57019 réponses à ce sujet

[Sialater]

It's not necessarily abusive. You just disagree with something with him (mages/abomination status) strongly, but you still love him. You don't HAVE to be an abusive jackass to him to rival him.

ToP:


By: JC-Blade

Modifié par Sialater, 21 novembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[esper]

ladyshamen wrote...

esper..NOOO some people DO have this type of coloration, and it looks good, especially if it's natural. However, a lot of characters in DA2 look like they have bad color jobs. Like I said, it's just one of those 'things' for me. And I apologize if I insulted. I try hard not to do that.
As far as Rivelmance goes, I was afraid it would feel just that way, abusive.

I know that you didn't mean to offen. I am just in a confrontative mood, I guess. Also wanted to point out that Anders' colour is natural enough.

If you ever go rivalmance, don't go agressive that was what I did. Rivalmance does have some good line. And manifesto reading.  Which was very hot. But generelly I ended up feeling that my Hawke was mentally abusing Anders and beatin him down. It was either. 'What you did with Justice was wrong and then keep pointing that out' or it is 'the templars are right.'
It properly didn't help that my head canon for that Hawke was that she was a bitter and petty person who was just rebounding on Anders because neither Fenris or Isabella worked out. (She handed Isabella out to the Arishok, just because Isabella had let her down.). In the end she did love Anders in her own very possessive way, but.... I was an experience.

It was also the only time where I tried to go templar and ended up having to kill both Merrill and Anders (couldn't make him side with the templars in the end). Even though I felt that Hawke had deserved it with the way she acted, I reloaded and sided with the mages.  

Perhaps a diplomatic Hawke who wants to 'save him from himself' would feel better, but since I play mage I couldn't find a good reason why such a Hawke would rival him.

[ladyofdragons]

esper wrote...

Perhaps a diplomatic Hawke who wants to 'save him from himself' would feel better, but since I play mage I couldn't find a good reason why such a Hawke would rival him.

My third playthough will be this, with a Warrior!Hawke. She'll probably be well-meaning but over-protective and pro-circle, mainly because of Bethany.  I plan to let Anders change her mind through the romance, but might side with Templars first just to see it...

Does Anders still hit on a Diplo!Hawke when rivaled? Or does he only initiate while in friendship? I'm thinking that letting it develop organically might be interesting, since my Mage!hawke was trying to get into his pants from day 1.

Arquen wrote...

LOL, it's true... meaty topics after 2,000+ pages are hard to come by. Especially these days.

I'm with Sia -- no reason to respond to random opinions unless there is a legitimate questioning somewhere in there or the person actually WANTS feedback to.. something.

I think it's rather sad that people hate Anders so much. I have this love/dislike relationship with his character, but he's so challenging as a character that I can't hate him. I did murder knife him once, FOR SCIENCE!, but I took no pleasure in it. It was the most broken and horribly tragic Hawke I have, actually. In another PT I let him die defending the mages because I went Templar, and I just didn't want to murder knife him and I wasn't about to make him side with the Templars. I just.. I couldn't do that to him. So, I let him die the way he chose to. The way he wanted to, and again, I took no pleasure in it.

The tragic nature of Anders, and his inner conflict, and just his whole bucket of crazy and saracastic and the unfathomable puzzle he is and becomes is just what draws me to him. I can't NOT love him. I liked him in Awakenings, but I didn't love him. In Dragon Age 2 and seeing that character growth and development and the whole spiral and crazy train with that jaw dropping finish. I just.. I love/dislike him. There are times when I want to *facepalm* at him. Times when I want to go "Anders.. wait..just wait one damn minute!" and times when I just want to be there for him, even if he is trying to push you away. He brings out such a spectacle of emotion with his progression. Even if you agree or don't agree with him... I just don't see how people can HATE on him so much, but I've all but given up on people in general, LOL.

I haven't romanced him. Not once in 8 PTs, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate his character.

I think most of the hate comes from shallow or narrow preceptions of the character. Homophobes and fan girls who didn't believe him when he said he'd hurt them seem to be most common. That's not counting anyone unable tolook past the terrorist thing.

I murdered knifed him once... I spared him in my first playthrough, but really wanted to punch him in the face first... I reloaded and killed him just to see it, but for some reason it didn't meet the expectation I had. I was expecting a knife across the throat... and blood... and I don't know, a different kind of drama.  The knife in the back was just.... ugh. Such a quiet death, it didn't feel suitable to the crime, didn't sate my anger at all, and I just felt terrible.  I decided not to save, it just didn't fit.

I'm playing a Aggro!Rogue!Hawke now... She really should kill him... I haven't decided yet if I can...

Modifié par ladyofdragons, 21 novembre 2011 - 10:51 .

[esper]

@Ladyofdragons. The diplo-autoflirt in the first conversation gives friendship points. Unless you are pro-blood magic (which would be really weird if you are pro circle) I don't advise it if you want him pushed fast into rivalry. Also if you play a female Hawke in his mid.ways question belief don't pick the diplo option that says 'perhaps' you have a point'. It is the only one that won't cause him to kiss your Hawke.
Besides that you can't be as diplomatic as you want - I think. Escpially the 'I won't let you embrace a mad cause that will get you hanged' line works well for the romance you described.

[MICHELLE7]

ames4u wrote...

If you go the path of rivalmance, you'll see just how far Ander's slips. Justice actually squares off with you for a moment when you try to convince Anders to rethink his decision and Ander's reveals that he's had more and more 'blank spot's in his memory. Which means that Justice is exerting more control over him.  I did not like where Bioware took anders' route. Naturally there was no way for sunshine and rainbows between Mages and Templars but it was the sheer lack of control over the end that bugged the hell out of me.

I didn't see that as Justice at all...I took it to be Vengeance.

To me (and this is just my way of seeing it) if you supported Anders (pro-mage) he wasn't as frustrated and the spirit of Vengeance seemed to be pushed to the background. Anders represented justice for mages and Hawke was the Champion of that cause. I just kinda saw that in the little things like him talking about her being their (the mages) leader and her being an inspiration to them all. I almost wonder if Justice(who did not approve of her in the beginning) might have approved of her at the end. I keep thinking back to Awakenings when Justice was possessing Kristoff's body and what he said about envying what Kristoff and Aura felt for each other. Kinda feel like they dropped the ball on what they could have done with that and a lot of the other stuff from Awakenings.

I think without Hawkes support in advancing the cause of mages Anders frustration leads to Vengeance gaining ground over both Anders and Justice. If I recall correctly Justice seemed to have a sense of honor to him...he did things because they were right...not for a personal need for revenge. I mean at the end when Justice/Vengeance snaps at Hawke and says Anders doesn't need her it just doesn't sound like the Justice I remember...from Awakenings or even from the fade in DA2 (as long as you didn't make the deal with sloth). I think sometimes we can forget that Justice is losing himself to this merger as much as Anders is.

I even kind of wonder if you don't convince Anders that he was wrong when you rivalmance him (and get the kiss scene...which was not worth it for me...I'd rather ride off into the sunset with him than him commit suicide) if there is anything left of him at the end. He made the comment (I think during On the Loose and I am paraphrasing here) that when a demon takes over that he is just mimicking who that person used to be and that the person is no longer there at all. Brings new meaning to when he manifests and says "I am Anders!" It's just the first time I played the rivalmance path I kinda freaked out at how different his behaviour was...I mean the Justice is exalted stuff...he really sounded out of his mind. All just my opinion...everyone probably sees it a little differently.

I will say this though...I don't think that there has ever been a Bioware character that has made as big of an impact (yeah I know that sounds like a pun). Choosing Morrigan's ritual could change the path of DAO but you had the choice of saying no if you wanted to and could stop whatever she was planning...you couldn't do that with Anders...there was no choice...you could only approve of his actions or disapprove after the fact...he was central to the plot...not just an LI for you to romance. I know some people hated that but I actually think it puts him more out in front as a main character than Hawke...but what can I say...I'm biased.

[slyborg]

 My quick Anders pic. The first one I've done digitally. Now some nasty drawings!!! 

Modifié par slyborg, 22 novembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[esper]

@Michelle, I kinda disagree with the way you phrase it. You make it see like there are two spirit in his head. But Justice was always Vengencase also in Awakening, In fact ironcally enough I think that the moment Anders blew up the church is one of the only moments where it is acting as spirit of Justice. Also Justice never did things because they were right. He did things because someelse had been wronged.

The comment you are refering to is from a bitter pill which always confuses me because Hadrianna is clearly not posessed. If she was the demon would have done something when she lost her staff. I think it has more to do with the fact that Anders really, really hates blood magic.

I also think that something of the person remains. If you take Evelina she in some twisted possessive way still cares about her adoptive children, plus she is pissessed at Hawke. That is not coming from the demon that is emotion coming from Evelina. The demon twists them and make them grotesque and I don't know what else.

[MICHELLE7]

esper wrote...

@Michelle, I kinda disagree with the way you phrase it. You make it see like there are two spirit in his head. But Justice was always Vengencase also in Awakening, In fact ironcally enough I think that the moment Anders blew up the church is one of the only moments where it is acting as spirit of Justice. Also Justice never did things because they were right. He did things because someelse had been wronged.

The comment you are refering to is from a bitter pill which always confuses me because Hadrianna is clearly not posessed. If she was the demon would have done something when she lost her staff. I think it has more to do with the fact that Anders really, really hates blood magic.

I also think that something of the person remains. If you take Evelina she in some twisted possessive way still cares about her adoptive children, plus she is pissessed at Hawke. That is not coming from the demon that is emotion coming from Evelina. The demon twists them and make them grotesque and I don't know what else.

It's all right ...we don't have to agree...like I said it's just the way I see it...I mean according to Anders his own hate of the templars was what was creating Vengeance (his way of explaining it)...I don't think without Ander's hate Vengeance would even exist. So in my way of seeing it there were two...the spirit Justice and the demon Vengeance. I guess each of us see it differently...the problem is that the game just really isn't clear about a lot of things...maybe if they had given it 6 more months or something to iron out all the details it would be clear.

The Bitter Pill...can't always rememeber where I've heard all the comments(lol) but that goes back to the inconsistencies again...he hates blood magic...he could become a blood mage in Awakenings and would even acknowledge that he was one.  And in DA2 he all of a sudden rails against blood magic especially at Merrill but if Hawke becomes a blood mage he says nothing. It's like Awakenings didn't even happen...one of my saves I imported was of one that had Anders as a blood mage...it was just weird that all that was ignored.

On the other comment I guess it just comes down to whether Anders is right about demon possession or not...but if Wynne was right it wouldn't matter if something of the person did remain...if you remove the spirit(or demon) the person still would never be the same. I think Marethari said something along the same lines. Kinda also wonder if the war between the mages and templars comes to an end and Anders is still among the living if Justice will remain with him...I mean if the cause of mages is at an end what reason does he have to remain with Anders...why not just pick some other host and another cause. He left Kristoff at will...why not Anders? But we'll probably never know what happens to him...at least not apart from fanfic.

Actually I'm a little afraid for Bioware to pick his character back up again for anything after the ending of DA2...right now I've got Hawke and Anders riding off into the sunset together...what ever becomes of them is left to my own imagination...to see Anders pop back up in DA3 without Hawke would mean they weren't together...and even if it was explained I don't think I'd like to have him there without my Hawke. Sorta felt the same way with Awakenings and the Warden without Allistair. Well back to Skyrim...(lol) it's like the neverending game.

[Sialater]

Justice didn't leave Kristoff at will. Kristoff canonically gets his head removed. Justice kinda had to move out at that point.

[MICHELLE7]

Sialater wrote...

Justice didn't leave Kristoff at will. Kristoff canonically gets his head removed. Justice kinda had to move out at that point.

Wasn't aware there was a canon...I think Nathanial asked him if he could just leave Kristoff and Justice had said that he thought could but was no longer sure he wanted to. So whether it was by beheading or not, Justice seemed to believe he could leave at will.

[Sialater]

MICHELLE7 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Justice didn't leave Kristoff at will. Kristoff canonically gets his head removed. Justice kinda had to move out at that point.

Wasn't aware there was a canon...I think Nathanial asked him if he could just leave Kristoff and Justice had said that he thought could but was no longer sure he wanted to. So whether it was by beheading or not, Justice seemed to believe he could leave at will.

It was an endcard and I think it was the only one that was the same no matter what you did.  Kristoff always lost his head at Vigil's Keep.

[esper]

Sialater wrote...

MICHELLE7 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Justice didn't leave Kristoff at will. Kristoff canonically gets his head removed. Justice kinda had to move out at that point.

Wasn't aware there was a canon...I think Nathanial asked him if he could just leave Kristoff and Justice had said that he thought could but was no longer sure he wanted to. So whether it was by beheading or not, Justice seemed to believe he could leave at will.

It was an endcard and I think it was the only one that was the same no matter what you did.  Kristoff always lost his head at Vigil's Keep.

Expect it is not canon that Justice is in Vigil Keep. In other versions 'Kristoff''s crumbles on his wife doorstep and haunts blackmarsh, I think.

[esper]

MICHELLE7 wrote...

esper wrote...

@Michelle, I kinda disagree with the way you phrase it. You make it see like there are two spirit in his head. But Justice was always Vengencase also in Awakening, In fact ironcally enough I think that the moment Anders blew up the church is one of the only moments where it is acting as spirit of Justice. Also Justice never did things because they were right. He did things because someelse had been wronged.

The comment you are refering to is from a bitter pill which always confuses me because Hadrianna is clearly not posessed. If she was the demon would have done something when she lost her staff. I think it has more to do with the fact that Anders really, really hates blood magic.

I also think that something of the person remains. If you take Evelina she in some twisted possessive way still cares about her adoptive children, plus she is pissessed at Hawke. That is not coming from the demon that is emotion coming from Evelina. The demon twists them and make them grotesque and I don't know what else.

It's all right ...we don't have to agree...like I said it's just the way I see it...I mean according to Anders his own hate of the templars was what was creating Vengeance (his way of explaining it)...I don't think without Ander's hate Vengeance would even exist. So in my way of seeing it there were two...the spirit Justice and the demon Vengeance. I guess each of us see it differently...the problem is that the game just really isn't clear about a lot of things...maybe if they had given it 6 more months or something to iron out all the details it would be clear.

The Bitter Pill...can't always rememeber where I've heard all the comments(lol) but that goes back to the inconsistencies again...he hates blood magic...he could become a blood mage in Awakenings and would even acknowledge that he was one.  And in DA2 he all of a sudden rails against blood magic especially at Merrill but if Hawke becomes a blood mage he says nothing. It's like Awakenings didn't even happen...one of my saves I imported was of one that had Anders as a blood mage...it was just weird that all that was ignored.

On the other comment I guess it just comes down to whether Anders is right about demon possession or not...but if Wynne was right it wouldn't matter if something of the person did remain...if you remove the spirit(or demon) the person still would never be the same. I think Marethari said something along the same lines. Kinda also wonder if the war between the mages and templars comes to an end and Anders is still among the living if Justice will remain with him...I mean if the cause of mages is at an end what reason does he have to remain with Anders...why not just pick some other host and another cause. He left Kristoff at will...why not Anders? But we'll probably never know what happens to him...at least not apart from fanfic.

Actually I'm a little afraid for Bioware to pick his character back up again for anything after the ending of DA2...right now I've got Hawke and Anders riding off into the sunset together...what ever becomes of them is left to my own imagination...to see Anders pop back up in DA3 without Hawke would mean they weren't together...and even if it was explained I don't think I'd like to have him there without my Hawke. Sorta felt the same way with Awakenings and the Warden without Allistair. Well back to Skyrim...(lol) it's like the neverending game.

I hate the term demon on Vengance because even when Justice is Vengance, he still does not think like the demons does. Spirits thinks in ideas/Ideal. Justice/Vengance still does that.

Demons seems to think in egoism and chaos. As in they only think what benefits them and a lot of them seems to enjoy havoc. (Enjoyment = benefit)

But Justice/Vengance still focus on the cause of mages. 

As for the specalization thing. Anders was always agaionst blood magic. The one time I taught it to him, I remember him sounding bitter about in the convo you talk about.   


As for the possession thing. I do think the human soul is  damaged. (Not wynne perhaps, but then again we never knew Wynne unpossessed. Also I think that the spirit got the bad deal there).

[maxernst]

esper wrote...

I also think that something of the person remains. If you take Evelina she in some twisted possessive way still cares about her adoptive children, plus she is pissessed at Hawke. That is not coming from the demon that is emotion coming from Evelina. The demon twists them and make them grotesque and I don't know what else.


I hate the term demon on Vengance because even when Justice is Vengance, he still does not think like the demons does. Spirits thinks in ideas/Ideal. Justice/Vengance still does that.

Demons seems to think in egoism and chaos. As in they only think what benefits them and a lot of them seems to enjoy havoc. (Enjoyment = benefit)

But Justice/Vengance still focus on the cause of mages.

As for the specalization thing. Anders was always agaionst blood magic. The one time I taught it to him, I remember him sounding bitter about in the convo you talk about.


As for the possession thing. I do think the human soul is damaged. (Not wynne perhaps, but then again we never knew Wynne unpossessed. Also I think that the spirit got the bad deal there).

I don't know if we have enough information about spirits and demons to discriminate cofnidently, but my feeling is the best possible source for this info is pre-Janders Justice. Justince says that "only a demon would poses a live person" (Wynne is not alive when posessed/revived), and that "demons are spirits corrupted by human desires"--and that does seem to fit. I think that the apparent difference between Vengeance and other demons is that the desires that corrupted him don't happen to be purely selfish ones. Agree completely that something remains of the original person, even after posession. When I first played DA:O, I thought that the fact that Teagan survives even if you abandon the village was plot-armor, but in retrospect I think Connor doesn't want his uncle killed.

Modifié par maxernst, 22 novembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[esper]

maxernst wrote...

esper wrote...

I also think that something of the person remains. If you take Evelina she in some twisted possessive way still cares about her adoptive children, plus she is pissessed at Hawke. That is not coming from the demon that is emotion coming from Evelina. The demon twists them and make them grotesque and I don't know what else.


I hate the term demon on Vengance because even when Justice is Vengance, he still does not think like the demons does. Spirits thinks in ideas/Ideal. Justice/Vengance still does that.

Demons seems to think in egoism and chaos. As in they only think what benefits them and a lot of them seems to enjoy havoc. (Enjoyment = benefit)

But Justice/Vengance still focus on the cause of mages.

As for the specalization thing. Anders was always agaionst blood magic. The one time I taught it to him, I remember him sounding bitter about in the convo you talk about.


As for the possession thing. I do think the human soul is damaged. (Not wynne perhaps, but then again we never knew Wynne unpossessed. Also I think that the spirit got the bad deal there).

I don't know if we have enough information about spirits and demons to discriminate cofnidently, but my feeling is the best possible source for this info is pre-Janders Justice. Justince says that "only a demon would poses a live person" (Wynne is not alive when posessed/revived), and that "demons are spirits corrupted by human desires"--and that does seem to fit. I think that the apparent difference between Vengeance and other demons is that the desires that corrupted him don't happen to be purely selfish ones. Agree completely that something remains of the original person, even after posession. When I first played DA:O, I thought that the fact that Teagan survives even if you abandon the village was plot-armor, but in retrospect I think Connor doesn't want his uncle killed.

Someone who actually wants to discuss (I should really finsih up my chapter of the fanfiction. It is nearly done.)

I agree we don't know. But it is in the way they act. We have only met two spirits, Valor and Justice, but both those spirit seemed to... Place their perception of their ideal above individuality and their ideal was the way they think, also they name themself after the ideal. Of course it would be nice to see more spirit, escpially some like Compassion and Hope which I think is less violent than those we have seen.

Demons on the other hand. It seemed that they most more uses their emotion to prey on humans than to actually think they are the emotion. The stronger a demon, the lesser they seem to be their emotion and just use it. Also demons seems to choose names. Yes, alot of the names fit their emotion, but what kind of desire is Xebenkeck and what kind of Pride is Wryme? Also let's not forget the Pride demon 'Mouse' who took the role of a rather pathectic student who utterly failed and pretented to be working with for Rage Demon off al things. If it was thinking in poorly pride surely it would have seen itself as so awesome that a meekly student could be tricked without such methods.

Also just as I would never ask a Templar what a mage is, I would never ask Justice what a demon is. As it is enough for Justice that most demons act unjust and thus most be stopped! In awakening I noticed that Justice said that some spirits looks into the dreams of human and takes their belief of the Maker from there their while demons just don't care. I could easily see line about spirit as the Maker's first children spreading in the Fade (since the Andrestian faith is widespread so a lot of dreams would contain it). A faith spirit leaning towards zealotry would love it and I am convinced that the other spirits would love it as well as it would enforce them in the fact that they are good and the others are evil-

Conclusion: I think that Spirits are being that strives to be an ideal and thus actively strives to be singleminded. Wheres Demons seems to be being who strives to further themself and the stronger they become the less single minded and the more predotores they are. In short demons strives to be individuals. I think that the different ways of thinking is so radical... different that I doubt that they are the same race just corrupted/uncorropted. I think that the demons and spirits are the Fade version of Human, Elves, Dwarves and Kossith. Two different races that have a completely different mindset and I doubt that they can be corrupted into each other.
...
This was a wall of a text sorry.

[ladyshamen]

Mostly just dropping by to read. This is a great discussion! I really don't think I could add to it. Everyone is bringing up good points and theories.
Sialater.. I'll try not to obtain 'jackass' status!

[ladyshamen]

OK, no one has posted here in 3 days. That's just odd.

[Nyreen]

*delurks*



From Bashaire on deviantart

Modifié par Celestina, 25 novembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[slyborg]

It's a holiday weekend for us US folks. After gorging our faces we go out and buy stuff we can't afford!

Might brave the crowds to find a cheap power brick for my Xbox so I can play DA2.

[Pris81]

Celestina wrote...

*delurks*



From Bashaire on deviantart

This is my favourite fanart ever (got it on favs in DeviantArt of course). When you can draw characters by someone else with your own and unique style, you get the Fan Artist (with the capital letters) status.

Well, if style is from someone else too but it's well approached (á la YamiSnuffles) then you get the status too.

Right, this is quiet and some of us are basically stalking. The debate in this page... I'm reading it and nodding and thinking "wow, that's interesting, I wish I could say something clever"... but since I can't, and least of all in English, I think I'll come back soon with some shameless self-promotion art.

Edit for more DeviantArt stuff:

Not that I've read so many fanfics, but so far this is my very, very favourite: http://massivelyatta...nrise-266962898 by massivelyattacked. Three chapters of angst, love and humanity after this one.

Modifié par Pris81, 25 novembre 2011 - 07:26 .

[Nyreen]

Also, I must say I just love love love Anders' concept art. The definition of the "sexy, tortured look". I wish there had been more of this for Origins - all we got were old/grumpy Alistair and chest-bearing, feather-wearing Zevran pieces.




I also prefer this hair color over the reddish-blond.

Modifié par Celestina, 25 novembre 2011 - 11:43 .

[ladyshamen]

The concept art is great! I finished a PT with friendmanced Anders. Need to start one and TRY the rivalmance. It's so hard to disagree with that face!

[Dunizel]

Delurking just to add the link to that wonderful piece of Art.: http://baishare.devi...oices-270218283
I wanted to see the gallery of the artist but the name was mispelled so I spent a bit of time looking for it  

Also, Anders on my screens has always reddish-brownish hair like in that concept art...never quite blond to be honest. I don't know, might be the lightning xD

[ladyshamen]

I don't think this pic has been posted ( 2100+ pages a LOT to look at) It made me ROFL.



by Irma Ahmed

[Nyreen]

ladyshamen wrote...

I don't think this pic has been posted ( 2100+ pages a LOT to look at) It made me ROFL.

*snip*

by Irma Ahmed

I wish she would make more Anders fan art. I'm really getting tired of seeing Fenris comics popping up on my tumblr dash. I guess now I sort of know what it's like to be a Zevran fangirl.

Modifié par Celestina, 27 novembre 2011 - 02:57 .