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[SurelyForth]

esper wrote...

BevH wrote...

But if he was truly pansexual, wouldn't the conversation be the same for both male and female? I know that our characters aren't supposed to know what would happen if they were the other gender. But since I, as the player, do know both conversations exist, I tend to think that Anders is bisexual. I doesn't really bother me either way, but I tend to be a bit anal about details.

I don't want to get into a who does Anders loves most discussing, but as a female Hawke player I got the expression that Anders has a much larger protect instinct when it comes to femHawke. I think that perhaps that female rouge who may have sold him out to Rylock in DA:A, sort of made him think that women gets hurt worse?

I believe Anders' romance is one that is more cognizant of the Man/Woman Behind the Curtain than most. While other bi romances get pretty generic pronoun swaps, his does not. I just think that BW didn't think his F!Hawke romance would go over well with male players, so they took out the parts where he's vocally conflicted/vocally takes away the opportunity to pursue the romance in Act 1 and replaced them with a discussion about his sexuality, which they felt needed to be clarified in light of Awakening. I believe that Gaider, when confirming that Anders is canonically pansexual, also indicates that it was purposely left open to interpretation within private games. So if you play F!Hawke and are uncomfortable with the fact that he's had sex with men, he won't tell you and you can just pretend, although it doesn't change the fact that it's canon. Or that you're erasing his sexuality. 

TOP? Wow. I haven't done this in ages. 

Umm...


by SweetCandyRain

Modifié par SurelyForth, 28 novembre 2011 - 11:17 .

[slyborg]

esper wrote...

Actually I think Fenris is more a broke and fix it type, because... he actually can be fixed. Anders makes it very clear that he is unfixable and fits more into the 'you can't save a person who don't want to be saved' category. I must admit that is what I like about Anders romance. You either accept him for the mess he is or you end up heart broken.
That said Hawke is Anders pillar of strenght, but in a non-fixing way. Hawke simply is there to love Anders (untill the day they dies;-)) and keep him in in touch with his humanity.
Fenris on the other hand gets 'fixed' and learns to move on in his romance.

The Hawke in my FF is willing to go to the extremes to try to fix (help) him, the only reason she agrees to stay with him after he blows up the Chantry. But she puts almost all the the blame on Justice. She is on a "Get Justice Out of Anders or Bust" mission.

[BevH]

SurelyForth wrote...

I believe Anders' romance is one that is more cognizant of the Man/Woman Behind the Curtain than most. While other bi romances get pretty generic pronoun swaps, his does not. I just think that BW didn't think his F!Hawke romance would go over well with male players, so they took out the parts where he's vocally conflicted/vocally takes away the opportunity to pursue the romance in Act 1 and replaced them with a discussion about his sexuality, which they felt needed to be clarified in light of Awakening. I believe that Gaider, when confirming that Anders is canonically pansexual, also indicates that it was purposely left open to interpretation within private games. So if you play F!Hawke and are uncomfortable with the fact that he's had sex with men, he won't tell you and you can just pretend, although it doesn't change the fact that it's canon. Or that you're erasing his sexuality. 

TOP? Wow. I haven't done this in ages. 

Umm...


by SweetCandyRain

(Picture left in because I really like it! )

Thanks for the explanation! That actually makes a lot of sense.

Edited to add: I still think Anders should have had that conversation with f!Hawke... guess I'll just have to "pretend" - lol

Modifié par BevH, 29 novembre 2011 - 04:58 .

[ladyofdragons]

slyborg wrote...

esper wrote...

Actually I think Fenris is more a broke and fix it type, because... he actually can be fixed. Anders makes it very clear that he is unfixable and fits more into the 'you can't save a person who don't want to be saved' category. I must admit that is what I like about Anders romance. You either accept him for the mess he is or you end up heart broken.
That said Hawke is Anders pillar of strenght, but in a non-fixing way. Hawke simply is there to love Anders (untill the day they dies;-)) and keep him in in touch with his humanity.
Fenris on the other hand gets 'fixed' and learns to move on in his romance.

The Hawke in my FF is willing to go to the extremes to try to fix (help) him, the only reason she agrees to stay with him after he blows up the Chantry. But she puts almost all the the blame on Justice. She is on a "Get Justice Out of Anders or Bust" mission.

Interesting! I love how there can different takes on this stuff. :3 My mage!Hawke approached it in a different way.  She holds some reverence for the concept of a beneficial spirit's aid (being the Maker's first born), and also feels that separating the two at this point would do more harm than good (a mage who suffers possession once is more likely to fall to it again), so her goal is to stabilize the union and prevent further degradation in the direction of Vengeance. Ideally, she'd like to see something akin to what Wynne has with her spirit of Faith, where Justice is closer to his original ideal, but she knows that's not likely to come anywhere close to happening unless (miracles of miracles) the issue with mages gets resolved. One of the reasons she takes up the mage revolution mantle wholeheartedly. She also feels it's the most constructive path left for Anders at this point. He has to face his demons, direct his anger in more constructive ways, and she feels her presence and support can aid him in doing so.
So it's true Anders is not someone to be "fixed". I suppose it's more like "let's to damage control" instead. XD 

[esper]

slyborg wrote...

esper wrote...

Actually I think Fenris is more a broke and fix it type, because... he actually can be fixed. Anders makes it very clear that he is unfixable and fits more into the 'you can't save a person who don't want to be saved' category. I must admit that is what I like about Anders romance. You either accept him for the mess he is or you end up heart broken.
That said Hawke is Anders pillar of strenght, but in a non-fixing way. Hawke simply is there to love Anders (untill the day they dies;-)) and keep him in in touch with his humanity.
Fenris on the other hand gets 'fixed' and learns to move on in his romance.

The Hawke in my FF is willing to go to the extremes to try to fix (help) him, the only reason she agrees to stay with him after he blows up the Chantry. But she puts almost all the the blame on Justice. She is on a "Get Justice Out of Anders or Bust" mission.

I am not saying that Anders isn't cathering to the fix-it type. Espically if you also like a good tragedegy.  if that is what you like Anders is the perfect fix it type because we as a player after x-times playthrough is fully knowing that he is unsaveable and then can enjoy watching our Hawke try to no avail. 

Also I was talking about my preferences in a romance not Hawkes. I don't like save them romances or fix it. I can easily see why Hawkes might want to save him and blame it all on Justice.
My canon Hawke does have a (huge) blind spot where Justice is concerned, he is 'just' a curious trait in Anders which she has never known Anders without.

[Tyrium]

I just wanted to point out here that Gaider might interpret him as canonically pansexual, but he also went to great lengths to point out it was deliberately left open for players to interpret as they saw it, though that was his interpretation. Also, it's not pretending the information isn't there if said information cannot be triggered. Pretending is avoiding a conversation option to avoid information "becoming real" - eg playing a male and deliberately taking the aggressive so you can pretend he's straight. if that information cannot be triggered in the f!romance, believeing it does not apply there is an interpretation. 
 
I have nothing against m/m (my m!Hawke is with Fenris), but I prefer to interpret Anders as straight in the F!Hawke run for a few reasons: that's the Awkakening import, and it fits my interpretation of the character better, and to me, it explains the difference in the tone of that post killing Karl romantic dialogue. His reactions to male and female are very different, and it makes sense to me that losing a lover or losing a friend would cause those different reactions. Of course, that's just my view. Each to his own!

Modifié par Tyrium, 29 novembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[Frishmet]

I find it interesting that most people interpret his being more blatant about his sexual past about Karl with M!Hawke as trying to protect F!Hawke, or somehow not being honest with her. My own impression was that he was simply using the information for the purposes of finding out M!Hawkes reaction or to be more direct about the fact that he would be open to something with another man.  In my own head cannon it probably came up later anyway in discussions with F!Hawke but was just not as needed for clarity with her at the beginning.

[esper]

Frishmet wrote...

I find it interesting that most people interpret his being more blatant about his sexual past about Karl with M!Hawke as trying to protect F!Hawke, or somehow not being honest with her. My own impression was that he was simply using the information for the purposes of finding out M!Hawkes reaction or to be more direct about the fact that he would be open to something with another man.  In my own head cannon it probably came up later anyway in discussions with F!Hawke but was just not as needed for clarity with her at the beginning.

In my head canon it jusn't come up mostely  because there is no reason to discuss it, besides with Isabella there Anders can't really say something that shock Hawke. But I don't think that Anders withholding the information about Karl is what making people say that he is trying to protect fHawke. It is the amount of 'i'll break your heart, that femHawke gets incomperison with mHawke.

[BevH]

Frishmet wrote...

I find it interesting that most people interpret his being more blatant about his sexual past about Karl with M!Hawke as trying to protect F!Hawke, or somehow not being honest with her. My own impression was that he was simply using the information for the purposes of finding out M!Hawkes reaction or to be more direct about the fact that he would be open to something with another man.  In my own head cannon it probably came up later anyway in discussions with F!Hawke but was just not as needed for clarity with her at the beginning.

For me, it's not about Anders trying to protect f!Hawke or even being honest with her. It's more about the details, the inconsistencies if you will. You are probably correct with your assumption that Anders would want to test the waters with m!Hawke to see if he's receptive to the idea of a relationship with another man, whereas, f!Hawke wouldn't need that. But maybe it is about honesty, although, truthfully, who wants to hear about the past conquests of a love interest? It just bothers me somewhat, as the player, knowing how both conversations go. In the end, romance with Anders is the same, whether male or female. It's just the starting point that's troublesome for me. Hawke doesn't seem to have a problem with it - lol!

[SurelyForth]

Here's the thing though, is Anders being more protective of F!Hawke or just more explicit about the prospects of being with him, only in his melodramatic way? I mean, one of the biggest complaints that people (mostly female players) have against the Alistair romance is the fact that he can dump the Warden, seemingly out of the blue. I'd say that what Anders does in Act 3, both the emotional blackmailing AND the bombing are way worse. While he can't exactly spoil us for the outcome, he can convey that "Despite my wibbly lips and sad brown eyes, and the way I just tripped over myself to compliment you and the fact that I can't stop staring ever and sometimes I might smile to myself because LOVE, I killed some templars and Wardens to get here and I can't always control Justice and I'm going to do something horrible. Horrible horrible."

I think it's the "i'll only break your heart" line that really gets people, and the fact of the matter is that him not saying it to M!Hawke during the game doesn't mean he doesn't say it to M!Hawke ever, because otherwise it really makes no sense the way things are left off in Act 1 (and he indicates in Act 3 that he's said the same sorts of "I'll hurt you, I'm a monster" stuff to all Hawkes that romance him). I think it's simply something that gets stressed with F!Hawke because of Hepler's goals with his romance (to make it a Buffy/Angel type doomed love affair) and because of the assumptions BW made as to what would work with female players (being flatout warned that his is not a happy ending sort of affair) and what would work with male players (a slightly less doomed approach that doesn't change anything in the scheme of things). 

Does that make sense? Any? At all? 

[esper]

Well, you can't say that you wasn't warned in act 3, that is true and I don't mind the diffference. I also understand why Helper would write it different.
There is, however, two questions: Why Helper wrote it and why Anders feels that way. (Now I am making this confusing). Basically, Anders doesn't want to make it a Buffy/angel romance, Helper does. So Anders reasons as a character to be more protective/warning towards FemHawke, can not really be explained in game by it is this type of romance... And I am really feeling the limit my english right now.

[Heidenreich]

At the end of the day, it boils down to this in Anders head:

He is physically attracted to M!Hawke.

He is mentally attracted to F!Hawke.

Thus, he out right hits on M!Hawke and is all "hey bebe I like dudes do u mind cuz ur so hot"

You also have to remember, that if you do it right and don't hit on him but instead are diplo in your choices/pro mage he does the same a bit with F!Hawke. Except then mentally goes "OMG No! She's a beautiful person and spirit and I'll just RUIN it" and warns her away.

THATS how he sees it. He doesn't necessarily believe M!Hawke is the type to fall head over heals and that harmless flirting is harmless and sexy.

But, typically females DO fall head over heals. Typically. Thus he's all "hey baby.. wait no, no I'm not a nice man and I'll hurt you. Please, stop tempting me."

It's as if, even with Karl, he was never head-over-heals.. and has never BEEN head-over-heals with a man. Mind you he did care about him, but by the time he might have realized his feelings Karl would have been gone, and it was years and years later before they saw each other again in Kirkwall. Thus, different type of caring at that point.

So for Anders, Man = sexy. Woman = emotions. Even if he's never had any particular emotions for any particular person before Hawke.

So in his mind he's all "better warn her away now before she gets attached."

I... don't think I'm explaining it right. Eh.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 30 novembre 2011 - 07:13 .

[SurelyForth]

Or it could simply be this:

There is so much focus on building his sexual and romantic identity with Male Hawke, and it's only Male Hawke/Anders that gets this because Merrill and Fenris are blank slates and Isabela is openly bi all over the place (ie Origins), that him also positing that while it's awesome that M!Hawke seems amenable to being in a relationship with Anders despite him being a dude, they can't actually be together because of *heartbreak* would seem a little...bleargh. I mean, the conversations Anders has with F!Hawke are about Justice and why he merged and his beliefs and it works that he would get away from himself but not so much that he can't see things and state things clearly at that moment. With M!Hawke there is literally no graceful way to get to the same "I'll only break your heart" point in the conversation that they have without it seeming sort of...crass? You don't encourage someone to come out to you and then immediately kibosh the relationship.

It doesn't mean that it never happens. Again, it seems like it must because Anders claims as much later and the real romance trigger is in Act 2. It's just...there are other things going on with M!Hawke that aren't an issue with F!Hawke and that gets priority in Act 1.

[BevH]

OK, I'm now seeing things a bit differently thanks to the wonderful discussion. I can see now why Anders, even being pansexual, would need to approach male/female Hawke differently. Even though Anders is gender neutral when it comes to considering a relationship, he wouldn't know if m!Hawke would be open to it, and, therefore, would approach him differently than f!Hawke. So I agree with your conclusions, Surely.

[Nyreen]

Tyrium wrote...

I just wanted to point out here that Gaider might interpret him as canonically pansexual, but he also went to great lengths to point out it was deliberately left open for players to interpret as they saw it, though that was his interpretation. Also, it's not pretending the information isn't there if said information cannot be triggered. Pretending is avoiding a conversation option to avoid information "becoming real" - eg playing a male and deliberately taking the aggressive so you can pretend he's straight. if that information cannot be triggered in the f!romance, believeing it does not apply there is an interpretation. 
 

Agreed. It's not pretending if Gaider outright said we could interpret it as we like.

Personally I prefer F!Hawke/Anders for reasons beyond the obvious one, (my sexual preference). As much as I wish Anders had discussed his relationship with Karl, if that's to be taken as canon for both Hawke's genders, I do enjoy this bit of dialogue reserved for female Hawke.

"A year ago, maybe we could've had something. But I'm not that man anymore. I'll break your heart, and that might kill me as surely as the Templars."

He says this while sitting on a crate, much like the random crate that appears for him in Act III. I thought it was nice foreshadowing, as Hawke may very well kill him for what he does. Fortunately for him, that wasn't the case in my story.

Modifié par Celestina, 30 novembre 2011 - 09:20 .

[esper]

@Celstina, you are right that is one wonderfull foreshawdowing/parrellel in the plot.
Now I feel like playing da2 again, just to romance Anders and ensure him that all is going to be all right, Hawke (well my Hawkes) would never kill him.
Unfortunately all my Hawkes are currently in act 1....

[Heidenreich]

SurelyForth wrote...

Or it could simply be this:

There is so much focus on building his sexual and romantic identity with Male Hawke, and it's only Male Hawke/Anders that gets this because Merrill and Fenris are blank slates and Isabela is openly bi all over the place (ie Origins), that him also positing that while it's awesome that M!Hawke seems amenable to being in a relationship with Anders despite him being a dude, they can't actually be together because of *heartbreak* would seem a little...bleargh. I mean, the conversations Anders has with F!Hawke are about Justice and why he merged and his beliefs and it works that he would get away from himself but not so much that he can't see things and state things clearly at that moment. With M!Hawke there is literally no graceful way to get to the same "I'll only break your heart" point in the conversation that they have without it seeming sort of...crass? You don't encourage someone to come out to you and then immediately kibosh the relationship.

It doesn't mean that it never happens. Again, it seems like it must because Anders claims as much later and the real romance trigger is in Act 2. It's just...there are other things going on with M!Hawke that aren't an issue with F!Hawke and that gets priority in Act 1.

This is why I have decided to just let surely explain things.

Yep.

[nirvana6794]

My two coppers: I agree with Surely and Heidenreich. I've beaten the game with F!Hawke and M!Hawke, both with different personalities, classes, and family situations, and other flings before Anders. The romance does play out the same way no matter what (not taking into account friendship or rivalry), but the male and female romances have completely different tones. BevH totally hit it on the head when she said that regardless of being pansexual, it's clear that Anders approaches both relationships differently. He would have to, considering that men and women are vastly different creatures in every aspect, but emotionally in particular.

[ladyshamen]

You are all making such good points! I agree that relationships differ, sometimes a lot, depending on gender. Anders is a wonderfully complicated character! Kudos to the writers and to Adam Howden for making him so believable!

[nirvana6794]

He's incredibly human, and I think that's what's so appealing about the character, actually.  Say what you will about conviction being sexy, or being a tragedy-porn addict, or even having a thing for scruffy guys--that's all very important, true--but Hepler and Gaider, the character designers, the animators, and Adam went absolutely above and beyond in creating Anders.

Gaider created an enjoyable character, and Hepler twisted him 180 degrees.  And when I say "twisted," I mean it in the best way possible.  He's still funny, but it's drier and more sarcastic.  He still cares about people in need (the mages, residents of Darktown, etc), and sacrifices everything he has to help them.  He's hopelessly devoted to The Cause, and regardless of what happens he's devoted to Hawke in one way or another.  He's petty and jealous and moody, but he's always absolutely certain about what he sets his mind to.  He has horrible mood swings and Justice/Vengeance is eating him alive, but he always tries to do right by the people he's crusading for.

The designers didn't make him stereotypically handsome, despite his being a principle love interest and integral to the story.  He's a good-looking Everyman in that aspect, someone you'd expect to come across in real life.  Yes, he has pretty, emotive eyes, and even though we think he's perfect as-is there are people who think he's unattractive now, and they mod him to oblivion and back, changing everything from his hair to his chin.  He goes from vain about his appearence to not caring about it at all, and it shows.  He's thinner and has a different body model than the other human males in the game, he looks older, he's drawn and tired-looking and haggard.  His hair is a mess.  His robes are falling apart, and he's holding them together with bandages.

And the animators.  My god, his expressions are so incredibly real it's amazing.  The graphics are stylized realism, but Anders is so expressive it's almost uncanny valley territory.  

And do I realy even need to explain how amazing a job Adam did?  I've been reading through the thread from the beginning for a while now, and I've seen a lot of uncertainty about the change in Anders' VA prior and immediately after the game's release.  I've seen people say that his voice gets a little lost without subtitles, because it's unremarkable compared to the other characters's.  I can see why that's been said, but Adam's performance outshines everyone else's by a mile, hands-down.  

Seriously, forget all the drama and the angst and the whole "moody possessed rebel mage persona";  Anders is so much more human than any other character I've ever come across in a game, because if you take away all the epic flaws he has, he seems like a person you'd would order your coffee from.  He's realistic.  And that's why I love him.  

TLDR: Anders is awesome in every concievable way and I needed to gush about it to someone who isn't my cat.  That is all.

[Fox In The Box]

nirvana6794 wrote...

He goes from vain about his appearence to not caring about it at all, and it shows.  He's thinner and has a different body model than the other human males in the game, he looks older, he's drawn and tired-looking and haggard.  His hair is a mess.  His robes are falling apart, and he's holding them together with bandages.

He does make sure to keep those eyebrows remarkably sculpted, though.

[nirvana6794]

Fox In The Box wrote...
He does make sure to keep those eyebrows remarkably sculpted, though.

His eyebrows are perfect because messy eyebrows are an injustice to good fashion sense unattractive.

[ladyshamen]

nirvana...100% agreement! And, I'm glad I'm not the only one who talks to their cat!

[Jean]

nirvana6794 wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...
He does make sure to keep those eyebrows remarkably sculpted, though.

His eyebrows are perfect because messy eyebrows are an injustice to good fashion sense unattractive.

Oh and Anders is really awesome.

[Nyreen]

nirvana6794 wrote...
And the animators.  My god, his expressions are so incredibly real it's amazing.  The graphics are stylized realism, but Anders is so expressive it's almost uncanny valley territory.  

Seriously, forget all the drama and the angst and the whole "moody possessed rebel mage persona";  Anders is so much more human than any other character I've ever come across in a game, because if you take away all the epic flaws he has, he seems like a person you'd would order your coffee from.  He's realistic.  And that's why I love him.  

OH GOD yes - when he's telling Meredith and Orsino off in Act III - his face - his face - the flicker of emotions across it was flawless. In Origins I was put-off by the way in which characters shouted or spoke with emphasis their faces remained unnaturally calm and composed. But Anders - you could just see how angry and passionate he was in that moment. It gave me goosebumps.

I also agree that Anders is the most human. Inside and out, he is the most complex and believable character I've ever met in a game. Learning to accept his flaws and embrace him for what he is now, not the man I knew in Amaranthine, was such a meaningful and moving experience. It wasn't easy. I still miss the lighthearted, snarky flirt - but I can say that I've learned to love the new Anders just as much, if not more.



One of my all-time favorite portraits of him...because the image above is... *shudder*

Modifié par Celestina, 01 décembre 2011 - 11:28 .