suicidal. But really, once they've started off the war, there is really no turning back to a point where both could go their happy separate ways. They are in it now. And I believe that merged they are more effective, because more single-minded, convinced and dedicated. A separated Anders might feel that it is getting too much for him and might want to pull out/have doubts. Anders/Justice himself said, there are things more important than their life. If you love somebody, what will you do? Is keeping them alive and healthy the best you can do? Or support them in what they feel they must do (and you basically agree with the main points of their conviction)?

eyeofhorus87 wrote...
I still don't understand what an etheric science is. I really can't help
feeling I'm missing the point here, since I'm guessing that etheric
science is just a fancy way  of saying studying the paranormal?  

At least I understand it that way, though it is not strictly "para"-normal in Thedas. Occult? Esoteric? Spiritual? Arcane?

Arquen wrote...
I see using etheric sciences if we are going to form hypotheses about
spirits and demons in the fade. Since, as CGG said, they are sentient
beings and to study their nature is more akin to psychology/sociology.
Yet the fade itself is an actual, physical place that can be studied via
conventional science. Asking questions of spirits is more than likely
very difficult as most spirits hide in the fade and reveal themselves to
no one.

Is the Fade an actual, physical place? I thought its physical shape was very much dependant on the dreamers mind? Psychology would thus be the science needed to understand more about it. In any case, I bet people like Feynriel would be very valuable in trying to learn more about the Fade, since he seems to hold powers over the Fade that no normal mage does.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Firstly, a warning: I've got insomnia, and I'm slightly crazy today, so I'm a bit silly here. I'm not making fun of anyone, just being ridiculous, I've actually been writing bits of this post on and off during spare minutes this whole weekend, so the whole thing may lack... cohesion. Apologies in advance.

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

OK - I am admitting my ignorance here - I had never heard of the term 'etheric sciences' before this discussion so probably a lot of what I'm saying is very ignorant. I actually still don't think I quite understand what is meant by the term (I have tried to ask some questions below). However, saying that, I don't see why you can't use the conventional, physical sciences when studying the Fade.

Etheric science, magical theory, and thaumaturgy are all fictional terms for what I'm describing... which is a form of science that doesn't exist, because it can only exist in a world with magic. Conventional science should work in a magical world up to a point, but there's a point where I think it is likely to fail. I'll go into that more in response to later bits of your post.

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

{Sidenote: Even in actual normal conventional Science,  I think it's inappropriate to use the null hypothesis when talking about the existence of something. Because it's not a specific thing that can be measured by experimental data. "There is no relationship between using the sacred ashes and recovering from illness" is an example of a good null hypothesis. "There isn't a teapot orbiting the Jupiter." is a bad one.)

I don't see why 'There isn't a teapot orbiting Jupiter' would be a bad null hypothesis if you actually wanted to know if there was a teapot orbitting jupiter. You could experimentally measure a teapot. You couldn't say for sure your method would ALWAYS detect a teapot, but if it found one you could use that method  to disprove the null hypothesis. I'm assuming I'm just not understanding your argument here against the null hypothesis?

I have nothing against the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis is an important scientific tool. However, it's a scientific tool that is used in one specific case: the analysis of data from an experiment. The null hypothesis is a tool to be applied to a specific experiment that is being or has been conducted. No experiment, no null hypothesis. So if you're not currently examining the data (or planning to examine the data) of a particular experiment that you believe might reject that particular null hypothesis, there's no reason to state it.

Basically, you only need to use the null hypothesis that there is no teapot orbiting Jupiter if someone is currently planning an experiment that is intended to determine whether there is a teapot orbiting Jupiter, not just if you're vaguely wondering about it with no intent to actually perform a test. I used that as an example of a bad null hypothesis because right now we do not possess technology powerful enough to detect, track, and measure every teapot-sized object that orbits Jupiter. Since it's impossible to conduct that experiment, there is no reason for the null hypothesis to be used or stated, because a null hypothesis should be created as part of the analysis of the data from a particular experiment, and its relevance is confined solely to whether or not the particular experimental data we are currently examining manages to reject it.

The null hypothesis is a specific tool used in statistical analysis, not a default assumption about the world we are supposed to apply to all situations. It is not really meant to be assumed true until rejected, either.

Sorry for the statistics rant. Hopefully it helped?

eyeofhorus87 wrote...

That doesn't capture the fundamental difference between conventional and etheric sciences, though, and that's harder to explain I'm pretty sure I'm going to screw it up, but I'll make an effort. A conventional scientist tries to narrow everything down to the most likely theory, and focus on refining that theory to an ever-more-honed point. An etheric scientist is careful to never completely dismiss any theory that has a chance of being relevant, and to maintain varying levels of certainty in all avenues available.

For example, a conventional scientist probably, at this point, believes that nothing can move faster than light (regardless of the single possible piece of experimental evidence to the contrary that CERN has, which probably won't pan out.) An etheric scientist would, instead, simultaneously believe that it's likely that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light, but also that maybe something CAN. Rather than trying to prove or disprove one or the other hypothesis, the etheric scientist would continue to hold both those possibilities in her head, adjusting their likelihood based on evidence she observes, but always believing that either one has a chance of being correct. 

This is a terrible way to do actual science (though a fun way to think about it.) It's necessary in etheric science because there's a significant chance that what you believe to be possible may influence what is, in fact, possible. Thus, while conventional science is all about disproving possibilities, etheric science is all about maintaining a level of openness to all posibilities, no matter how unlikely. 

I don't understand. Careful never to dismiss any theory? But - why? If you know something has been disproven, why continue to consider it? I don't see what doing that brings to the party. I mean, I don't even see how it's a fun way to think about it. How would we ever get anywhere if we kept thinking about things that had been disproven? 

I think, if I understand correctly, that etheric is science for supernatural stuff? Which, I mean... the Fade... is a place. It kinda reminds me of a quote from Tim Minchin's 'Storm':

'Do you know what they call
'Alternative Medicine'
That's been proved to work?
Medicine'

My point being the Fade is a real place in DA so the methods of the physical sciences would be valid. You would start completely from scratch, but the method itself would be fine to use.

I'm not saying you can never dismiss any theory... well... harum. It's hard to explain. It's partially hard to explain because this is synthesized by me from all the books I've read that have done interesting things with the fictional study of magic. But I'm going to try.

Firstly: if a thing can be completely known and studied by science, then it isn't magic. It's just science. Magic is, almost by definition, the things that are beyond science. If you admit that magic exists, you admit that something beyond the reach of science exists. Otherwise it's just... more science. More things that are natural, rather than supernatural. And if you want to think that Thedas is such a place, you're welcome to it. I wish you luck in your non-etheric studies. Fax me when you figure out whether Justice is a wave or a particle.

The etheric sciences are all about simultaneously maintaining two possible but contradictory views, until you figure out how they are both possible, or until one of them goes away. You have to simultaneously be able to believe "Justice is a hypothetical concept created by the human mind to try to give structure to an uncaring universe" and "Justice is that bloke over there in the armor." You can't just pick one of them to believe, despite the fact that both of those things kind of seem to contradict each other.

I'm not saying you have to treat ever theory as equally valid, and that you can never entirely dismiss a theory. My metaphor about CERN continues to be relevant: right now, I'm 90% sure that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light (I'm only 90% sure because I'm not great at science, and also I like the idea of FTL travel. Stop judging me.) The fact that CERN may have measured something going faster than the speed of light is awesome, even though I know that it may just be an error, or a stat ghost, or a mistake or non-reproducible or whatever. But instead of just saying "I'm not going to even consider the possibility that anything can go faster than the speed of light until I see more evidence," 90% of my brain is going "now now, calm down, Einstein!" while the other 10% is spinning in its chair and rambling about warp drives. 

That is why I'm not a scientist. I can't shut up that 10% of my brain that wants to believe the thing that is incredibly unlikely, but not 100% disproven. And that's the ability you need when doing etheric sciences, I think: the ability to maintain several simultaneous theories of differing probability, and be willing to adjust the probability of those theories on the fly.

Like if I were going to the Fade, I'd simultaneously believe at least three things: 1. That it's simply an alternate dimension connected to Thedas 2. That it's the manifestation of dreams, and a path to the afterlife, and 3. That it's the home of the Maker, cursed black by some intrusion long ago. I don't completely believe any of these things, but I keep them all in my head at the same time, and act in accordance with whichever one seems most predictive at a given point, while always keeping the other possibilities in mind as well.

The fade is "real," yes, but it's a place where the physical rules are shaped by thoughts and emotions. Thoughts and emotions and ideas are a **** to measure. How many centimeters of courage do you have? How many joules of hope?

It's hard to explain "Supernatural Science," because it really only works in a place where magic exists. Look... conservation of mass, thermodynamics, most of that stuff seems to work 90% of the time in Thedas. That's why everyone isn't exploding and on fire and imploding and accelerating past the speed of light all the time. But every once in a while, a necklace turns into a lady turns into a dragon, and there's no conservation of mass there. Also, sometimes that necklacewomandragon is actually simultaneously another woman who is living in a house in the next country because she convinced the queen of an ancient order that drinks the blood of darkspawn in order to gain mystical powers to let her live...

What part of that do you think plays well with conventional science?

A long time ago, in one of my very favorite books, I read a passage about how a human can learn to fly. It's very simple, you have to throw yourself at the ground... and miss. Of course, that's very hard, because everyone knows they're going to hit the ground. So you need to be distracted at that moment, so you forget that hitting the ground is what's supposed to happen, what has to happen. If you forget for a time what you know to be true, you may actually miss the ground, and find yourself bobbing gently above it.

This is all done for the sake of comedy... it is the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, after all, but it's something that occurs a lot in stories about magic: if you believe it won't work, it won't work. If you can, for a moment, forget that it's impossible, it becomes possible.

And that's the thing... in my mind Etheric Science is all about always having a small part of you that believes that there might be an ancient dragon woman sleeping in every necklace, so that when you finally get one that does indeed contain a sleeping dragon woman, while 99% of you is shocked, 1% is like THAT MAKES PERFECT SENSE, and that 1% takes over, and helps you cope, and eventually figures out how all that worked.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:00 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Naqey wrote...

At that point we have to decide what is actually "good" for Anders and Justice. Separating them would probably be "healthier" in that they would be less suicidal. But really, once they've started off the war, there is really no turning back to a point where both could go their happy separate ways. They are in it now. And I believe that merged they are more effective, because more single-minded, convinced and dedicated. A separated Anders might feel that it is getting too much for him and might want to pull out/have doubts. Anders/Justice himself said, there are things more important than their life. If you love somebody, what will you do? Is keeping them alive and healthy the best you can do? Or support them in what they feel they must do (and you basically agree with the main points of their conviction)?

I don't actually think Anders, as he is in Act 3, is in a good position to lead anything. I've said as much earlier on. Focus and dedication is all well and good, but rabid singlemindedness? I don't think he's a good unifying figure or a leader, as he is, and that's going to hurt his cause more than it's going to help it. The same can be said of the bombing. So yes, I do think that getting rid of the suicidal extremist streak would actually be beneficial for all parties concerned in the long run, and not simply for Anders and Justice themselves. Also, I don't think Anders would shirk away from responsibility, even if separated from Justice. It's not like it magically cancels out his actions or experiences: he'll still have had them, and they'd probably be sobering for anybody. I don't think he'd be able to simply walk away from something as huge as a war, knowing that he started it.

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...
Human hubris makes every human being potentially dangerous, and mages are immensly dangerous because they have immense power.

I'm not going to touch the debate about whether religion is a requirement for ethical behavior, but I will comment on this.

Everyone goes on and on about how dangerous mages are, immense power, etc., but I'm not convinced this is factual. Yes, there are powerful mages in the game. Orsino takes on 20 qunari with a stick and a bathrobe. But the leading cause of death in Kirkwall is still death by pointy object. Isabela racks up far more kills than Anders, Merrill, or even Mage!Hawke. Sure, Mage!Hawke can turn bandits into blood balloons, but so can everyone else in the party. Even Grobnar. Oops, wrong game.

On my latest playthrough, I noticed two things. The first was that we rarely see a mage turn into an abomination unless death is iminent. Eveline is debatable, maybe, but she's backed into a corner. She knows that the templars sent Hawke for her. How is this really going to end? I would argue that the demon is not present until the very moment we see the mage go all red and veiny. The mage accepts the demon's offer as a last-ditch effort at survival. That would certainly explain why they all seem to get such stupid demons. Well, there is Tahrone, but there's always a weirdo somewhere. After all, look at the mess the Elven Fanatic caused, and she was a 2H warrior! We do see templars with demon implants, but that wasn't exactly voluntary.

The second thing I noticed is that, for all their uber powers, mages are easily overwhelmed and gacked. Just check out what happens to Anders every time a wave of hurlocks/templars/bandits spawns on top of him.

The point of all this isn't to dispute the fact that mages do possess talents that most people in Thedas do not. My point is that the real problem here is fear of the unknown. By shutting mages away in towers and not allowing Joe the Miller and Betty the Blacksmith to get used to them being around, they are made mysterious and "OMG scary!" For their part, mages themselves would behave better if they were made to feel like a part of the community. Solitivus is probably the most normal guy in the game, regardless of profession. He's gregarious, cheerful, and well-adjusted. He's also a mage. So, why isn't anybody afraid of Sol? They see him every day. They're used to him being there and nobody has exploded. For all we know, he might be a blood mage himself, but we'll never know because he doesn't go around with bandaged wrists, muttering to himself. So, how is it possible that he is so endearingly normal? He is a part of society. He is not made to feel excluded and unwelcome. He is allowed to be himself without a templar standing over his shoulder threatening to beat him if he chats with his customers. Would he be just as at home if his shop was a Hightown apothecary? I would imagine so. He and Jean Luc would probably go out for drinks after work. And why couldn't Solitivus have a family? OK, our interaction with the guy is pretty limited, but he seems like a stable, responsible person. I can think of no reason why he would not be able to manage familial obligations without demonic assistance.

That's kind of what Anders is working towards. He has probably known many mages like Solitivus who would have blended into society quite well, if only they had the chance.

[Naqey]

If mages aren't inherently more powerful than other people, then how come that the one country we know of in which restrictions on mages are very little is actually ruled by mages? I do not doubt that an ordinary mage is no more powerful/deadly than any well trained rogue or warrior. It is the extremes I am talking about; mages' "power extremes"  tend to far outdo those of non-mages. There must be some kind of system that keeps the extremes in check.

But maybe it's my choice of the term "system" which causes the real irritation. I'm not talking about some repressive circle-like institution. Not at all! My point is just that, mages need a special kind of "socializing" which keeps them from misusing their power, because the potential is always there. I'm not sure exactely how we are to go about. The Dalish, as I see it, do it by making mages their keepers; they give them special training which instills them with a sense of responsibility and purpose. But their system only works because of their closely knit tribal society with a general sense of belonging.

But maybe what you have written already contains the germ of a vision. Solitivus is actually a very good example! Solitivus is well-trained. He has been taught about his powers, an knows that they come with a certain responsibility. He has a purpose in life; his gift is not a burden to him, but actually an integral part of who he is and how he can positively contribute to society. So maybe all the "system" that is needed is... HOGWARTS. Just kidding, couldn't contain myself. But seriously, maybe all that is needed is some kind of non-repressive mage-school.

Modifié par Naqey, 03 octobre 2011 - 10:50 .

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...
So maybe all the "system" that is needed is... HOGWARTS. Just kidding, couldn't contain myself. But seriously, maybe all that is needed is some kind of non-repressive mage-school.

A mage school that is run by a council that encompasses society, not one that excludes it. In other words, the Board of Directors should include mages, yes, but also representatives of trade guilds, local government (i.e. the mayor, not the king), and maybe one representative from the Chantry. Not the Knight Commander. Just a regular teaching brother or sister to provide religious guidance to those that want it. The focus of this education should be to prepare mages to become part of the community, not better weapons. Get the military out of it. Sure, some mages could graduate and join the army once they learned how to behave in public, but that's the crux of it. They need to learn to think of themselves as people with families and with responsibilities to the world around them.

That's the big problem I see with the Circle model. The Templar Order is an army. They also oversee the Circle, which they view as a resource to be mined like any other. Their charges are a commodity, and since there are more mages born every day, it's a renewable resource. If you take good care of a sword and keep it clean and sharp, it will last for generations. On the other hand, where swords are cheap and plentiful, you can abuse the hells out of it and get another one when the one you've got breaks. And that's what's going on in Kirkwall.

Public education is important, too. Non-mages need to learn that mages are not Maker-cursed vessels just waiting for a demon to zip up the flesh suit. They need to be taught to stop thinking of mages as weapons or insanely cackling balls of sizzling power just waiting to explode. Anders earned the respect and protection of Lowtown and Darktown because people saw him as their healer. Theives and murderers probably saw him walk by every day and never gave him a moment's trouble because when their kids got sick, he's the one that would treat them. Healers are welcome everywhere, yes, but who wouldn't want a neighbor who could make a wagon-wheel that would never break or who could dye cloth that would never fade? Well, probably non-magical wheelwrights and dyers, but my point is that these are non-threatening but useful occupations.

Wow, if I keep spouting off like this, I'll be writing up my own version of Anders's manifesto.

Edit: Also important to note that since magic is hereditary and that magical lineages tend to produce one or more mages per generation, allowing these mages to marry and produce children would probably increase the overall number of mages throughout Thedas. Where every family has one or two mages in it and those mages live at home, magic becomes an every-day thing, no different than having a rapier wit, an angelic singing voice, or the ability to put an arrow through a bottle-cap at thirty paces.

Modifié par berelinde, 03 octobre 2011 - 01:47 .

[Jackalope]

Naqey wrote...

But maybe what you have written already contains the germ of a vision. Solitivus is actually a very good example! Solitivus is well-trained. He has been taught about his powers, an knows that they come with a certain responsibility. He has a purpose in life; his gift is not a burden to him, but actually an integral part of who he is and how he can positively contribute to society. So maybe all the "system" that is needed is... HOGWARTS. Just kidding, couldn't contain myself. But seriously, maybe all that is needed is some kind of non-repressive mage-school.

Solitivus also has a job.  To quote the Codex:

All those who have passed their Harrowing but have not taken apprentices are mages. This is where most trouble in a Circle lies, in the idleness and inexperience of youth. The untested apprentices are the most numerous denizens of any tower, but they more often pose threats to themselves, due to their lack of training, than to anyone else.

Cosmic powers and nothing to do?  That spells out disaster.  I mean, what do some of those mages do all day?  Study, have tea, study, mandatory chant, study, sleep...it goes on and on.  Joining the Wardens is probably one of the best things that can happen to a mage, simply because you spend all day fighting to stay alive and you actually get to use all those spells you studied.

The Mage's Collective is probably another good example.  Hey, they might exist outside the Circle, but clearly they have a purpose and keep busy.

[Heidenreich]

Jackalope wrote...

Naqey wrote...

But maybe what you have written already contains the germ of a vision. Solitivus is actually a very good example! Solitivus is well-trained. He has been taught about his powers, an knows that they come with a certain responsibility. He has a purpose in life; his gift is not a burden to him, but actually an integral part of who he is and how he can positively contribute to society. So maybe all the "system" that is needed is... HOGWARTS. Just kidding, couldn't contain myself. But seriously, maybe all that is needed is some kind of non-repressive mage-school.

Solitivus also has a job.  To quote the Codex:

All those who have passed their Harrowing but have not taken apprentices are mages. This is where most trouble in a Circle lies, in the idleness and inexperience of youth. The untested apprentices are the most numerous denizens of any tower, but they more often pose threats to themselves, due to their lack of training, than to anyone else.

Cosmic powers and nothing to do?  That spells out disaster.  I mean, what do some of those mages do all day?  Study, have tea, study, mandatory chant, study, sleep...it goes on and on.  Joining the Wardens is probably one of the best things that can happen to a mage, simply because you spend all day fighting to stay alive and you actually get to use all those spells you studied.

The Mage's Collective is probably another good example.  Hey, they might exist outside the Circle, but clearly they have a purpose and keep busy.

That's the catch 22 though isn't it? If mages were allowed jobs and families on a more regular basis (mages -are- allowed to marry and procreate, but its very very heavily frowned upon. And probably not allowed at all in places like Orlais and Kirkwall/Free Marches.) then they wouldn't be nearly the danger to society that society has been taught to believe they are. If mages were allowed basic human rights, if they were taught how to be mages by people who loved and respected them (see: Malcolm Hawke), if they were taught to like themselves rather then the self-hate we see so prevelant (see: chick in ferelden circle who you can sugest she make herself tranquil)...

If they were allowed even one of those things I listed, there would more then likely be a huge drop in crazy-abomination-posessed mages. They wouldn't, over all, need to use their last resort. Their last resort being blood magic and demons.

You asked "well we already have a group of "free" mages and they're tevinters!" Well, yes, but Tevinter has been ruled by mages for well over a thousand years. Their whole society is built around mages. It's not the same thing to ask "can I grow up, get married, and have some babies. Get a job maybe and live life? I'll Regularly report into the circle, take an apprentice to teach them how to use their magic responsibly... Please?"

A.. mage commune, rather then a prison. A section of town where mages-and-their-families can live comfortably and safe together. Where templars are guardians and not jail-keepers. Like an Alienage, only less .. bad. Where they can interact with society, and still have a safe place to call home.

That would be an exelent start, with the plan being that eventually they'd be integrated into society completely. Take away the NEED to resort to desperate mesures, and the desperate mesure disapears.

[Arquen]

And that is my cue to repost this


by Andre-es on DA <--- I MISS YOU REI!

Also, I quite agree with Naqey.. we seem to see many things the same way, LOL. There is an inherent danger to mages because of the history of extremes. Not the least being Tevinter and the mages who entered the Black/Golden city. Abominations are debatable, but I'm inclined to go with the fact that abomination is the end-stage of possession. This is why blood magic is so feared, because blood magic seems to inherently lead to some kind of demon interaction. Yeah, yeah.. learn it from books, etc. etc. A different argument for a different time. Basically, my only concern is that mages can go about like normal people -- look like normal people, and be possessed by demons with no actual person inside. They are more prone to this than "normal" people because of their close relationship with the fade.

The mages who take advantage are the danger. Even in Tevinter mages are collared and sold as slaves. It is the powerful mages who take every advantage they can get in power who rule. Therefore, I just can't agree that mages turn to these things out of desperation alone. There is an inherent danger that is greater than the norm for mages. "Backed into a corner they got options the rest of us don't." <-- thank you Samson! Good point.

There must be some kind of system in place. Or perhaps some kind of framework, laws, rules, guidelines, enforcements, that allow for mages who would abuse power in such a way to remain checked. It isn't so much the mages that are the problem in themselves, but the extremes (as Naqey said). An extreme mage can cause a devastating force that an extreme individual could not hope to achieve even if they tried. A group of these unhinged mages, and we got a REAL problem. Like.. earth ending, blight, Archdemon type power. Oh wait.. didn't unhinged and powerful mages do that too? And.. correct me if I'm wrong, but they weren't desperate, were they? Just power hungry and arrogant and greedy.

That is not to say lets blame mages. That is not to say that breeding fear of mages into the populace is a justified or right action to take. Just saying that mages are not harmless, and they cannot be on equal footing with "normal" people. They are NOT like normal people. Think of them .. well.. like X-men. Mutants with a capacity for world ending destruction. This fact cannot simply be ignored. Left to rule themselves it becomes Tevinter Imperium. Strong take over, weak suffer, back to oppression land you go. There has to be some kind of method. Some way to keep mages in check. Circle does not work, but what is the alternative? Who governs the mages?

[Jackalope]

Arquen wrote...
It isn't so much the mages that are the problem in themselves, but the extremes (as Naqey said). An extreme mage can cause a devastating force that an extreme individual could not hope to achieve even if they tried.

The Viscount and Elthina aren't extreme.  And that turned out great for them.

Sadly, the extremes are what make the story.  Things would be boring if everything was working well in the Circle.   (I'm not disagreeing with you, but from a writing standpoint...conflict needs to be happen.)

[Arquen]

They both died.. like all the other mages and people and anyone else caught in the crossfire of people who wrought change?

I fail to see how that example is relevant. Neither Elthina or the Viscount actually DID anything. They were a "lets wait and see.. oh crap too late were dead.." minority in Thedas. Things hardly go well for people who sit on the sidelines and accept their fate in Thedas. That's just Thedas. Whether it is for literary purpose or drama or to just beef up that which is the Dragon Age -- The age named after the dragon -- symbol of turmoil, violence, fire, rebirth, etc. it still is pretty much the only way the status quo and the world changes.

[Naqey]

damn, I LOVE that Hogwarts picture! xD

berelinde wrote...
Wow, if I keep spouting off like this, I'll be writing up my own version of Anders's manifesto.

I have to hand it to you...! And an interesting read at that. Frankly, this is the one thing which I find most lacking in the whole mage resistance... their lack of a proper vision for "after". Sure, we know only snippets of Anders' manifesto, but what we get to know is all about why mage supression is actually a crime. I acknowledge that the population in Thedas and we here on the DA boards have reached different levels of insight into the problem. We here are pretty much in agreement that the Circle in its present form is a great evil. This insight cannot be taken for granted in Thedas, so Anders has to spend a lot of energy on first bringing across that point.

And still... he blew up the Chantry without telling people where he was actually heading, except for some vague "mages must be free" statements. That's when my Hawke would have loved to take Anders aside for just a second to frown at him: "genius! and where exactely do we go FROM HERE??"  How are you supposed to successfully win a war in such a way? Winning is not just beating the other side in all the battles. Winning, *really* winning, also includes that you need to built something after you have destroyed the old order. When you don't give people an alternative, they will probably lapse back into what was before, because they have nowhere else to turn. How do you agree on a ceasefire ? What kind of peace agreement can you envision ? What diplomacy is there?

So I very much welcome all the ideas for what we are going to do after the war... And I really like your vision, berelinde! You have all the "positive law", the rights and duties. But we also need "negative law", restrictive law, in the sense: what mages are forbidden to do. And most crucial: how you want to keep them from doing that.

I think Arquen spelt that out quite nicely (*grin* yes, we seem to agree on quite some things!): who governs the mages? And how?

Heidenreich wrote...
A.. mage commune, rather then a prison. A section of town where
mages-and-their-families can live comfortably and safe together. Where
templars are guardians and not jail-keepers. Like an Alienage, only less
.. bad. Where they can interact with society, and still have a safe
place to call home.

Maker, no! Having the mages live apart from the rest of society would not be a good idea. I agree with berelinde here, you have to bring mages into the centre of society, make them the most normal of things. Otherwise they'll never be accepted. Ghettos *never* work well. People will feel alienated from the group which lives in seclusion, they will start fearing and hating them.

[Melca36]

PresidentCowboy wrote...

Going to London MCM Expo later this month, hoping I can get Adam Howden to say "Of all the ridiculous, spineless, mind-controlled, senseless piece of s**t arguments I've ever heard!" on camera. Or "Twix, two biscuits dipped in caramel and chocolate". Too many wonderful Anders lines...

Oh My God!!

If you can get him to say any of those lines...that would be awesome!!!

[Arquen]

LOL, I don't think I have ever argued Anders more than I have the past couple of days... *Sigh* I blame boredom and YOU guys! for turning me down this path.

It's funny how I keep seeing Anders a bit differently each time I analyze him. It is like this love/hate (or dislike I should say) relationship with him. Yet more often than not I'm inclined to agree with him on most aspects, but his presentation of arguments is ... lacking. How I would long for a time to just sit with Anders and debate these topics. As a friend and fellow mage.

Instead of getting bogged into the abomination and Justice thing I do wish there was more about the beliefs he holds and what drives him and is there more to it than just Justice pushing him, and the Circle in Kirkwall pushing his buttons?

Anders has so much complexity I find it ridiculous to get to the bottom of it. Once I think I've made some kind of solid theory around him he goes and changes my interpretation or speculations. I find myself with him, against him, arguing for him, and disliking him all at the same time. I guess that's why I love his character so much.

bahh.. Anders ranting again. I must be bored...

[berelinde]

Arquen wrote...
... Yet more often than not I'm inclined to agree with him on most aspects, but his presentation of arguments is ... lacking. How I would long for a time to just sit with Anders and debate these topics. As a friend and fellow mage.
...

It's funny, but Anders's inability to present a convincing argument is one of the things I like about him, as is his tendency to say inappropriate things. There's a good reason for it. Much of my family has Aspberger's and I live with a guy who has it, too. You do get used to people who have a hard time expressing themselves and an even harder time stopping themselves from saying unintentionally hurtful things.So when Anders does it, I just sigh and think "Here we go again."

But yeah, it is annoying that you don't have a wider range of subjects to discuss with the guy. It makes me long for the days of player-initiated dialogue.

[Arquen]

The forums are so quiet these days.. I'm forced to get my entertainment other places now, LOL.

As for Anders.. it wasn't so much that I felt he was bad at expressing himself, but more that there was so much more to discuss with him than was allowed. We get bogged into his problems with Justice, and we don't get to debate with him about mages/templars. It's a shame, too, because the only way you even get a clip of his manifesto is rivalry.

I don't find his foot-in-mouth disease very endearing, but I don't hate him for it either. I guess I just go back and forth with him for various reasons. I never hate him though. I may dislike him at times, and he "irks" me at times, but I could never hate him. He's just the perfect ball of crazy and broken. It intrigues me while at the same time I go "whoah, whoah.. back up a sec crazy train..." LOL.

[YamiSnuffles]

I think it would be nice to have some sort of friend version of the manifesto scene. So, instead of trying to convince Hawke, he's just going over some of his ideas. Then Hawke could talk to him more about what he plans to do or if he even has any big picture ideas. At least by Act 3 he probably knows that death is a distinct possibility in his future. It would be nice to see some planning for the future. I know some people headcanon it that Anders is planning on having Hawke take over if/when he dies. For a rather revolutionary Hawke, it makes sense, but we don't get to see much of that in game.

[berelinde]

I think it would be nice to have some Yami art! It just so happens that I have some. Thanks, YamiSnuffles!

Anders doesn't really have a concept of privacy, so he uses the opportunity of Iain's semi-private bath to teach him about Kirkwall's violent history.