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[nirvana6794]

Pris81 wrote...

In the psychological disorder topic going on a couple of pages before... just a quick ramble: 1) Dyslexia and other language disorders are more likely to be a factor, not a consequence, for later emotional issues, specially during childhood; anyway, the "spelling" mention by Hawke looks more to me like something which usually happens to people with anxiety-related issues when expressing theirselves about things they care of a lot, such as Anders writing his manifesto. 2) I personally don't believe much in the way psychiatrist make their diagnostics, because they try to fit patients into one or several of their patrons of disorder, which happen to be still very few -not like in other kinds of medicine, but already in Awakening I'm close to think of BPD because of many behaviours that are very common among people who suffer from it -self-destruction, hyperactivity, very pronounced mood changes and a continuous tendency to anger and even violence against some things mixed with an opposite affective and tender ways towards others.

In my opinion, I imagine the spelling and syntactical errors in the manifesto to caused by what you mentioned: someone so intensely passionate about a topic has difficulty properly expressing their thoughts about it due to a highly emotional response to the topic (possibly a manic episode if we're talking about Anders in terms of bipolar).  

Just to clarify:  By BPD, do you mean bipolar or borderline personality disorder (which is abbreviated in the DSM as "BPD")?  Most people tend to use the shorthand incorrectly and I just want to be sure, because if we're discussing bipolar!Anders and borderline!Anders we're dealing with two wildly different animals.

I admit that I tend to see it from both sides, because Hepler herself has admitted to drawing inspiration from bipolar disorder when she was writing Anders, and that certainly shows, but bipolar is a mood disorder and can occur in someone with a personality disorder, too.  I have BPD and I can identify some of the symptoms in Anders because I have them, too.  Personality disorders come partially from genetics (as in the liklihood of developing one) and are usually aggrivated by a trauma or lifestyle, and while certain aspects of a personality disorder can be identified in children onset is typically during late adolescence and early adulthood (16-24).  

I can provide more information on BPD if anyone's interested in examining Anders throught that lens.

Edit: Talk about a wall o' text.  And ToP.  Have a pic.



http://25.media.tumb...gd40oo1_500.jpg

Modifié par nirvana6794, 22 décembre 2011 - 11:06 .

[FiliusMartis]

I was hoping I could drop in here and ask a quick question about Anders' romance. I asked in the tech support forum, but nobody seems sure whether what happened is by design or if I hit a bug, and it was suggested that someone in here would know.

On my most recent playthrough, I rivalmanced Anders and sided with the Templars. I did all his quests, and had rivalry completely maxed out. Before the battle, he said he'd always love Hawke and they kissed. However, during the epilogue, Varric did not say that Anders remained with the Champion. My question to you lovely people is whether Varric's epilogue just had a slight hiccup or if I messed up the romance.

Otherwise, sorry to just like.. wander into your conversation. I really appreciate anything you guys can tell me though. Thank you

[nirvana6794]

I'm pretty sure you didn't mess up or encounter a hiccup, because the rivalmance is patched now. It's rather seriously implied that Anders either leaves Hawke or dies/commits suicide if you side with the templars in his rivalmance. That kiss is their last one, or so it seems.

I'm pretty sure you didn't mess up or encounter a hiccup.

Edit: I'm anything but an expert, though, so take my word with a grain of salt.

Modifié par nirvana6794, 23 décembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[Deviant Ingredient]

Which is why I personally can never side with the Templars, well one of the reasons.

[ladyshamen]

I think this is a very interesting topic. ( Anders mental health) I saw all kinds of things going on with Anders. My son, who is now in his early teens, was diagnosed with Early Onset Bipolar Disorder at age 7. (asbergers syndrome has since been added ) To help me do my best for him, I took the same courses that Foster Parents who take in mentally ill children do. 100 hours of psychology and more. Anders was very real to me. Of course I realize that a lot of his problems came from Justice, but he's still the most interesting character to me. Kudos to Ms. Hepler and Mr. Howden for their fantastic work. I love the fact that people can discuss very real issues here freely. And some people want to say that gaming kills brain cells!

[nirvana6794]

ladyshamen wrote...

I think this is a very interesting topic. ( Anders mental health) I saw all kinds of things going on with Anders. My son, who is now in his early teens, was diagnosed with Early Onset Bipolar Disorder at age 7. (asbergers syndrome has since been added ) To help me do my best for him, I took the same courses that Foster Parents who take in mentally ill children do. 100 hours of psychology and more. Anders was very real to me. Of course I realize that a lot of his problems came from Justice, but he's still the most interesting character to me. Kudos to Ms. Hepler and Mr. Howden for their fantastic work. I love the fact that people can discuss very real issues here freely. And some people want to say that gaming kills brain cells!

I wish I could like posts here the way I can on Facebook.  Seriously.

[Deviant Ingredient]

My family is rife with disorders, my mom is bipolar and both me and my paternal grandmother have asbergers so I noticed a lot of familiar patterns in the game. And I agree on the liking thing nirvana6794. Lord knows I'm on here more than I am on Facebook.

[ladyshamen]

I agree with the two of you! I look at my Facebook page about , oh, 3 times a week. I'm HERE every day. More than once. And thank you nirvana! I say we form a support group. Hugs everyone!

And since I try to start my day with a smile:


Done by Sandara

Modifié par ladyshamen, 23 décembre 2011 - 12:29 .

[Fox In The Box]

@FiliusMartis - You're free to wander in here any time you like! It's pretty much what nirvana said. Anders says, among other things, that he can't risk losing himself to Justice again and that he can't live past this. So that pretty much puts the nail in the coffin.

Also, ladyshamen, that's my absolute favorite piece of Anders-fanart out there. It makes me feel a little happy and a little sad at the same time.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 23 décembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[FiliusMartis]

Well, I suppose part of it was denial because my Hawke really believed he was trying to help Anders. For what it's worth, I had huge problems getting Act III Questioning Beliefs to start as well, so I'm not writing anything off as completely patched. At any rate. I still think it's odd. Anders does thank Hawke for his life and mention that he will try not to make such a mess of it. An even odder point is that, upon reading comments elsewhere, I reloaded the pre-battle safe and killed Anders. In THAT epilogue Varric did mention he was with Hawke, so I wonder if the "player kills Anders" tag is occasionally misfiring? Or Anders is.. haunting me. Needs more testing, I think.

I'm somewhat personally familiar with bipolar disorder, though I'm no expert. Still, I wondered that about Anders as well. What I'm particularly curious about is whether or not it can be completely chalked up to Justice or if there are signs in Awakening, which I haven't played very much because my imports always fail and make me sad.

I think the theme of mental illness is done very well throughout the game. First you have Kelder, and most players are happily willing to write him off and kill him without a second thought, though it's pretty clear that he's ill. It gets a little more personal with Quentin, but the player has no choice on how to act-- though few would spare their mothers killer, I presume. Anders is where it really hits home. If you didn't realize something was wrong before, you realize it in Act III, and you have to deal with it on a very personal level.

When I first played Act III, I was furious with Anders, but I knew, deep down, it wasn't really, entirely his fault. Killing him isn't justice (no pun intended), but he can't think it's okay to go around killing innocents or civilians. I felt really limited at this point in the game, because there really wasn't an option for what I wanted, but that's how games are sometimes, of course. I keep asking myself what should be done in these situations; they are more real than many would like to realize. Maybe there isn't a "right" answer, but perhaps there is a "best" answer-- even a "really good" answer. However, I think the fact that this game raises the question is really saying something to its credit.

Okay! I shall stop rambling now and go sob into a pile of bad fanfiction or something.

[Fox In The Box]

I'm not surprised! Rumors have it that the endgame "epilogue" is a little glitched - you're not the first one who's found himself (herself?) stuck with Zombie!Anders.

As far as helping Anders goes... in my opinion, no matter Hawke's good intentions, there really is no helping him. Half of him belongs to his cause and he is never going to change, even if he had wanted to. When he merged with Justice, he stripped himself of that choice. You can either accept what he is and what he has done - or not, and in that case, killing him is the most merciful thing you can do.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 23 décembre 2011 - 02:47 .

[TEWR]

ladyshamen wrote...

And since I try to start my day with a smile:


Done by Sandara

That gives me a distinct Calvin and Hobbes feeling.

[ladyshamen]

Calvin and Hobbes, love it! I've gotten some odd things to happen at the ending. I think we just have to live with it.
FiliusMartis, I also wanted options they didn't include. I often found myself talking to my game. I'm not fond of what they do, but I always wanted to take Anders to Tevinter to see if he could be separated from Justice. Then try to patch him up the best I can. Even tho I've heard you get some good dialog, I've never been able to Rivelmance him. I just want to hug him and protect him.

[FiliusMartis]

I think it's possible to accept what Anders is and has done and not entirely agree with it. I even think you can agree with Anders' cause of "free the mages" and recognize that the way he's going about it may not be the most successful. Believe me, I want to hug and protect him too, but I think what he most needs protecting from is Justice, maybe even himself.

The rivalmance does reveal some interesting things. For one, Justice takes over during one of the final quests and tells Hawke to get lost, more or less. At that point, Anders reveals that he's having blackouts where Justice takes over. Justice is now possessing Anders-- they are not completely unified. Before the final battle, he reveals that Justice, now Vengeance has become a demon and it was he who came up with the idea to blow up the Chantry. If I recall, Justice isn't fond of a friendmancing, pro-mage, super supportive Hawke, so his possessing Anders will become problematic regardless of the path, most likely.

I can see that death might be merciful, but neither I nor my Hawke is ready to give up. Like ladyshamen, I wonder if there is a way to free Anders from Justice. Marethari, Flemeth, Tevinter... so many ancient and unknown magics that remain unexplored. I also don't think Anders is entirely as peaceful with the idea of dying as he makes out. I think inside, deep down, there is a piece of Anders screaming that this isn't right. Pulling him up, making him face it, making him fight, and helping him make things a little better... maybe these will give him some peace so that when the time comes, if there is no other way, he'll be at rest.

[ladyshamen]

That's it! I'm going to have to Rivelmance the man to get this dialog! I hate missing out on things!

Off to make a new Hawke!

[Pris81]

nirvana6794 wrote...

In my opinion, I imagine the spelling and syntactical errors in the manifesto to caused by what you mentioned: someone so intensely passionate about a topic has difficulty properly expressing their thoughts about it due to a highly emotional response to the topic (possibly a manic episode if we're talking about Anders in terms of bipolar).  

Just to clarify:  By BPD, do you mean bipolar or borderline personality disorder (which is abbreviated in the DSM as "BPD")?  Most people tend to use the shorthand incorrectly and I just want to be sure, because if we're discussing bipolar!Anders and borderline!Anders we're dealing with two wildly different animals.

I admit that I tend to see it from both sides, because Hepler herself has admitted to drawing inspiration from
bipolar disorder when she was writing Anders, and that certainly shows, but bipolar is a mood disorder and can occur in someone with a personality disorder, too.  I have BPD and I can identify some of the symptoms in Anders because I have them, too.  Personality disorders come partially from genetics (as in the liklihood of developing one) and are usually aggrivated by a trauma or lifestyle, and while certain aspects of a personality disorder can be identified in children onset is typically during late adolescence and early adulthood (16-24).  

I can provide more information on BPD if anyone's interested in examining Anders throught that lens.

*skips cool pic for brevity*

Oops, I didn't notice the initials were the same. Yes, I meant Borderline personality. I've also thought of bipolar Anders but, as you say, more because what Jennifer Hepler said than for being an accurate cannon.
Even if this is risky to say (not to mention that you have far more info than me -I know about borderline disorder from brother, good friend and people I've met, but not for myself), genetics is more often the cause of bipolar, and childhood-teenage trauma is more often the cause of borderline.

@Nirvana, Deviant, Ladyshamen: I don't want to go much off-topic, even if I already did, but it's encouraging that you people make these posts. Myself I have a share of psychological stuff, both from family and me, old brother has Borderline disorder, middle brother has schyzo-affective and both my mother and I have anxiety-depression so well, beat it (j/k [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]) ... I mean, it's amazing how a fictional story can help people to fight our worst nightmare.

@Deviant: glad to know there's more people who, no matter how hard we try, we simply can't RP a templar-siding Hawke, even without rival-romancing Anders. We are probably missing some science. And I've RP'ed the most despicable wardens in DA:O... but seriously, no way.

Modifié par Pris81, 23 décembre 2011 - 06:01 .

[Dunizel]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I think it's possible to accept what Anders is and has done and not entirely agree with it. I even think you can agree with Anders' cause of "free the mages" and recognize that the way he's going about it may not be the most successful. Believe me, I want to hug and protect him too, but I think what he most needs protecting from is Justice, maybe even himself.

This so much. Now and then in the thread started the debate on the rivalmance, how you are some kind of douche always shouting at him for everything he has done and refusing his very being. 
I remember me and maybe two or three others trying to explain why it wasn't like this, not necessarily. Then I kinda gave up. 
For me the rivalmance was a really great playthrough. My Hawke was always kind to Anders. The game doesn't truly recognize it in dialogues? Well, I can perfectly assume that when they talked sometimes he might have snapped out  for some choices. This doesn't mean my Hawke is trying to destroy him or treating him so badly all the time. And moreover, it was nice to discover the manifesto dialogue or the Vengeance one before the end.
I always just played Hawke as if he/she was worried for Anders' well being, since probably he doesn't even recognize Justice/Vengeance influence. In the rival path I just tried to make him more self-aware to prevent him losing himself.
Did it work? Probably not, probably it was all vain. Did it make it worse? I don't know, my Hawke thought he/she wanted to preserve the Anders he/she saw sometimes.
And sided with the mages in the end, yes.
 
From a meta-gaming point of view, in Act 1 I just sent Grace and Feynriel to the Circle (which wasn't completely a bad choice anyway) and gave some warning about Justice when the subject showed up. It is extremely easy to max his rivalry. In act 2 and 3 I could save every mage I wanted and be always supportive and kind to him if I wanted to.

Modifié par Dunizel, 23 décembre 2011 - 08:05 .

[ladyshamen]

Dunizel, I'm glad you posted. I have never Rivalmanced Anders before, and was wondering if it could be done with some semblance of humanity. Also, I like to side with the mages. Will go play soon!

Pris81, and everyone else. I think the more people like us, that are willing to speak up, and not act like mental illness is something to be ashamed of, the more people will understand. Most mental illnesses are just that, an illness. It's not due to some personal weakness. If a game can raise public awareness, that's just flippin' awesome!

[FiliusMartis]

You really don't have to be cruel to rivalmance Anders. You can think mages deserve freedom and recognize that the merge with Justice was not the best plan, that gets you rivalry points. Letting Idunna live gets you rivalry, even though some would see it as merciful, but she does go to the templars. You can be super pro-mage to the point that you're okay with blood magic. Agreeing with Merrill from time to time, specifically during her quests, gets you rivalry and isn't cruel at all.
Once you nudge yourself onto the rivalry path, it will get easier. For instance, when you stop Anders killing the mage in Dissent, you get a pretty big chunk for whatever path you're currently on.

Although I respect wanting to side with the mages, I think siding with the templars is something worth doing at least once. That being said, you can rivalmance and side with the mages. Things like telling Marethari you'll make Feynrial tranquil and such can get you a chunk of rivalry without you having to actually follow through. I also think a Hawke who supports mages but does so with a bit more cunning is a viable way to play it.

[Jean]

You have to dance around a bit to get rivalry points and still be pro-mage,

[Fox In The Box]

FiliusMartis wrote...

I think it's possible to accept what Anders is and has done and not entirely agree with it. I even think you can agree with Anders' cause of "free the mages" and recognize that the way he's going about it may not be the most successful. Believe me, I want to hug and protect him too, but I think what he most needs protecting from is Justice, maybe even himself.

The rivalmance does reveal some interesting things. For one, Justice takes over during one of the final quests and tells Hawke to get lost, more or less. At that point, Anders reveals that he's having blackouts where Justice takes over. Justice is now possessing Anders-- they are not completely unified. Before the final battle, he reveals that Justice, now Vengeance has become a demon and it was he who came up with the idea to blow up the Chantry. If I recall, Justice isn't fond of a friendmancing, pro-mage, super supportive Hawke, so his possessing Anders will become problematic regardless of the path, most likely.

I can see that death might be merciful, but neither I nor my Hawke is ready to give up. Like ladyshamen, I wonder if there is a way to free Anders from Justice. Marethari, Flemeth, Tevinter... so many ancient and unknown magics that remain unexplored. I also don't think Anders is entirely as peaceful with the idea of dying as he makes out. I think inside, deep down, there is a piece of Anders screaming that this isn't right. Pulling him up, making him face it, making him fight, and helping him make things a little better... maybe these will give him some peace so that when the time comes, if there is no other way, he'll be at rest.

I'm sort of drunk, so this mightn't be entirely coherent, but I'll try!

Of course you don't have to agree with him. The game never recognizes the differences between disagreeing with his merging with Justice and his fighting for mage rights - which seems to be a general concern when it comes to the friend/rivalry system, come to think. At least one player had the issue of disagreeing with Fenris' stance on magic while not being able to agree with his killing of Hadriana, for instance.


The thing is though, he is not the same person on the friendship path as he is on the rivalry path. On the friendship path, you support him in every way and he merges with Justice without many issues. If you ask him about it, he - Anders - is the one responsible for the bombing of the Chantry, and not Justice. He doesn't suffer the same issues as he does on the rialry path. In short, no blackouts, no spirits acting without his notice. He and Justice are one.

If rumors are to be believed, separating him and Justice is possible, though at the end of a rivalry path as opposed to a friend path. It would occur in the same way like the separation of Connor and his demon. Though I'm not sure it would be possible even still. Anders seems to view what happened to Justice as his fault - if Justice was unwilling to separate from him, would Anders still want him to, even if such a process required the destruction of his friend? Or would Anders insist on himself dying, so that his friend would be spared, and hopefully return to his old self?

[Deviant Ingredient]

@Pris81: Yeah, I thought about siding with the Templars just for completion purposes but I always friendmance Anders and couldn't bear the thought of having to kill him. Plus I don't want a perky Sebastian breathing down my neck as we slaughter the mages. I also tend to play as a mage, rogue sometimes, warrior never.

[Nyreen]

[mrs_anomaly]

I'm going to apologize right now, since I haven't read the 2000+ posts in this thread. I know that's a veritable sin- but I've read a few recent pages at the tail end, so hopefully you all won't hate me for that lol .
I absolutely adore Anders- I don't know if I can even rivalmance him knowing that he explains how Justice is taking him over and he's having blackouts, ie, is more conflicted than ever about his possession. I wouldn't want to be the cause of that.
I don't even know if I have it in me to be pro templar even once..but I'm considering it.
What I am wondering is if anyone finds Justice to be attractive in Anders? For example, when you chose the sarcastic dialogue option in bedroom love scene and joke about having a threesome and he gets offended. I thought hey- its kind of ultra kinky actually this romancing a man who is possessed because lets face it, Justice has a front seat view of everything lol.
So while I kind of moon away thinking "if..I could..just seperate Anders from his demon ahhh!"..Part of me wishes that Justice could just get on the love boat with Anders. Yeah. That would be interesting.

[madzilla84]

Personally I'm not a fan of that particular scenario, though I know it's pretty popular - I've seen a lot of fics about it and so on. But the way I see it ... well, Threeparts said it better than I could in this very thread. 

Threeparts wrote...

I'm one of those killjoys that would love to see Vengeance gone from Anders - whether purified, banished back to the Fade, or just outright killed, so suggesting that it might not be possible is heartbreaking for me.
I don't like the demon, I didn't have any sort of affection for it when it was still Justice, and I hate what it's doing to Anders. I know Anders is responsible for twisting it as well, but Vengeance is fighting back against its host, forcing him into doing things that he wouldn't otherwise choose to do and controlling his body (not just on rivalry, but during Dissent as well), so I know where my sympathies lay.

That's why it kind of freaks me out a little when people say they find glowy Anders sexy, or want to seduce Justice - in those glowy moments, Vengeance is taking over Anders, controlling him, and using him as its puppet. Anders is helpless, in a body that he can't control, and he can't give consent to anything Vengeance or another party might make him do. That is, in my mind, scary as hell. It's cool that others like it and I'm not judging, but it just hits my DNW button.

I did like Justice in Awakening - apart from that, I agree entirely with the above.