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[Tyrium]

I'm not sure he and Namaya were together - it seems more to me that he wheedled his way into her helping him - the sweetalking wasn't sexual, it was just "charming innocent young man".

Personally, I don't think he'd lie to get someone into bed (about expectations, anyway). I think he'd have made it clear he was after a one-nighter in his playboy days.

[Nilfalasiel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Are you talking about the theory I made up a hundred and something pages back? Because if so, here is what I said, ignoring how horribly written it is;

I think it might be tied to the way he has related to his partners over the years. From what he says in Awakening, he seems to have been a bit of a womanizer, jumping rather indiscriminately from bed to bed and
leaving quite a few broken hearts in his wake. Once he merged with Justice, he must have seen how awful his behavior has been and felt very guilty about it. Flirting with Hawke with his old Awakening self, he might have spotted yet another pattern of him being romantically involved with a woman who only ended up being heartbroken over it so he panics and puts the foot down rather quickly. With male lovers, of whom only Karl is mentioned, he might not have that kind of baggage.

Yeah, I have a problem with the "he grows a conscience because of Justice" part, because he wasn't completely heartless pre-DA2 either. He was certainly no saint, but I can't see him purposefully lying to someone (of whichever gender) about what kind of commitment they can expect from him (ie. none) simply to get laid, or seducing someone who obviously expects more than sex from him. That seems like a jerk move, even for pre-Justice Anders. And from personal experience, I know I could never forgive someone who did that. 

Now, of course, hearts could very well have been broken without there ever being any lying involved. You can't exactly control feelings, even if you know the other person is not in it for the long haul and has made it perfectly clear. That one I can roll with.

There's also the fact that Justice, or rather Vengeance (because Justice does have the Aura episode), is not interested in anything except the cause of mages. He sees Anders' romantic feelings as a distraction, so apart from trying to dismiss them, I don't see why he would want to affect that part of his thoughts in any way. Had it actually been Justice as we knew him in Awakening, I might have expected him to try to make Anders more just in every aspect of his character, personal life included. But not Vengeance. It's "mages or GTFO" with him.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 18 octobre 2011 - 12:59 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

That depends entirely on how you view his merger with Justice. I personally think of them as adopting many of each other's traits - it's not just Justice or just Anders. Justice may not willfully affect the way Anders thinks, but he is a part of him, and so Anders adopts many of personality traits and way of thinking. Otherwise, why else would Anders waggle his finger at Isabela for being selfish? Why else would he run a clinic for Fereldan refugees if all there was to the merger was Justice getting anger issues and Anders getting a glowy back seat driver?

Not so much how you view the merger as how you view Justice, I'd say. I never saw Justice as having personality traits. He's a spirit, he's not a person, and no matter how "humanised" he was becoming in Awakening, he was still very single-minded: everything eventually came back to justice, even his situation with Kristoff and Aura. Had he remained as Justice in Kristoff's body for longer...who knows? But most of that progression is gone in DA2. Anders himself says as much: "He is no longer my friend, but a spirit of Vengeance. And he doesn't know mercy" (or was it "and he has no concept of mercy"?). He's not about justice for everyone anymore: he's specifically out to get retribution for what's being done to mages (and even that can misfire, as in the Ella situation). I don't think the merger made Anders adopt any new personality traits that he didn't have before either. I see it as toning down his selfishness. Other than that, he's really not all that different from his Awakening self, I find. He was simply in different circumstances back then and could not allow himself to get tied down, even had he wanted to (and while it is jokey, his comment about settling down with a fat wife does seem to indicate that he would enjoy stability, if it were at all possible).

But in the end, of course, it all boils down to opinions.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 18 octobre 2011 - 01:37 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Let's just agree to disagree, then. I've been involved in so many dicussions regarding Justice and the nature of spirits that I don't have the stamina for yet another one. I'm starting to get old

Lol, fair enough. It's just that I think people tend to anthropomorphise Justice a bit too readily. Kind of like what happens with Legion in ME. I don't think the differences are mild enough to be overlooked. But maybe that's just me.

[Nilfalasiel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Legion is a robot. Spirits are beings that occur naturally and displays human intellect and to which there are no real-world equivalent. You can't really say it's "anthromorphism" to attribute human characteristics to them - they're not animals or things or abstract concepts. Merrill certainly seemed to think of them as their own people.

But then, if they are their own people with no real-world equivalent, why would you apply human characteristics to them? They may think in patterns that are recognisable, but they still operate on abstract concepts a lot more than humans do.

And while Legion is non-organic, it (or rather, geth, since you can't really separate them) is also a sentient being endowed with self-awareness and a form of intellect with no real-world equivalent. Similar situation.

[Sialater]

Justice has a defined personality, Legion doesn't. But Justice is more binary than Legion. For Legion, everything is grey. For Justice, everything is black and white.

[Nilfalasiel]

Heh, this entire discussion reminds me of the debate I once had with my Shakespeare teacher about whether you could (or should) ascribe "human" characteristics to Shakespearean characters. His opinion was that they were theatrical constructs, and you couldn't simply assume anything about their "personalities" just because they looked and outwardly behaved like "real" people.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Only if you define "personality traits" as exclusively human characteristics. When you have several different kinds of sentient beings who each displays human levels of intellects, I don't think it's as easily definable.

And why should that prevent them from having personality traits?

It doesn't prevent them from having personality traits, but it's been said several times and by several different sources that spirits and demons were all governed by one major characteristic, not several. That's why Justice calls himself Justice: that one characteristic is who he is. It's his personality. The grand majority of his thought patterns revolve around it, and when they don't, he feels uncomfortable about it. His conversations with other party members are mostly about what's just and unjust (when they're not about the state of decay of Kristoff's body or the difference between spirits and demons). His willingness to help the Warden stems from a sense of justice. Him ultimately leaving Kristoff's body stems from a sense of justice towards Aura, and this despite the envy he was starting to feel (and which he himself said was a demon's emotion, ie. not something he should be feeling). Him offering to merge with Anders stems from a desire for justice. In fact, any emotions that are too strong and unrelated to justice appear to be harmful to him (from the examples of envy and anger that we're given to see).

So yes, all this occurs at a human level of intellect, in the sense that they're higher thought processes that are understandable to a human, but it's not how a regular human being thinks or operates.

Sorry for turning this into a debate!

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 18 octobre 2011 - 02:54 .

[Lady Jess]

So sort of related to the current discussion. Having never rivaled Anders, (and only EVER speccing the healing side of his talents), is "Vengeance" more prevalent when rivaled? Because I seem to see more Justice on the friendship path with only a few episodes of Vengeance. I always thought Karl was more raging Justice, because he was unjustly tranquilized. Ella (not the Templars prior to that) and the Chantry were the only Vengeance I have really seen.

[cmessaz]

Lady Jess wrote...

So sort of related to the current discussion. Having never rivaled Anders, (and only EVER speccing the healing side of his talents), is "Vengeance" more prevalent when rivaled? Because I seem to see more Justice on the friendship path with only a few episodes of Vengeance. I always thought Karl was more raging Justice, because he was unjustly tranquilized. Ella (not the Templars prior to that) and the Chantry were the only Vengeance I have really seen.

Yus...and it's kinda hot.

[Nilfalasiel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

That's a virtue to which he aspires to, like he says himself. That doesn't mean he doesn't have a personality, or even a human-like one. That's like saying the Qunari don't have personalities because of their single-minded obsession with the Qun.

I didn't say he didn't have a personality: I said that his personality was predominantly based on one characteristic, unlike what a normal human being's personality would be.

The Qun is a choice and a life-philosophy imposed on a group of people, not the natural personality of an individual. Qunari thought processes are not based on one idea like "faith", "justice", "pride" or "rage", and the Qun itself is a broader concept of how an entire society should function. You can't narrow it down to one thing like "obedience", "certainty",  "belonging" or even "being". The qunari can also choose to leave the Qun. Justice can't voluntarily choose to stop being Justice. 

Also, Justice is not a being of the material world, while the qunari are. They come from very different contexts.

Which is fine, but still doesn't mean he doesn't possess a personality because he consistently displays human-like feelings and reactions to the world around him and its inhabitants. He is a serious fellow who angers easily, occasionally uses sarcasm, is curious enough to try "beverages" just to see what they taste like. He admires the world for its beauty, he envies and feels guilty about it. He feels insecure about his role in the world. All of that constitutes having a personality to me.

He tells Anders that enslaving a cat is wrong and that he should be concerned about justice for mages. He tells Velanna that she should atone for the murders she committed, he berates Sigrun for stealing, he urges Nate to atone for attempting to rob the Vigil. As for the beverages convo, he remarks that Oghren is preoccupied with them and then refuses to try when he offers. You can't really deny the single-mindedness. This is not a personality that a regular human being would have.

There is some humanisation that occurs, I agree, but nowhere near the extent of turning him into a human being. He doesn't understand compromise, and he doesn't understand attenuating circumstances. He also has no concept of time (and therefore, patience; this is from a DA2 convo)...and by extension, that would mean that he has no understanding of human life. And again, don't forget that all his humanisation gets cancelled out by the merger. Vengeance is not Justice. Not by a long shot.

Lady Jess wrote...

So sort of related to the current discussion. Having never rivaled Anders, (and only EVER speccing the healing side of his talents), is "Vengeance" more prevalent when rivaled? Because I seem to see more Justice on the friendship path with only a few episodes of Vengeance. I always thought Karl was more raging Justice, because he was unjustly tranquilized. Ella (not the Templars prior to that) and the Chantry were the only Vengeance I have really seen.

The difference with the rivalry path is that Anders actively struggles against Justice rather than trying to work with him. This causes a neater split between them, with the consequence that Vengeance ends up ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL more often.

Also, Anders says that Justice technically doesn't exist anymore, or, at least, that whenever the spirit manifests, it's Vengeance, not Justice. He simply refers to him as Justice out of habit, I suppose.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

My point is that he has a personality. Briefly defined, a personality is made up of the characteristics, feelings and behaviors that makes an individual, well, individual. Justice has that. Is he exactly human? No, but then again that is not the argument I'm trying to make.

And I never denied the fact that he has one. It's just not a human personality. It's overwhelmingly (if not entirely) based on one trait, especially if you remove the external influences that the human world has on him.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 18 octobre 2011 - 03:51 .

[Nilfalasiel]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

You said that he didn't have personality traits. How else am I supposed to interpret that?

It's the plural of "traits" I was debating: that he has multiple, roughly equivalent personality traits the way a human would. I bolded and underlined the "s", but I probably should have spelled it out for clarity. My bad, sorry.

But yeah, all this was originally to say that I don't see the merger as drastically modifying Anders: he still seems much the same person as in Awakening to me, just with a markedly lesser emphasis on his own wellbeing. Ie. he's less selfish, he has a much worse opinion of himself, and his sense of self-preservation gradually decreases. If anything, the one who was more significantly changed by the process is Justice.

[Amondra]

 

I don't if someone has shared this, but I just had too.

[Nilfalasiel]

Lol @ the comic.

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Also:

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

It is because of the merging with Justice. Anders in DAII is a combination of their personalities, plus a general darkening of both of them because the merger went so poorly.

Yeah, I've seen this post. Doesn't contradict what either of us has been saying, so it's all good

[cmessaz]

....poor Anders.

[Jackalope]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

If you rival Anders and side with the Templars (well, it's the only way to make him side with the Templars), it's implied that he kills himself afterwards. Cf. his "I cannot live past this" line. I'm more surprised by the fact that he doesn't kill himself instead of agreeing to help you.

But yes, to all intents and purposes, that would mean that the relationship is over.

Gaaaaaaaaaaaah I was going to do a Rivalmance and side with the Templars...but I think that's too much for me.  Don't get me wrong, it's very bittersweet, and I'm okay with less-than-happy-endings...but damn.