57019 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyVaJedi]

I also agree that Anders did the French Revolution thing as well. I am thinking that he only planted the bomb. Someone else must have ignited the bomb in the building.

[esper]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

I also agree that Anders did the French Revolution thing as well. I am thinking that he only planted the bomb. Someone else must have ignited the bomb in the building.

I think it was his staff slamming to the ground.

[LadyVaJedi]

True.

[Heidenreich]

Exactly. Elthina in and of herself is not an evil person. She did nothing wrong, except that she did nothing AT ALL. If at any point in those 7 years she removed Stannard from power, which she was fully capable of doing, the perhaps the situation would not have gotten so dire. Anders would have instead continued on his merry Mage Underground path.

BUT, again, it's not Elthina and its not the Kirkwall Chantry that are the true targets. He doesn't blow up the chantry because he hates Elthina. He blows up the chantry to force Meredith over the edge.

People tend to forget that the Chantry is the real power in Thedas. If the Chantry officially sanctions the Rite, then the general populous would NOT challenge it. At all. It would be an offical order from the Chantry, and there by is instantly ratified in the eyes of the people. Even other CIRCLES and MAGES wouldn't question it. Because if Val Royeaux says its kosher, then it must be.

So, by taking out the CHANTRY (the power behind the templars), it places Meredith as the one true power in Kirkwall.

But, had Meredith not been INSANE in the first place, she would have instantly taken Anders into custody and held a public trial. Anders would have been condemned to death by the local populous, and the whole thing would have started and ended RIGHT THERE.

That's not what she does though. Instead she turns around and says "SEE WHAT MAGES DO. KILL THEM ALL."

Which, from what we ALREADY know about Kirkwall, they would be vehemently against blaming the Circle for something they didn't DO. The codex's, Cullen, and various other npc's make it fairly clear that NO ONE in kirkwall likes the templars. For the Templars to blame innocents for something that ANDERS did, with out the Templars taking Anders into custody INSTANTLY (especially when they easily had the ability to) would cause outrage well beyond the city itself.

Which is the point.

We know by the end of the game (credits rolling) that no matter what side your on in the debate, the aftershock of what happened in Kirkwall caused the remaining circles in Thedas to revolt -- why? Because of blatant abuse by the chantry and the Templars. The circle wasn't designed to be a prison. It's original concept was to keep mages safe from the outside world while allowing them to practice their magic in peace.

The Templar order was created to PROTECT mages, not abuse them. The Situation in Kirkwall was a perfect example of how far from that idea the whole system had fallen. 800 years later and Mages are criminals simply for EXISTING.


I'm getting a bit rambly , but the point is there ;p Agree or disagree with the act ITSELF, but the point was to start a war, and just taking out Meredith wouldn't have done that.

[blaidfiste]

I just want food, water and freedom for mages

[MICHELLE7]

Heidenreich wrote...

Exactly. Elthina in and of herself is not an evil person. She did nothing wrong, except that she did nothing AT ALL.

Not only with the mages but with Petrice as well. She said she had eyes to see when  Petrice was protesting Hawkes explanation as to what happened with the Viscount's son. I wonder how much she knew before hand. If she did indeed know...then her inaction on that front...if not direct contributor to the Qunari situation was at the very least an indirect one. As I recall some people thought she needed to be replaced because she had become inaffective over the years.

[Ryzaki]

esper wrote...

LadyVaJedi wrote...

I also agree that Anders did the French Revolution thing as well. I am thinking that he only planted the bomb. Someone else must have ignited the bomb in the building.

I think it was his staff slamming to the ground.

Yes I believe the staff slamming on the ground was a remote trigger. 

Not to poster I quoted: 

And there's such lovely people on the Anders thread. So quick to shove their noses in the air and judge people . 

[Heidenreich]

Ryzaki wrote...


Not to poster I quoted: 

And there's such lovely people on the Anders thread. So quick to shove their noses in the air and judge people . 

WUT

I'M SO CONFUSED.

[Arquen]

What bothers me so much about Elthina is her "I'm sure my name doesn't like that..." kind of attitude, but then her CHOICE to remain passive.

That whole "she is a gentle mother," laissez faire way of trying to do her job makes her incompetent. She knows the reports, and the rumors, and the conflict that Orsino and Meredith have. She even tells Meredith straight to her face "now go back to the Gallows, like a good girl," and guess what... Meredith DOES.

The Chantry was chosen over the Templars and an assasination of Meredith because of what it represents. Not only in Kirkwall but everywhere in Thedas. It is the Chantry who has built the propaganda and fear around mages. Stories about abominations, the black city, and Tevinter as well as the Circle and mages themselves. It isn't just Meredith, it is the power the Chantry holds over mages that Anders is targeting. As stated.. he is starting a war. He is removing the chance of compromise between Templars and Mages and the Chantry because there IS no compromise. Meaning that the Chantry never steps in to help the mages and the mages bow to their Templar jailers and the people in power do NOTHING to stop these things from happening.

In the end it isn't simply about Meredith and Elthina being incompetent, but the fact that the whole system needs to be shaken to its foundation. Anders knew Meredith would choose annulment, and he knew if there was no action things would just continue on, and get worse. Meredith could annul the circle right out from underneath Elthina, and what then? She had already crushed the mage underground. She squeezed the mages so tight they became desperate and frightened. "Poor Orsino.. so angry.." --- Elthina knew this, and she still did nothing. She let them squabble and fight and she could have mediated. She should have mediated, but she didn't.

Killing Meredith solves no problem except getting rid of a tyrantial and insane figure. The system itself is not changed, and a new Knight Commander would be put in her place. An act of a mage killing a Templar -- a Knight Commander -- does not instill anything but fear and hate for mages by the Templars. Seeing it more as an act of retribution or petty hate by the mage because the Templars are their "keepers." BY blowing up a Chantry and targeting the heart and power of the problem, it sends a message that this system is broken, and the people who are supposed to be helping us would just as soon see us killed or made tranquil without stepping in to change a damn thing.

[Pris81]

Sorry that I'm usually stalking around, reading what people writes here,
staying quiet and nodding, but I suck at ellaborating complex ideas as writing
in my own language, so in English is even more hard for me.

LadyVaJedi wrote...

I also agree that Anders did the French Revolution thing as well. I am thinking that he only planted the bomb. Someone else must have ignited the bomb in the building.

[skipping all the previous debate after reading it and nodding all the time] This is exactly what I thought after the Last Straw ending. ...well, no: after the whole emotional earthquake that followed it, of course. As for details (such as who did exactly detonated the whole thing) I have no theory, but it's the fact that there was a "cold war" state in Kirkwall before it happened what makes the whole action not justificable but at least necessary and understandable... just as the La Bastille thing was.

And mind that I don't like much to mess DA with real history, because if you do this too much, then people starts with the "terrorist" blah blah and, even if I'm used to it, certainly it gets annoying. (btw, whoever owns the "Anders & Hawke corp", can I borrow it? I have an urge to proudly wear it )

Celestina wrote...

I know this has probably been discussed hundreds of times, but who would you pick to play Anders in a live-action film? He's not a perfect fit, but I think Nikolaj Caster-Waldau wouldn't do too shabby. I've seen a lot of people going for violinist David Garrett, but beyond the hair and stubble I dont really see it. I think Nikolaj's nose is more similar to Anders'.

*skips beauty for brevity*

Wow, I had never seen Nikolaj Caster-Waldau before but I stand for him... with Adam Howden's voice.

Modifié par Pris81, 09 novembre 2011 - 07:15 .

[Addai]

nirvana6794 wrote...

There was a really fantastic debate going on last month on page 2125 about what the the void left by the possible destruction of the Chantry's structure. I have something to add to that, and I'm actually a little surprised that no one brought it up back then: wouldn't crippling the overwhelmingly powerful religious/political power of Thedas cause an age of enlightenment? Whenever a major power like the Chantry has fallen a period of scientific and industrial prosperity and innovation has succeeded it.

This is what I think.

I consider the idea of "fall of major power leads to period of innovation" is a misinterpretation of events, basically Enlightenment propaganda that still stubbornly hangs on *insert rant*.  An intellectual flowering comes together because of a fairly chance collusion of technology, politics, and economics.  This was already happening in late medieval Europe as technologies like printing and paper were re-discovered, international banking systems were improving, and a system of universities and monasteries was fostering cooperative intellectual discourse (precisely because a religious authority was sponsoring them).  These things were not the result OR the cause of the Reformation, which I see as essentially a political disengagement of northern Europe from Rome as German and English princes began to believe that they were the new Rome.  This had already started long before with the Carolignians and the Holy Roman Empire, it was the logical next step.

As a comparison- the Islamic Renaissance, which happened much earlier, was also not born out of a "chaos" model.  It came together because there were political and religious powers who promoted it, a body of scholars who were willing to build on classical foundations, the rediscovery of paper money and flourishing of Persian banking systems, trade on the Silk Road, etc.

Chaos does not foster human growth.  When people have to fight to survive, that's all that occupies them.  If Thedas is anything like the real world, Flemeth's "change is coming" means massive suffering and dislocation.  Eventually people work through it to some new consensus, but I'm not on the "change for change's sake" bandwagon.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 novembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[tadonnen]

Jumping in at the end for my very first post to this thread! (I've been lurking for about 100 pages, but it took me awhile to figure out that I had to register the game on the site before I could post here ... because I'm super swift.)

I really don't get the Anders is a terrorist argument at all. He started a war against what is acknowledged in the canon to be a military organisation and the theocracy that empowers it. It's not like he blew up the docks, or the Vicount's Keep or Hightown or something, he chose a perfectly valid and viable first-strike target in military terms.

There were civilian casualties yes, absolutely, and those could have been minimised by choosing a different, albeit less effective target.

I don't think war should be taken lightly, and I think there's plenty of room for debate about whether or not there were diplomatic means still available to the mages in the rest of Thedas (though definitely not Kirkwall itself), but calling him a terrorist is kind of ignoring the entire context of the situation.

I mean, I know the rules of engagement are different in Thedas, but if you're applying real world analogies to this situation, you should do it whole sale, I think.

[Pris81]

tadonnen wrote...

Jumping in at the end for my very first post to this thread! (I've been lurking for about 100 pages, but it took me awhile to figure out that I had to register the game on the site before I could post here ... because I'm super swift.)

I really don't get the Anders is a terrorist argument at all. He started a war against what is acknowledged in the canon to be a military organisation and the theocracy that empowers it. It's not like he blew up the docks, or the Vicount's Keep or Hightown or something, he chose a perfectly valid and viable first-strike target in military terms.

There were civilian casualties yes, absolutely, and those could have been minimised by choosing a different, albeit less effective target.

I don't think war should be taken lightly, and I think there's plenty of room for debate about whether or not there were diplomatic means still available to the mages in the rest of Thedas (though definitely not Kirkwall itself), but calling him a terrorist is kind of ignoring the entire context of the situation.

I mean, I know the rules of engagement are different in Thedas, but if you're applying real world analogies to this situation, you should do it whole sale, I think.

Welcome! It took me 1000 pages to jump in.

In my oppinion, the problem is: many people pays too much attention to the "envelope" of an idea, and too little attention to the "content" of it. I mean, as soon as "revolution", "bomb" and "war" concepts are put together, a trigger is pulled in collective mind that shows up events unfortunately happened last decades. If the same idea had been presented in a different way, people wouldn't have reacted this way. Sad but true.

(Edit)
Maybe it's time for some fluffiness...

By Jess-kane on DeviantArt.

Modifié par Pris81, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:13 .

[Jackalope]

Addai67 wrote...

nirvana6794 wrote...

There was a really fantastic debate going on last month on page 2125 about what the the void left by the possible destruction of the Chantry's structure. I have something to add to that, and I'm actually a little surprised that no one brought it up back then: wouldn't crippling the overwhelmingly powerful religious/political power of Thedas cause an age of enlightenment? Whenever a major power like the Chantry has fallen a period of scientific and industrial prosperity and innovation has succeeded it.

This is what I think.

I consider the idea of "fall of major power leads to period of innovation" is a misinterpretation of events, basically Enlightenment propaganda that still stubbornly hangs on *insert rant*.  An intellectual flowering comes together because of a fairly chance collusion of technology, politics, and economics.  This was already happening in late medieval Europe as technologies like printing and paper were re-discovered, international banking systems were improving, and a system of universities and monasteries was fostering cooperative intellectual discourse (precisely because a religious authority was sponsoring them).  These things were not the result OR the cause of the Reformation, which I see as essentially a political disengagement of northern Europe from Rome as German and English princes began to believe that they were the new Rome.  This had already started long before with the Carolignians and the Holy Roman Empire, it was the logical next step.

As a comparison- the Islamic Renaissance, which happened much earlier, was also not born out of a "chaos" model.  It came together because there were political and religious powers who promoted it, a body of scholars who were willing to build on classical foundations, the rediscovery of paper money and flourishing of Persian banking systems, trade on the Silk Road, etc.

Chaos does not foster human growth.  When people have to fight to survive, that's all that occupies them.  If Thedas is anything like the real world, Flemeth's "change is coming" means massive suffering and dislocation.  Eventually people work through it to some new consensus, but I'm not on the "change for change's sake" bandwagon.

Having just recently started studying that period in history...those are some interesting thoughts.  You're right, people might be too focused on surviving.

I have to wonder if there might be a switch in power with the different groups of Mages.  The Formari in particular aren't a very strong group, but they may end up being the most needed afterwards.

It's kind of hard for me to picture how the Chantry and Thedas will evolve after this.  Comparing the Chantry to real religions can only go so far.  Someone posted a page a long time ago about the consequences of a female-dominated church, but I have no idea where it is.

[Jean]

Anders is a terrorist.

His more sympathetic reasons for doing what he did doesn't make that go away.

[Nyreen]

Whenever the "Is Anders a terrorist?" or "Was Anders right to destroy the Chantry?" debate comes up, I always think of this wall of text I stumbled upon on tumblr.

katiebour.tumblr.com wrote...

Actually, the reason I adore Anders is because of the things he does, not in spite of them.

It took me quite a while to wrap my head around it- on my first playthrough when he blew up the Chantry I ached.  I actually went and cried a little, then went to bed with an ache in my chest.  I couldn’t believe what he’d done, that he’d forced Hawke’s hand like this, and actually asked Hawke to kill him.

But then I thought, and thought, and thought some more.

I thought about the fact that mages have been imprisoned, lobotomized, or killed for one thousand years.

That’s a one with three ****ing zeros.

There are very, very few worldviews in our universe that have subjugated/denigrated/de-humanized/tortured/murdered a specific group of people for ten centuries- not surprisingly, most of them are religions.

But consider this:

Many of the templars in-game that you fight come right out and say “They’re not really people.”

Mages can’t get married.  They can’t have children, or families.  If they have children, the children are taken away and they never see them again.  If they fall in love, that person becomes emotional collateral and you’ll do anything, anything, as long as the templars don’t hurt them.

They’re ripped away from their parents as soon as their magic manifests, or in Anders’ case, thrown away because they are “cursed.”

They are told, over and over again from the time they arrive at the Circle and throughout their lifetime that their very existence is a sin.  They are the next thing to demons.

They are put through a ritual designed to test their willpower and ability when they are little more than children, pushed into the Fade where the magical equivalent of a dinnerbell has been rung, and a demon waiting to possess them.  If they fail they will be killed.  If they take too long they will be killed.  There are men with swords standing by and waiting to kill them.

And all of that at the ripe old age of 17-18. 

They are subject to the whims of their often sadistic jailers, who will beat them, rape them, and try to provoke them into becoming possessed simply to have an excuse to cut them down.

They are rarely allowed outside- no sunshine, no fresh air, no running in the fields or playing ball games.  No frolicking in the snow, or ice skating, or even standing in the rain.  They are kept inside, under guard, where their existence is regulated from sunup to sunset- classes, meals, and sleep, all under the watchful eyes of the guards who are there to kill you if you **** up.  Some of the mages are five or six years old.

They are forced into crowded quarters with 20-30 people (remember all the bunkbeds?) and no privacy.  No doors on the bathrooms, no closed areas for bathing or taking a ****** or a crap, no privacy for dressing or masturbating or sleeping or kissing your girlfriend or boyfriend or sex.  Even the mages are crowded into rooms without doors, where three beds, separated by a wall or a bookshelf mock the convention of privacy.

They are given no autonomy.  As Emile says, he’s never had a drink, never cooked something for himself.  They are treated like overgrown children all their lives and then punished for not being adult enough to resist temptation.  

And if they are brash enough to want more, to hope for more, if, like Anders, they come to the Circle at an age where they remember what it’s like to run free, to have family, friends, crushes on the pretty girl next door, pets, work, freedom, they are branded rebellious troublemakers.  If they run away from their stone prison they are hunted like animals (using what is, hypocritically enough, pretty much blood magic) and dragged back.  If it happens often enough the punishments become severe, like being put in solitary confinement for a year.

Plenty’s been written on the extraordinarily traumatic nature of solitary confinement and the long-term consequences it brings- I won’t reiterate that here.  But it’s torture, pure and simple.

And when a mage can’t take it anymore, he’ll either fall apart internally or externally.  Anders says the most common way for a mage to die is by his own hand, and just imagine that for a moment- Anders has seen mages, multiple, kill themselves- has found their bodies, perhaps, or had friends that simply gave up the fight and didn’t come to breakfast the next morning.  

If they fall apart externally the demons are there, taking them over and puppeting them in a grotesque parody of power before they’re cut down.  Either way they’re dead.

*********

Now put yourself in his shoes.  Remember what you were like at 5, or 7, or 12?  Remember your parents, your family, your world?  Now imagine that it’s been discovered that you have a trait totally out of your control- something dangerous and feared, yes, but no more so than a sword in the hands of a child.

Imagine your parents cursing your name, beating you, locking you up, handing you over to armed strangers.  Imagine your mother tearfully pressing a pillow into your hands and knowing that in all likelihood you will never, ever see any of your family again.

Imagine these strange armed men then drag you across the countryside, screaming, crying, afraid, lonely, and bring you into a prison.  You are thrown into a large room full of strangers, people you’ve been told to fear all your life until you realized you were one of them.  Maybe they make fun of you, the new kid, the one who can’t read, who doesn’t know a fireball from a sleep spell.  Imagine the first time you have to take a **** in front of dozens of strangers.

Imagine being thrown into a boarding school where you never get to go outside, where your days of working in the fields with your parents or playing with your dog or cat or sibling are replaced by lessons, lessons, and more lessons.  Where you are taught to harness the power inside of you and simultaneously condemned for having it in the first place.  Where you are taught to heal, to help others, but never allowed to actually do so.  

Maybe you remember when Aunt Bernice was sick, or the cow sprained a leg, and you wish you could just go home and help, where you could fireball the damn wolf that keeps eating your family’s sheep.  But you can’t go home, ever, and so you’re reduced to setting up sock blinds and performing ridiculous arcane exercises that may or may not have practical value, ever.  You’re cursed, useless, and in the eyes of your jailers, a punishment inflicted upon the world.  You’re less than human and you will be watched, always, in case you slip, and if you do, the templars will be there to cut you down.

**********

This is Anders’ reality.  And when he fights back, does he immediately go blow up the Chantry?  No.  The first thing he does when he stops running is set up a clinic to heal people, to help, and to hide.  He only gets involved in the mage underground because he came to help Karl, his first lover.

Imagine finding the first person you ever cared about and left on friendly terms lobotomized.

So he blows up the Chantry then, right?

No.  He sits down and writes out well-thought out arguments, and goes around begging people to read it.  He tries to send it to Orsino, Meredith, anyone who will listen and make changes.  He tries the peaceful route.

But no one is interested in logic, in how mages, properly trained and cared-for are no more dangerous than a trained soldier.  How they could help.  No one is interested in the fact that mages are the Maker’s children, too, and as his creations don’t deserve to be punished for something completely out of their control.

And this is Anders with Justice riding sidesaddle in his head.  Awakenings Anders would just have cut and run- he has a history of it, and after Dissent he tries to run, before he hurts anyone.

But Justice won’t let him leave, won’t let him abandon his people and the fight they both sacrificed so much for.  You can tell him to leave, and cut him out of your party.  Justice finds a way to make it happen.

At the beginning of Act III, in your house, Anders reveals that the mage cause is all but lost.  Most of the people he worked with have been killed by Meredith.  No one is reading his manifesto- no one is even considering his viewpoint, because the system as it is has endured for a thousand years.

How do you change something a thousand years in the making?

How do you incite your fellow mages to rise up, at last, to see the slow death for what it is, how do you fight for the freedom simply to live as a human being?

You do it by forcing the hand of your common enemy.  Anders didn’t blow up the Chantry to kill the Grand Cleric, or to kill anyone, for that matter.  He did it because it was the one thing that would guarantee that Meredith would order the Rite of Annulment on a Circle full of innocent mages.

He exposed, to all of the mages, once and for all, that their guilt or innocence doesn’t matter.  The Templars have the power of life and death over them, and will exercise it at their whim.  There is no one to protect them, no one to save them when the Rite is ordered.

Meredith would have ordered it anyway (had already sent to Val Royeaux for permission, as is revealed if you go and talk to the Templars in the Gallows at the end of Act III) but that particular execution of the Rite would have been cloaked under the guise of “They’re all blood mages and they deserve it.”    They all would have died without a murmur, the Circle wiped clean, and no one left to argue their guilt or innocence.

Anders’ actions make it crystal-clear that he is the one to blame for the Chantry, the Circle was in no way responsible.  But Meredith takes it out on them anyway, because the people will demand blood, and after all, they’re just mages, it’s not like they’re human, right?  Keep in mind that the Circle is full of innocents, men, women, children, Bethany.

Anders reveals to all of the mages beyond a shadow of a doubt that they exist at the Templar’s sufferance, to be executed regardless of guilt or innocence.  The Circle is a death sentence.  Change and revolution won’t come from the outside- so he creates it on the inside, and pushes the Templars to reveal who they really, truly are- executioners.

There are fourteen Circles of Magi in Thedas, each with dozens, or even hundreds of mages.  For a thousand years, untold generations of mages have come and gone, been imprisoned, tortured, killed.  Unless someone does something, untold future generations will continue in the same vicious cycle.

Anders steps up, with Justice’s help.  He takes on the mantle and burden of being the savior of his people.  The compassionate healer kills a building full of innocent people (and it nearly destroys him to do it) in order to save thousands upon thousands of innocents in the present and future.  He knows that he deserves to die for what he’s done and begs you to put him to the sword.  As long as the revolution occurs, his own life is unimportant.

*****

Anders is an epic figure, a tragic hero, a cursed and blessed man.  He refuses to accept that he, or any mage deserve their treatment, and he fights, unceasingly, for all of them.  He sacrifices his life so that justice may be done.

I know exactly who Anders is, and I love the hell out of him.  Vive la ****ing revolution, baby.  

Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
Because their words had forked no lightning they
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Good men, the last wave by, crying how bright
Their frail deeds might have danced in a green bay,
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

Wild men who caught and sang the sun in flight,
And learn, too late, they grieved it on its way,
Do not go gentle into that good night.

Grave men, near death, who see with blinding sight
Blind eyes could blaze like meteors and be gay, 
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

And you, my father, there on the sad height,
Curse, bless, me now with your fierce tears, I pray.
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.

-Dylan Thomas

—————————

“It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace — but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!”

-Patrick Henry

My response:

[Dave of Canada]

I don't get why everybody is giving reasons for why he's doing good or whatever, he's still a terrorist. Terrorists don't wake up in the morning and say to themselves "I'm doing this for fun", they're fighting a war for their own beliefs and motivations. Whether you agree with them or not doesn't matter, their methods is all that really counts.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 10 novembre 2011 - 01:22 .

[tadonnen]

I guess I just don't buy the chantry as a non-military/government target...they make laws and control trade, at least lyrium, which is one of the most valuable commodities in Thedas. or the templars as non-combatants, they're a military force that rivals the city guard and are the chantry's enforcers. Or are we using another definition, because there isn't one legally speaking...

[Heidenreich]

The only difference between a terrorist and a revolutionary is who is on the winning side of the war. Do not mistake it, Anders is indeed a terrorist. That doesn't mean his actions aren't right. Should the mages win the war, he'll be a revolutionary. If they lose, he'll be a nameless terrorist.

[Jean]

^That's pretty much how the world works.

[Sinaxi]

So I know I haven't been on here in like...freaking months...and I actually haven't played the newest DLC but HEY. I STILL LOVE ANDERS! So I'm sure I will eventually! If anyone remembers me...

But I'm dropping by since I finally decided to post this thing somewhere...it's a small part of something I had originally played around with the idea of making into a larger fanfic but I think this piece by itself is pretty good. I never write fanfics, ever. So this was kind of a first. The only person who ever read it was cme and she liked it...so hey. Whatever. I'll just put it out there.

It's for everyone who wished more had been added to the scene after Hawke's mommy died when Anders came to comfort her. I think it's pretty good actually, considering I never write this stuff. Let me know what you think!

And oh god, sorry if this sounded like a total advertising post. HAHAHA. I just thought some of you would appreciate this!

http://sinaxi.tumblr...ragon-age-2-fan

Modifié par Tidra, 10 novembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Heidenreich wrote...

The only difference between a terrorist and a revolutionary is who is on the winning side of the war. Do not mistake it, Anders is indeed a terrorist. That doesn't mean his actions aren't right. Should the mages win the war, he'll be a revolutionary. If they lose, he'll be a nameless terrorist.

That depends. The mages could distance themselves from him in an effort to appease the people they have to work with. Propaganda is a beautiful thing. If you tell someone often enough that Person A, say, eats babies, when they finally believe it, Person A really does eat babies.

[tadonnen]

So is the definition of terrorist that we're using for the purposes of the thread: "un-uniformed striked against seated government?"

That seems..... very narrow. Even the real world international community makes provisions for guerrilla warfare in totalitarian regimes with gross human rights violations where members of the oppressed class aren't permitted to form an army.

To me, the Qunari's action fit the idea of "terrorist" much more closely than Anders'. Anders wasn't trying to instill fear or striking at non-combatants, he was making a tactical strike against a corrupt, totalitarian regime that he was trying to over-throw. In what... like 1/3 of play-throughs he even had international support -- either from Fereldan trying to free their Circle and getting smacked down, or from Fereldan harbouring the mages he smuggled out of Kirkwall. He might even have had support from Tevinter after DA2, especially if they saw a chance to get ahold of more of the lyrium market.

The Qunari, meanwhile, rampaged through a bunch of civilian quarters, slaughtering everyone, held a bunch of civilians hostage, and beheaded the Vicount because they wanted to show they could -- literally to instill terror.

So far the arguments so far are "Yes, but Anders his sympathetic motivations don't change that." I haven't mentioned anything about whether or not I even agree with his motivations or not. I'm just saying that when a guy goes to start a war, something's going to get blown up, and someone's going to be killed. The head of the government he's trying to overthrow and the seat of her power seems like a strategically sound choice.

There's still plenty of room for debate about whether or not that was the most moral target to pick, but him picking a target in and of itself doesn't make him a terrorist.

Modifié par tadonnen, 10 novembre 2011 - 09:12 .

[Arquen]

I like you tadonnen. I pretty much agree with you. As I stated before people tend to drown in their own bias and ethical dilemma's about WHAT Anders did. Really, that is a seperate issue from whether or not his actions were the acts of a terrorist. I also agree with you that if you *do* go real world analogy you go all the way. Not simply pulling out the convenient analogies while ignoring the inconvenient ones.

As for katiebour's post on Tumblr -- ahh katiebour -- I her for reasons, but that really is a well thought out post, and a very good summation of why people actually LIKE Anders. Nobody is going to say "murdering so-and-so was the morally right thing to do," but that isn't the point. The point is Anders is starting a war, and there isn't anything he hasn't really tried before that has worked to help the mages in Kirkwall or anywhere else in his experience either. Justice is the x-factor here, and there is no real world equivalent to what Justice makes or does not make Anders do. Personally I think Justice is part of Anders's psyche, and Anders is not Justice's puppet or completely under Justice's control when blowing up the Chantry.

I can't hate Anders for what he did. I can't say it was the moral highground either. I can say that I don't feel what he did was unnecessary or wrong given the circumstances. In much the same way I can't say killing Meredith was "wrong" because she was a victim of lyrium poisoning and madness, and there should have been a "moral highground" way to deal with that. Whether or not you agree with Anders comes down to an ethical dilemma and whether or not you believe that his actions are justified in the context of Thedas.

As for the Arishok -- I definitely agree that was a true act of terrorism. They came to eradicate, instill fear, and exterminate the "dathrasi" vermin that "plague" the city. "Innocent" people whose only crime was being nobles and douches no doubt. Also a military leader who they executed publicly and attempted to claim the position of. Stealing power, as well as destroying the power they felt was insufficient. Anders's actions are very different and his motivations as well.

[tadonnen]

 Heh, thanks =).  And just to make sure I don't get a reputation for being all dire and contrary, have some fan art!



The best pony! Found during random Tumblr trolling a few weeks ago, if anyone knows the original artist, let me know so I can credit properly

Modifié par tadonnen, 10 novembre 2011 - 11:45 .