57019 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyshamen]

Thank you to everyone for commenting on the Rival path. I'm going to try it out, for science/ LOL. However, I too find the whole Justice thing creepy at times. I loved Anders in Awakenings, and wish he could get back to being his old wise-cracking self!

celestina- cute pic!

Edit: ToP



Done by Arkadyrose

Modifié par ladyshamen, 24 décembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[Fox In The Box]

*throws glitter* Merry Yule-times to you all! May your packages be hard and plentiful, all puns intended.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 24 décembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[nirvana6794]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Well, I suppose part of it was denial because my Hawke really believed he was trying to help Anders. For what it's worth, I had huge problems getting Act III Questioning Beliefs to start as well, so I'm not writing anything off as completely patched. At any rate. I still think it's odd. Anders does thank Hawke for his life and mention that he will try not to make such a mess of it. An even odder point is that, upon reading comments elsewhere, I reloaded the pre-battle safe and killed Anders. In THAT epilogue Varric did mention he was with Hawke, so I wonder if the "player kills Anders" tag is occasionally misfiring? Or Anders is.. haunting me. Needs more testing, I think.

I'm somewhat personally familiar with bipolar disorder, though I'm no expert. Still, I wondered that about Anders as well. What I'm particularly curious about is whether or not it can be completely chalked up to Justice or if there are signs in Awakening, which I haven't played very much because my imports always fail and make me sad.

I think the theme of mental illness is done very well throughout the game. First you have Kelder, and most players are happily willing to write him off and kill him without a second thought, though it's pretty clear that he's ill. It gets a little more personal with Quentin, but the player has no choice on how to act-- though few would spare their mothers killer, I presume. Anders is where it really hits home. If you didn't realize something was wrong before, you realize it in Act III, and you have to deal with it on a very personal level.

When I first played Act III, I was furious with Anders, but I knew, deep down, it wasn't really, entirely his fault. Killing him isn't justice (no pun intended), but he can't think it's okay to go around killing innocents or civilians. I felt really limited at this point in the game, because there really wasn't an option for what I wanted, but that's how games are sometimes, of course. I keep asking myself what should be done in these situations; they are more real than many would like to realize. Maybe there isn't a "right" answer, but perhaps there is a "best" answer-- even a "really good" answer. However, I think the fact that this game raises the question is really saying something to its credit.

Okay! I shall stop rambling now and go sob into a pile of bad fanfiction or something.

Late response is late.  Sorry 'bout that.

Again, I'm no expert, but I do know the rivalmance is patched and is now markedly different from the friendmance.  The epilogue, however, is another story.  Maybe it's totally intentional that if you kill him he sticks around for a while, and it'll be explained eventually.

I think I've mentioned before that I'm firmly in the camp that there were signs of Anders being a little off even in Awakening, and that's because I recognize some of my BPD symptoms in DAA and almost all of them in DA2.  I don't really see Justice as being entirely responsible for the changes Anders goes through, because I see him as more of an aggrivation to a preexisting condition.  The transition from DAA!Anders to DA2!Anders is too polarizing for me to entirely blame the merge with Justice--I can't rationalize it any other way, and none of my Hawke's can, either.  

I wasn't all that surprised by Act III, to be honest, given that I was romancing him and the first time you speak to him in the estate he's a little delusional ("Draw the curtains!  Do you know what will happen if the templars see tow apostates talking to one another?"); he's convinced he's being watched and gets angry with Merrill for not sensing this imminent danger he's so certain is present.  I can't really see those deulsions or mood swings as consequences of Justice, honestly, because I don't see how being possessed would make him delusional and paranoid and swinging between "deep melancholy and manic determination" like the Codex says.  All three of those happen no matter what Act III Codex you get for him (if he kills Ella, if he doesn't kill Ella, and whether or not he's romanced).  

Pris81 wrote...

Oops, I didn't notice the initials were the same. Yes, I meant Borderline personality. I've also thought of bipolar Anders but, as you say, more because what Jennifer Hepler said than for being an accurate cannon. 
Even if this is risky to say (not to mention that you have far more info than me -I know about borderline disorder from brother, good friend and people I've met, but not for myself), genetics is more often the cause of bipolar, and childhood-teenage trauma is more often the cause of borderline.

I suppose it's likely that he is bipolar, too, because we're told that he has manic episodes (other disorders and mental illnesses can have manic symptoms, but full-blown mania is unique to bipolar disorder).  Predisposition to developing a personality disorder can be genetic, but the actual development of one is largely contingent on your environment growing up; I don't meet any of the environmental criteria for having BPD, but have a severe case of it because mental illness runs in my family.  I know it's usually the other way around, but BPD has a stronger genetic component than other personality disorders because it's more closely related to how your brain regulates your emotional responses to external and internal stimuli, which is fairly hardwired into you when you're an infant and begin to have true emotional responses to the world around you.  

I'm sorry I keep writing walls, guys. 

[Deviant Ingredient]

In response to the last couple of posts on the last page I'm also one of those people who'd like to kick the spirit/demon to the curve. I liked Justice well enough in Awakening, minus his preachy self-righteous attitude, but what he's doing to Anders right now is pretty crappy. I know he's part demon now and whatnot but for someone who claimed how evil it is for demons to take over mages you think he would have some awareness that he's hurting Anders and doing the same thing at times. Unless he assumed Anders is cool with it since he allowed the merge to begin with. We know Anders punishes himself for corrupting his friend but does Justice/Vengence want to punish himself for hurting Anders?

Oh and happy holidays folks!

[FiliusMartis]

I think I was misunderstood. I understand that when you rival Anders, he assumes that you do not support mage freedom. What I mean to say is that you do not have to choose cruel responses or play anti-mage in order to earn rivalry points. As much as I love Anders, summing him up as mage freedom end of story is really not accurate. Anders is a product if Chantry society-- he seems to believe their teachings involving blood magic and demonology, for instance. So while the game does limit you, you can use a certain amount of your imagination here. Even Anders mentioned my support of mages on two different occasions while he was maxed out on rivalry. It can be done!

That being said, I would certainly not say that the rivalry path makes things worse for him and Justice. Whether you are on the friend or rival path, he will always almost kill that girl. Justice/Vengeance becomes an issue for Anders no matter what. You see more of it on the rivalry path because he's more willing to admit it to both you and himself, whereas he seems in a fair bit of denial on the friendship path.

I was fairly confident that devs had confirmed that if Hawke kills Anders that's it. Anders does not have a get out of death free card. So how he would "stick around" is beyond me, and even moreso why he would remain with Hawke who stabbed him and sided with templars and not Hawke who didn't stab him is.. weird.

[Fox In The Box]

I don't think what Anders' friendship/ rivalry is about. Even with all his issues - and he recognizes that he has he has issues, else he wouldn't put a chastity belt on himself out of concern for Hawke's safety - on the friendship path, he feels that merging with Justice was ultimately the Right Thing to do, which, among other things, makes him more accepting towards using violent means to achieve his ends. In his mind, he screwed up his own life because he had to. Saying that he is in denial implies that his decision is objectively wrong, which is isn't accurate - it all winds up in how the player interprets his character and story, and there are quite a few who agree with what he did.

Rivalry, on the other hand, is about making him see that merging with Justice was the Wrong Thing to do and how much he hurt himself by doing so. Anders starts to doubt himself while Justice is still as hellbent on his actions as ever - which causes a schism between the two, resulting in the problems with Justice assuming Direct Control. He only admits those kinds of issues there, because it's only in the rivalry that they occur - in the friendship path, they work together.

Rivalry isn't objectively the "wrong" path, but neither is friendship. It's all about how you interpret his character and whether you agree with his actions or not.

As for the endgame, I'm pretty sure that his sticking around while dead is just a glitch. Unless Bioware is foreshadowing some sort of zombie DLC. Which... awesome.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 24 décembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[FiliusMartis]

When I say he's in denial, I mean about the nature of his and Justice merger. Even on the friendship path, he maintains that Justice is not a demon and that he is in control of the situation. Saying he is in denial does not imply that his decision was wrong; it implies that he is denying the nature of his situation, which I still think he is.

Again, the issue with Justice trying to kill Ella occurs even on the friendship path. They do not entirely agree, and this is a primary example. Do they agree *more* on the friendship path as opposed to the rivalry one? Sure, but Justice is getting out of control either way.

If I recall, Awakening conversations defined a demon as a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. That's Vengeance, and not only that, but Dissent shows that he is willing to fight against the will of his host. Anders tends to maintain that Justice is not a demon. He repeatedly chastises Merrill for working with a demon. To me, that's denial.

[Nyreen]

FiliusMartis wrote...

When I say he's in denial, I mean about the nature of his and Justice merger. Even on the friendship path, he maintains that Justice is not a demon and that he is in control of the situation. Saying he is in denial does not imply that his decision was wrong; it implies that he is denying the nature of his situation, which I still think he is.

Again, the issue with Justice trying to kill Ella occurs even on the friendship path. They do not entirely agree, and this is a primary example. Do they agree *more* on the friendship path as opposed to the rivalry one? Sure, but Justice is getting out of control either way.

If I recall, Awakening conversations defined a demon as a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. That's Vengeance, and not only that, but Dissent shows that he is willing to fight against the will of his host. Anders tends to maintain that Justice is not a demon. He repeatedly chastises Merrill for working with a demon. To me, that's denial.

It's not hypocrisy on Anders' part for condemning Merrill's use of bloodmagic. Ultimately, it is proven that Merrill was the one in the most denial. For nearly a decade she slaved over a single artifact that had no solid evidence that it could unlock any ancient secrets. The Eluvian brought her no knowledge, and had Marethari not intervened the Pride Demon would have sought Merrill instead.

Modifié par Celestina, 24 décembre 2011 - 11:44 .

[ladyshamen]

Happy Holiday's to all.

I just found a really beautiful pic ( IMO ). However, I don't think I can put it up here. If you want to take a peek :

http://i1084.photobu...ore-d3evbny.jpg

[FiliusMartis]

Celestina wrote...

FiliusMartis wrote...

When I say he's in denial, I mean about the nature of his and Justice merger. Even on the friendship path, he maintains that Justice is not a demon and that he is in control of the situation. Saying he is in denial does not imply that his decision was wrong; it implies that he is denying the nature of his situation, which I still think he is.

Again, the issue with Justice trying to kill Ella occurs even on the friendship path. They do not entirely agree, and this is a primary example. Do they agree *more* on the friendship path as opposed to the rivalry one? Sure, but Justice is getting out of control either way.

If I recall, Awakening conversations defined a demon as a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. That's Vengeance, and not only that, but Dissent shows that he is willing to fight against the will of his host. Anders tends to maintain that Justice is not a demon. He repeatedly chastises Merrill for working with a demon. To me, that's denial.

It's not hypocrisy on Anders' part for condemning Merrill's use of bloodmagic. Ultimately, it is proven that Merrill was the one in the most denial. For nearly a decade she slaved over a single artifact that had no solid evidence that it could unlock any ancient secrets. The Eluvian brought her no knowledge, and had Marethari not intervened the Pride Demon would have sought Merrill instead.

Okay, whoa, none of that is proven, it's one possible interpretation and there are PLENTY more in the Merrill thread.  That being said, I never said it was hypocritical of Anders to condemn her blood magic.  In fact, at one point he and Merrill have a conversation where he seems to assume that she discovered blood magic by accident and surely didn't deal with a demon.  She flat out says she did, and that is when he gets upset.  She dealt with a demon which is bad.  If Anders is willingly working with Justice on any level then (by the definition established in Awakening) he too is dealing with a demon.  He doesn't see it that way because he doesn't want to entirely accept what Justice has become.  Please do not let this become a bash Merrill tangent. =\\

@ladyshamen: That is a very pretty picture, indeed.

[nirvana6794]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Celestina wrote...

FiliusMartis wrote...

When I say he's in denial, I mean about the nature of his and Justice merger. Even on the friendship path, he maintains that Justice is not a demon and that he is in control of the situation. Saying he is in denial does not imply that his decision was wrong; it implies that he is denying the nature of his situation, which I still think he is.

Again, the issue with Justice trying to kill Ella occurs even on the friendship path. They do not entirely agree, and this is a primary example. Do they agree *more* on the friendship path as opposed to the rivalry one? Sure, but Justice is getting out of control either way.

If I recall, Awakening conversations defined a demon as a spirit who has been perverted by its desires. That's Vengeance, and not only that, but Dissent shows that he is willing to fight against the will of his host. Anders tends to maintain that Justice is not a demon. He repeatedly chastises Merrill for working with a demon. To me, that's denial.

It's not hypocrisy on Anders' part for condemning Merrill's use of bloodmagic. Ultimately, it is proven that Merrill was the one in the most denial. For nearly a decade she slaved over a single artifact that had no solid evidence that it could unlock any ancient secrets. The Eluvian brought her no knowledge, and had Marethari not intervened the Pride Demon would have sought Merrill instead.

Okay, whoa, none of that is proven, it's one possible interpretation and there are PLENTY more in the Merrill thread.  That being said, I never said it was hypocritical of Anders to condemn her blood magic.  In fact, at one point he and Merrill have a conversation where he seems to assume that she discovered blood magic by accident and surely didn't deal with a demon.  She flat out says she did, and that is when he gets upset.  She dealt with a demon which is bad.  If Anders is willingly working with Justice on any level then (by the definition established in Awakening) he too is dealing with a demon.  He doesn't see it that way because he doesn't want to entirely accept what Justice has become.  Please do not let this become a bash Merrill tangent. 

To be honest, though, Anders does seem to condemn Merrill in a "don't make the same mistake I did" sort of way.  He has a dialogue where he recounts being possessed to her, she tells him to stop because it scares her, and he says "That's the point."

Happy holidays, everyone!  (And a belated Hanukkah, too)! 

[FiliusMartis]

You're right, but that's much later. Even then, based on what's been said here, he's still willing to go along with Justice's plan. On the friendship path, I believe he acknowledges Vengeance and states that it is intertwined with Justice. He still thinks that there is a good spirit there. On rivalry he states that Justice has become Vengeance and admits that Vengeance is a demon. Perhaps it's a subtle difference, but having done both paths, both romances, I definitely see it.

[nirvana6794]

No, they really do make it as obvious as they can without spelling it out in neon caps. Considering how little we actually see of the companions' interactions, I just assumed at Merrill and Anders probably get along better than we see. He's really only outright hostile to her when she's being thick about blood magic, and she does seem to actually like him up until he pulls off his crowning moment of dickishness during her last quest.

[FiliusMartis]

Maybe we were talking about different things in regards to subtle and obvious, but no matter. Can't you spec Anders as a blood mage in Awakening, which he sort of laughs off? I would think that Merrill and Anders get along; I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I think if you're romancing Merrill, he potentially gets jealous as evidenced by his confrontation about it.. in front of her.. while you're wading in poo for him. At any rate, he does ask her to stand with the mages in Act III, and she's the only companion who directly advocates sparing him in the end. I was more using her as the example because of how often the word "Demon" is thrown around in regards to her spirit.

[nirvana6794]

He was so different in Awakening, though, so I can only assume his sudden switch to "BLOOD MAGIC IS EVIL!!!!11!" came from Justice, who associates it with demons.  
And Anders gets confrontational, jealous, and mildly possessive of Hawke whenever he's not romanced.  He's the only one to actively make unnecessary petty jabs against the other LI's because he's so attached to/has a massive crush on/is in love with Hawke no matter what.  Even if Anders isn't The One for Hawke, Hawke is The One for Anders, and he resents not being seen as such.

I honestly do think they might be friendly, if not actual friends, with each other so long as blood magic and possession don't come up in conversation.  Merrill isn't possessed or directly in contact with her "spirit"--it only taught her blood magic in exchange for a foothold in the real world, and her religion doesn't have a black and white concept of spirits.  To the Dalish, all Fade entities are gray and grey, and none of them are safe or should be trusted.  Anders was a devout Andrastian when he was younger, and is still a believer but isn't practicing anymore, and believes that demons clearly break down into different sins and are purely evil while spirits are upstanding, purest of pure paragons of virtues.  He had no reason to believe that his own anger towards the chantry and templars would corrupt Justice enough to turn him into Vengeance, and consequently can't reconcile that Merrill doesn't define spirits, demons, and possession the way he does.  And Justice is inside him and not in the Fade and is in constant, very direct contact with him.  

I absolutely adore Merrill, for the record.  I'm just a chronic Anderstian.

[Deviant Ingredient]

Another reason why I only romance Anders, he's got a sucky sucky life and needs a bit of joy in his life. The other romancible characters I think can form perfectly normal attachments later in life. Btw has anyone fully maxed Merril's friendship before her quest in the second act and denied her the carving tool?

[Heidenreich]

Yes. If you lock her bar then even her own personal quest has no effect.

[Arquen]

Hey Anders thread... been reading the discussion going on. Ahhh the ole "Justice is a demon" thing, LOL.

Basically, I don't think Anders was all that much different in Awakenings. I think it's a valid concern to suggest that Justice "changed" somewhat, but I'm not sure he is straight up "demon" now. I find it very difficult to rival Anders. Not because of the mage freedom thing, but because of what it does to Anders. On the rival path he is at odds with himself, tearing himself apart from the inside out, and it devolves into blackouts and in the end he admits that Justice has become a demon and that he truly is an abomination. He regrets what he did, and he hates himself for it, and I just don't see a healthy way that can end. It is a very tragic ending for him, and it is painful to watch his psyche break down like that. I don't think it is the better path, and I don't think on the friendship path he is in any kind of denial about Justice or Vengeance.

He realizes, even on friendship that Justice has changed and become Vengeance, and that he is no longer the friend Anders knew. He accepts that he was trying to do something good for a friend, and Hawke becomes a force he can attach himself to. Someone who believes in him and, more importantly, believes that what he did with Justice was, at its core, a brave act meant well. That Hawke understands that Anders was trying to do the best he could for a friend. In the rival path Anders is latching onto Hawke because Hawke is a force in Kirkwall that is driving change and he feels like he must convince Hawke that the Circle and the treatment of mages is wrong. "I will MAKE you see!" Hawke also feeds his self hatred, and he believes that what he did with Justice is unforgiveable, and moreso, that he destroyed Justice and MADE him into a demon with his own anger. It's a very sad road, and ends up causing a fracture in Anders that is (IMHO) impossible to fix. If you force him to side with the Templars it is pretty clear he has reached the crisis point where he doesn't even trust himself to make a legitimate decision anymore, and follows blindly. He also suggests that there is no way out for him, and he pretty much says he will kill himself. If you rival him and side with the mages he maintains that he took a spirit into him, and is shocked that you would fight with him, but the dialogue is the same as on the friendship path. Still, he maintains that rival nature where he doesn't trust himself, and I think he is almost better off if you kill him in the rival scenario. More merciful than having someone constantly fighting to save pieces of oneself when they don't even realize where "their thoughts end and his begin."

Also, I know this is total Wall-o-texting, but I think Anders might have a bit of Dysgraphia. I don't think he is dyslexic or unintelligent or something, but I think when it comes to his manifestos and even just trying to articulate his arguments he does exhibit some signs of dysgraphia. It would also explain all those spelling errors in his manifesto that Hawke talks about, but dysgraphia has nothing to do with intelligence, since people who have it are usually VERY intelligent, but have a hard time putting their thoughts and ideas down into words coherently. I think it makes a lot of sense, and is my headcanon for Anders anyway.

Also, Merry Christmas Anders thread and Happy Holidays to everyone! Hope everyone is having a good one!

[Deviant Ingredient]

Happy holidays everyone! Looky at what my dad's wife got me! [image]cid:B0E693D1-2C08-4226-AE91-2A4F9D983766/photo.JPG[/image]

[Deviant Ingredient]

Oops, hang on. I swear I'll figure this out. =.=

[FiliusMartis]

Calling Justice a demon depends entirely upon settling on a definition for demon. For instance, Merrill maintains that spirits are all potentially negative and are generally neutral. However, the chantry teaches that there is a difference. A spirit, corrupted by desire, willing to forcibly control the host. That would constitute a demon, and Vengeance fits the bill. If you want to argue semantics, then you can, but I see little point.

People seem to be under the impression that Hawke's rivalry is the sole cause for some of what you see on the rivalry path, but honestly there is plenty of evidence of things falling apart on the friendship path. I've already pointed these out. The primary difference is what Anders is willing or able to see. That being said, Anders cares for Hawke, even on rivalry, even before Hawke is all that important. He wants to 'make Hawke see' just as much because of his affection as because of any social standing.

The curiosity of what that image could be is KILLING me. Just fyi.

[Melca36]

Justice is NOT a demon.

If he had been a demon, he would have been better able to control Corypheus in Legacy.

It was not Justice that brought out those shades. They both lost control and Corypheus took over.

Justice is more like an arrogant teenager/adolescent trapped in a world he does NOT understand and thats why Anders has trouble controlling his moods.

[Deviant Ingredient]

@FiliusMartis: I'll have to post the image when I get access to an actual computer and not just my phone. Needless to say what I got is Anders related.

[ladyshamen]

OK, Now I want to see the pic too!
I agree with Melca, I think the shades were Corypheus' doing.

[nirvana6794]

FiliusMartis wrote...

Calling Justice a demon depends entirely upon settling on a definition for demon. For instance, Merrill maintains that spirits are all potentially negative and are generally neutral. However, the chantry teaches that there is a difference. A spirit, corrupted by desire, willing to forcibly control the host. That would constitute a demon, and Vengeance fits the bill. If you want to argue semantics, then you can, but I see little point.

People seem to be under the impression that Hawke's rivalry is the sole cause for some of what you see on the rivalry path, but honestly there is plenty of evidence of things falling apart on the friendship path. I've already pointed these out. The primary difference is what Anders is willing or able to see. That being said, Anders cares for Hawke, even on rivalry, even before Hawke is all that important. He wants to 'make Hawke see' just as much because of his affection as because of any social standing.

I'm not saying I think Justice is actually a demon, but the fact that Anders himself identifies Vengeance as one is important.  Even in the end, he maintains that Justice is still somewhere inside him and that Vengeance is the one assuming direct control on both relationship paths.  As far as we know, the only definite difference is that demons have desires and the potential to corrupt others with them, so yes, that makes Vengeance a demon.  Word of Gaider is that there is a fundamental difference between spirits and demons that they haven't been given the opportunity to properly explore and make clear.  

I think Hawke's rivalry with Anders adds fuel to the fire, certainly, but it's not what makes Anders suffer more on that path.  He's obviously losing his grip either way, but on the rivalry/rivalmance path he has that obsessive desire to convince Hawke to join him in his crusade for mage freedom; it's that desire that drives him to question himself, because he'd trying harder to articulate why it's so crucial that Hawke understand, and in doing so he has to more closely examine why he's fighting as hard as he is, and when he starts to question himself he causes a schism between himself, Justice, and Vengeance.  On the friendship/friendmance path, he doesn't need to do that, and he, Justice, and Vengeance are in relative harmony with each other.