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[YamiSnuffles]

berelinde wrote...
Anders doesn't really have a concept of privacy, so he uses the opportunity of Iain's semi-private bath to teach him about Kirkwall's violent history.

Haha, I didn't even really think about that part too closely.

Anders: Oh, you knicked yourself shaving? Don't worry. I'm sure a few more drops of blood won't do much compared to the flood of slave blood that ran through Kirkwall. Here, let me read you the passage where they describe just how they bled them.
Iain: 


EDIT: Top eh? Well, I don't think the Ameowican Gothic has been posted here.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 04 octobre 2011 - 11:03 .

[berelinde]

That is terrifying. And priceless!

[Arquen]

LMAO -- I agree berelinde, both terrifying and priceless crack.

I suppose Anders wouldn't have much shame, LOL. In the circle you didn't have any privacy. In the Wardens he might have had some for a while, but then when they came to scrutinize him probably not much there either. So I could totally see him barging in on Hawke in the bath or privvy or something and being like "what? This isn't normal?" LOL.

[Naqey]

Arquen wrote...

LOL, I don't think I have ever argued Anders more than I have the past couple of days... *Sigh* I blame boredom and YOU guys! for turning me down this path.

It's funny how I keep seeing Anders a bit differently each time I analyze him. It is like this love/hate (or dislike I should say) relationship with him. Yet more often than not I'm inclined to agree with him on most aspects, but his presentation of arguments is ... lacking. How I would long for a time to just sit with Anders and debate these topics. As a friend and fellow mage.

Instead of getting bogged into the abomination and Justice thing I do wish there was more about the beliefs he holds and what drives him and is there more to it than just Justice pushing him, and the Circle in Kirkwall pushing his buttons?

Anders has so much complexity I find it ridiculous to get to the bottom of it. Once I think I've made some kind of solid theory around him he goes and changes my interpretation or speculations. I find myself with him, against him, arguing for him, and disliking him all at the same time. I guess that's why I love his character so much.

Well said! In addition to your "I keep seeing Anders differently each time", I find myself agonizing over him to an amount I've hardly ever done about other ficitional characters. Love/dislike relationship indeed!

He's just not to be fixed (in the sense of: you cannot savely put him into one box and that's it), Anders is too complex for that. That's what actually hurts me most about all the undifferentiated Anders-hate posts. I don't even want these guys to like Anders... even *I'm* not sure to what extent I like Anders sometimes... but they should at least be fair enough to acknowledge just how ambiguous he is.

I agree with him many times, and at other times he can be such a f***** ass! 

berelinde wrote...
You do get used to people who have a hard time expressing themselves
and an even harder time stopping themselves from saying unintentionally
hurtful things.So when Anders does it, I just sigh and think "Here we go
again."

But that's just it: Anders doesn't do these things unintentionally. He may be a lot of things, but he's not autistic! I'm convinced that he is well aware of what he is saying, and what effect it has on people, and he just gives a damn about it. This has led me to moments of intense Anders dislike.

My most hurtful experience in this regard came when we had just killed Danarius; Fenris is completely shaken and feels lost after his sister betrayed him;  my Hawke told him that he is not alone in this, that he has friends. And what does that bastard Anders do, in the most sarcastic and invidious voice he says something along the lines of "well, surely not me!". After his already genius comment "you sister's a mage! You bloody hypocrit, you really are just jealous!" He got me so mad with this, I took him out of my part just to replay that scence. I *never* take Anders out of my party, never. Even if he doesn't like Fenris, he and Hawke have been lovers for some six years now, he must know that Hawke considers Fenris a friend, and yet he doesn't have enough tactfulness  to at least shut up and remain silent. Is that too much to ask for? 

Anders is such a bigot. As much as I agree with many of the opinions he holds, does he have to go around rubbing it into people's faces?. And yet, he is that silly lovable guy, who likes jokes, who'll play the lute even though he doesn't know how to, who cannot even put away his own socks, who is so childish to stuff his manifesto into every book in the house, and who can get all silly over cats... who will strain himself to heal people in need, who is a devoted and affectionate lover to the extent that his love can even transcend his bigotry. He is quick in dismissing other people because of their (perceived) attitude, and yet he will never dismiss Hawke...

I can't make sense of him... I don't know what to think of him, or maybe that's the wrong way to put it: I don't know what to think about myself. He gets me to argue in the most incoherent manner ever. For him, against him, all at the same time. He makes me question convictions I've held... and sometimes I'm desperate to justify to myself just why I like him so much oO 

GODDAMNIT , ANDERS! (I might just steal your banner, Arquen)

Modifié par Naqey, 05 octobre 2011 - 08:51 .

[Arquen]

Muahahah it sums my thoughts about Anders up nicely I think, LOL. I was thinking of making a new one actually.

Oh god.. don't bring up the Danarius scene -- that leads to bad places on this thread, LOL. Mostly Fenris bashing and back and forth on who is the bigger jerkface. Especially his line if you sell Fenris back to Danarius-- "I thought I was the only one thinking that!" Anders.. sometimes your foot-in-mouth disease just irks me, LOL. I know it is Anders being Anders, but it really wins him no points when he says such things.

I agree that if it were a matter of Anders having a hard time expressing himself it would be somewhat less frustrating. As it is though he is very educated and quite well spoken. He writes manifestos and can make an epic speech and lecture. Even when you first meet him he is quite eloquent in his thoughts until he goes "but I don't want to argue..." I'm left going "no, please.. argue!" LOL.

As for why you like him. Because he challenges you. He challenges everyone he meets. He is a puzzle. An enigma. Without a solution. His tragedy, his personality, his very nature is something that is contradictory and at odds with itself. Also, because I think all Anders fans are slightly crazy. I don't think you can be an Anders fan and not be one fry short of a Happy Meal. LOL.

[berelinde]

Naqey wrote...

Arquen wrote...

LOL, I don't think I have ever argued Anders more than I have the past couple of days... *Sigh* I blame boredom and YOU guys! for turning me down this path.

It's funny how I keep seeing Anders a bit differently each time I analyze him. It is like this love/hate (or dislike I should say) relationship with him. Yet more often than not I'm inclined to agree with him on most aspects, but his presentation of arguments is ... lacking. How I would long for a time to just sit with Anders and debate these topics. As a friend and fellow mage.

Instead of getting bogged into the abomination and Justice thing I do wish there was more about the beliefs he holds and what drives him and is there more to it than just Justice pushing him, and the Circle in Kirkwall pushing his buttons?

Anders has so much complexity I find it ridiculous to get to the bottom of it. Once I think I've made some kind of solid theory around him he goes and changes my interpretation or speculations. I find myself with him, against him, arguing for him, and disliking him all at the same time. I guess that's why I love his character so much.

Well said! In addition to your "I keep seeing Anders differently each time", I find myself agonizing over him to an amount I've hardly ever done about other ficitional characters. Love/dislike relationship indeed!

He's just not to be fixed (in the sense of: you cannot savely put him into one box and that's it), Anders is too complex for that. That's what actually hurts me most about all the undifferentiated Anders-hate posts. I don't even want these guys to like Anders... even *I'm* not sure to what extent I like Anders sometimes... but they should at least be fair enough to acknowledge just how ambiguous he is.

I agree with him many times, and at other times he can be such a f***** ass! 

berelinde wrote...
You do get used to people who have a hard time expressing themselves
and an even harder time stopping themselves from saying unintentionally
hurtful things.So when Anders does it, I just sigh and think "Here we go
again."

But that's just it: Anders doesn't do these things unintentionally. He may be a lot of things, but he's not autistic! I'm convinced that he is well aware of what he is saying, and what effect it has on people, and he just gives a damn about it. This has led me to moments of intense Anders dislike.

My most hurtful experience in this regard came when we had just killed Danarius; Fenris is completely shaken and feels lost after his sister betrayed him;  my Hawke told him that he is not alone in this, that he has friends. And what does that bastard Anders do, in the most sarcastic and invidious voice he says something along the lines of "well, surely not me!". After his already genius comment "you sister's a mage! You bloody hypocrit, you really are just jealous!" He got me so mad with this, I took him out of my part just to replay that scence. I *never* take Anders out of my party, never. Even if he doesn't like Fenris, he and Hawke have been lovers for some six years now, he must know that Hawke considers Fenris a friend, and yet he doesn't have enough tactfulness  to at least shut up and remain silent. Is that too much to ask for? 

Anders is such a bigot. As much as I agree with many of the opinions he holds, does he have to go around rubbing it into people's faces?. And yet, he is that silly lovable guy, who likes jokes, who'll play the lute even though he doesn't know how to, who cannot even put away his own socks, who is so childish to stuff his manifesto into every book in the house, and who can get all silly over cats... who will strain himself to heal people in need, who is a devoted and affectionate lover to the extent that his love can even transcend his bigotry. He is quick in dismissing other people because of their (perceived) attitude, and yet he will never dismiss Hawke...

I can't make sense of him... I don't know what to think of him, or maybe that's the wrong way to put it: I don't know what to think about myself. He gets me to argue in the most incoherent manner ever. For him, against him, all at the same time. He makes me question convictions I've held... and sometimes I'm desperate to justify to myself just why I like him so much oO 

GODDAMNIT , ANDERS! (I might just steal your banner, Arquen)

You see it that way. You cannot speak for everyone.

Anders is not autistic but he has definitely lost the ability to stop himself from saying any stupid thing that pops into his head. Many people who have a lot on their minds do that whether they have autism or not. Also, Fenris is not Hawke. When he says inappropriate things to Hawke, he is probably kicking himself afterward, thinking "I don't believe the things that come out of my mouth." But what's said is said. He's probably just hoping nobody notices. He is certainly sensitive and caring enough to provide real comfort to Hawke after Leandra's death. When he says it to Fenris, it is a totally different animal. As for the "You're a hypocrite!" thing, pfft! They troll each other nonstop throughout the game. Nothing to see there. Fenris does not hesitate for a moment to kick Anders when he is down. Repeatedly.

And I'd just as soon avoid the Anders-bashing, thanks. There's been an awful lot of it going on lately, here as well as elsewhere. If you don't want Fenris-bashing (or honest observation of character flaws, as the case may be), that is.

Late for work; gotta run. Thought I'd check the thread first and wish I hadn't. It's like walking onto an archery range.

Modifié par berelinde, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:58 .

[esper]

Anders is absolutely not autistic, but you don't have to be autistic to put you foot in your mouth.
Anders and Fenris are jerks to each other. They are equally bad in that department, and I am sure it is deliberate.

[Heidenreich]

berelinde wrote...

Naqey wrote...
*epic quote tree snip*

You see it that way. You cannot speak for everyone.

Anders is not autistic but he has definitely lost the ability to stop himself from saying any stupid thing that pops into his head. Many people who have a lot on their minds do that whether they have autism or not. Also, Fenris is not Hawke. When he says inappropriate things to Hawke, he is probably kicking himself afterward, thinking "I don't believe the things that come out of my mouth." But what's said is said. He's probably just hoping nobody notices. He is certainly sensitive and caring enough to provide real comfort to Hawke after Leandra's death. When he says it to Fenris, it is a totally different animal. As for the "You're a hypocrite!" thing, pfft! They troll each other nonstop throughout the game. Nothing to see there. Fenris does not hesitate for a moment to kick Anders when he is down. Repeatedly.

And I'd just as soon avoid the Anders-bashing, thanks. There's been an awful lot of it going on lately, here as well as elsewhere. If you don't want Fenris-bashing (or honest observation of character flaws, as the case may be), that is.

Late for work; gotta run. Thought I'd check the thread first and wish I hadn't. It's like walking onto an archery range.

*gives berelinde a hug* It's okay, she's not actually bashing Anders at all. She's actually contemplating him. Which is good.

Also, there is in fact a scene where Fenris does not kick Anders when he's down. But that's neither here nore there.

I gaurentee Anders is very aware of the things that come out of his mouth. I'm also inclined to believe he's never had an internal stopper. Even pre-justice/vengence. Though to be fair BEFORE Justice it was intentionally done. Now, not so much.

So, he knows what he's thinking, but can't really stop himself from saying them. But, I'm pretty positive he never regrets them either. Especially when it comes to Fenris, who he hates. It's pretty much always easy to be petty and ****y towards and around people you severely dislike.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 05 octobre 2011 - 12:09 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Now, I like Fenris and all, but I've never gotten that line from Anders because my Hawke was already yelling at Fenris. Because that takes place after his whole magic has ruined my life yet again schtick right? Yeah... no. Your sister being a dick is to blame there, Fen. Not magic. So my canon Hawke ends up grumping at him at that point.

I believe my rogue Hawke was much nicer to him (and didn't even bring Anders along on that mission). Canon Hawke, though, doesn't ever put up with Fenris blaming magic for every single problem in his life. So I would guess she and Anders had an insensitive high five after that.

EDIT: And I feel this comic is appropriate.


by limpstella

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 05 octobre 2011 - 12:25 .

[SurelyForth]

The scene where Fenris doesn't kick Anders when he's down only counts so much in my book because he gets him pretty good later (and it's not even heat of the moment, like when Anders calls Fenris a hypocrite, it's just offhanded mockery/cruely).

They're both terrible about each other and Merrill and have assholish tendencies in general. It's why, despite my unholy love for Anders, I do wish Varric was a LI sometimes just to give players who want a male LI who isn't a jerk a chance to love someone who doesn't make them cringe on a regular basis.

[YamiSnuffles]

This is why I ran off with Isabela for a playthrough. She was like my sexy fun vacation from the male LI **** storm. And instead of ripping apart companions when they're down, she's Ms. Supportive. Although, I certainly wouldn't have said no to Varric.

Oh Anders, why you so crazy? And why do I keep romancing you despite it all?

[Arquen]

I romanced Isabela in one playthrough with my male archer. It was.. fine. I was hoping for more. It felt like it didn't pick up until the end of Act 2 and then Act 3 and the conclusion was kind of "meh." I much preferred my Fenris romance, LOL.

I just sort of roll my eyes when Anders does his no filter - open mouth, insert foot - thing. I don't expect him to change it. I don't hate him for it. I don't think I've ever "character bashed" any character... hmm. When the forums take that kind of turn I usually skip out on the "discussion."

Also, I try really hard to keep any Fenris talk in his thread. It doesn't belong here. As I try to keep Anders talk out of the Fenris thread. Safe place and boundaries and all that.

Here I just try to be an Anders fan, and I will defend Anders just like anyone else for being the wonderfully complex bottle of crazy awesome that he is.

[Heidenreich]

SurelyForth wrote...

The scene where Fenris doesn't kick Anders when he's down only counts so much in my book because he gets him pretty good later (and it's not even heat of the moment, like when Anders calls Fenris a hypocrite, it's just offhanded mockery/cruely).

Truth, but the nasty only returns later, after Anders has had at least a little bit of time. Because while Fenris does indeed like to needle Anders, he does have an internal stopper.. and Anders doesn't, which is something I actually love about him. It's one of Anders' fabulous quirks that makes him Anders. **** falls out of his mouth, and he always means it in the moment, and more often then not never not means it. Even in Awakening, Anders would say what he's thinking, it would just be half-jokingly to be able to play it off if he needed too... ;p

They're both terrible about each other and Merrill and have assholish tendencies in general. It's why, despite my unholy love for Anders, I do wish Varric was a LI sometimes just to give players who want a male LI who isn't a jerk a chance to love someone who doesn't make them cringe on a regular basis.

I would kill for Varric as a LI. I keep trying to Romance Isabela, but for some reason I flirt with Merrill once and then she;s like "Don't Save me!" and I'm all *wibble* and then Isabel ends up falling at the wayside.

[berelinde]

Heidenreich wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

The scene where Fenris doesn't kick Anders when he's down only counts so much in my book because he gets him pretty good later (and it's not even heat of the moment, like when Anders calls Fenris a hypocrite, it's just offhanded mockery/cruely).

Truth, but the nasty only returns later, after Anders has had at least a little bit of time.

Premeditated malice is better than spontaneous jabs? That isn't to say that Anders doesn't nurse his grievances. He most definitely does, and it's part of what is driving him mad. It's just that he is kind of like an overinflated balloon (let's avoid the "full of hot air" barbs, please, I'm using it as an example of a fragile container under pressure). The pressure builds, somebody (usually Fenris) comes along with a pin, there's a loud, disturbing POP, and it's over... until next time. In other words, if Anders is going to attack somebody, he does it right then and there. He doesn't go home, stew on it for a while, choose his words for maximum damage, and then deliver the line when his victim is just strolling through Kirkwall minding his own business. No, he saves that obsession for endlessly writing and re-writing his manifesto. For all the good it does him.

Touchy today. I should probably avoid the forums until it passes.

[Collider]

Considering that Fenris essentially has views that are opposite of Anders', I don't fault him too much for disliking Fenris as he does. Even Anders' apparent approval of Hawke selling Fenris back into slavery. That's what hate does to people. If Anders had not been so close to the situation, I would assume that Anders would disagree on principle anyway.

[SurelyForth]

I just realized how long it's been since I changed the thread title. I need to rectify that...

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

I just realized how long it's been since I changed the thread title. I need to rectify that...

I will admit to thinking about this fact more than is perhaps healthy. I would be doing something else entirely, when our unchanged thread title would pop into my head.

I have spent so many weeks, aching for a new thread title. I thought perhaps I wanted this thread title here until the day I died, but now I'm starting to wish I'd just offered it a sandwich and sent it on its way. Because, really, my need for an everchanging title will always come first. If this title hangs around, I'll only hurt it.

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I just realized how long it's been since I changed the thread title. I need to rectify that...

I will admit to thinking about this fact more than is perhaps healthy. I would be doing something else entirely, when our unchanged thread title would pop into my head.

I have spent so many weeks, aching for a new thread title. I thought perhaps I wanted this thread title here until the day I died, but now I'm starting to wish I'd just offered it a sandwich and sent it on its way. Because, really, my need for an everchanging title will always come first. If this title hangs around, I'll only hurt it.

I don't know, keeping this thread title will be a disaster. The question is- can we live without it?

Does Anders say anything about Orlais...ever? That might be a nice lead up to the new DLC.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:21 .

[Heidenreich]

berelinde wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

The scene where Fenris doesn't kick Anders when he's down only counts so much in my book because he gets him pretty good later (and it's not even heat of the moment, like when Anders calls Fenris a hypocrite, it's just offhanded mockery/cruely).

Truth, but the nasty only returns later, after Anders has had at least a little bit of time.

Premeditated malice is better than spontaneous jabs? That isn't to say that Anders doesn't nurse his grievances. He most definitely does, and it's part of what is driving him mad. It's just that he is kind of like an overinflated balloon (let's avoid the "full of hot air" barbs, please, I'm using it as an example of a fragile container under pressure). The pressure builds, somebody (usually Fenris) comes along with a pin, there's a loud, disturbing POP, and it's over... until next time. In other words, if Anders is going to attack somebody, he does it right then and there. He doesn't go home, stew on it for a while, choose his words for maximum damage, and then deliver the line when his victim is just strolling through Kirkwall minding his own business. No, he saves that obsession for endlessly writing and re-writing his manifesto. For all the good it does him.

Touchy today. I should probably avoid the forums until it passes.

Wow you are touchy today. Maybe I should scoot over and offer you a spot under Arquen and I's extra fluffy flannel blanket by the fire? There's always room for more snuggles!

Also, next time you run Dissent and go confront Anders afterwards about it, bring Fenris. You might just be sprised

[jamesp81]

Naqey wrote...

If mages aren't inherently more powerful than other people, then how come that the one country we know of in which restrictions on mages are very little is actually ruled by mages? I do not doubt that an ordinary mage is no more powerful/deadly than any well trained rogue or warrior. It is the extremes I am talking about; mages' "power extremes"  tend to far outdo those of non-mages. There must be some kind of system that keeps the extremes in check.

But maybe it's my choice of the term "system" which causes the real irritation. I'm not talking about some repressive circle-like institution. Not at all! My point is just that, mages need a special kind of "socializing" which keeps them from misusing their power, because the potential is always there. I'm not sure exactely how we are to go about. The Dalish, as I see it, do it by making mages their keepers; they give them special training which instills them with a sense of responsibility and purpose. But their system only works because of their closely knit tribal society with a general sense of belonging.

But maybe what you have written already contains the germ of a vision. Solitivus is actually a very good example! Solitivus is well-trained. He has been taught about his powers, an knows that they come with a certain responsibility. He has a purpose in life; his gift is not a burden to him, but actually an integral part of who he is and how he can positively contribute to society. So maybe all the "system" that is needed is... HOGWARTS. Just kidding, couldn't contain myself. But seriously, maybe all that is needed is some kind of non-repressive mage-school.

Actually, Rivain has very few restrictions as well, and its certainly not Tevinter.

[Jean]

Rivain feels like it's sorta like the Carribean of Thedas

[Pris81]

SurelyForth wrote...
Does Anders say anything about Orlais...ever? That might be a nice lead up to the new DLC.

As I remember, he says something about orlesian ladies in Awakening, when meeting the Baroness. But that's Awakening Anders, which means "another story"... There must be some youtube, but I have no sound in my computer right now.

[Never]

Hey guys, I had a quick Anders question so I figured I'd ask the experts. With the recent side with templars ending fix, is it possible to get as just a friend? (rival friend that is) Or romance only?

[berelinde]

No, the only way to get Anders to go along on a "side with the templars" ending is to be fully rivaled (romance is not necessary), complete Justice all the way to the end, have the conversation where Justice assumes direct control, and choose a specific dialogue option while he's sitting on the box. Friends get attacked in the Gallows.

Edit: Thanks, Heiden. Been one of those days. When that happens, it's best to avoid the forums until it's over.

Modifié par berelinde, 05 octobre 2011 - 09:10 .

[Never]

Thanks!