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[Melca36]

slyborg wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

slyborg wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

slyborg wrote...

Demon & Spirit... different creatures. Just because Justice/Vengeance's voice has a deep cadence, doesn't mean he is a demon! Anders blows up the Chantry to wake people up not because he has a desire for pride, hunger, sloth etc. like other demons. While his actions may seem evil to some, they are not motivated by evil, which is the whole point of a demon.

Creature of the Fade = evil. Kill em all.

That's your opinion. Did you also kill Wynne who had a spirit inside her?

After she had outlived her usefulness? Absolutely, though I had no such opportunity.

In fact, teams of mages should enter the Fade and kill every spirit they see. "Good" or "bad." Neither is safe for the living or the dead.

Well, it is refreshing to see where an Anders troll's loyalties lie. As long as things are useful, okay. After that, murder knife. Just start an Anders hate thread/group and get it over with.

It makes me wonder if these haters hate people of different faiths and nationalities in real life

[CrimsonZephyr]

Melca36 wrote...

slyborg wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

slyborg wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

slyborg wrote...

Demon & Spirit... different creatures. Just because Justice/Vengeance's voice has a deep cadence, doesn't mean he is a demon! Anders blows up the Chantry to wake people up not because he has a desire for pride, hunger, sloth etc. like other demons. While his actions may seem evil to some, they are not motivated by evil, which is the whole point of a demon.

Creature of the Fade = evil. Kill em all.

That's your opinion. Did you also kill Wynne who had a spirit inside her?

After she had outlived her usefulness? Absolutely, though I had no such opportunity.

In fact, teams of mages should enter the Fade and kill every spirit they see. "Good" or "bad." Neither is safe for the living or the dead.

Well, it is refreshing to see where an Anders troll's loyalties lie. As long as things are useful, okay. After that, murder knife. Just start an Anders hate thread/group and get it over with.

It makes me wonder if these haters hate people of different faiths and nationalities in real life

So long as they interact in good faith and don't have malevolent ulterior motives.

[CuriousArtemis]

Thanks, lady And agree with Melca. I've no love for the Chantry, and it probably doesn't help that I'm distrustful of organized religion in real life, too. (I am agnostic.)

It IS shocking that there are people on this forum who think locking up all mages is the right thing to do. Yes, it does smack of present day racism against such peoples as Muslims and others. It also reminds me of the Japanese internment camps. So horrific! It is a wonder what fear will do to some people.

[CrimsonZephyr]

motomotogirl wrote...

Thanks, lady And agree with Melca. I've no love for the Chantry, and it probably doesn't help that I'm distrustful of organized religion in real life, too. (I am agnostic.)

It IS shocking that there are people on this forum who think locking up all mages is the right thing to do. Yes, it does smack of present day racism against such peoples as Muslims and others. It also reminds me of the Japanese internment camps. So horrific! It is a wonder what fear will do to some people.

I actually support more rights for mages, but abominations and blood mages? Kill them all. And make mages hunt them.

[Melca36]

motomotogirl wrote...

Thanks, lady And agree with Melca. I've no love for the Chantry, and it probably doesn't help that I'm distrustful of organized religion in real life, too. (I am agnostic.)

It IS shocking that there are people on this forum who think locking up all mages is the right thing to do. Yes, it does smack of present day racism against such peoples as Muslims and others. It also reminds me of the Japanese internment camps. So horrific! It is a wonder what fear will do to some people.

The hatred people have for Muslims makes me sick to my stomach.

Its going to be funny to see these mage haters during the next game because there will likely be something HUGE in the next game that will require both sides to work together and in the process, mages will likely be given more freedoms.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Melca36 wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Thanks, lady And agree with Melca. I've no love for the Chantry, and it probably doesn't help that I'm distrustful of organized religion in real life, too. (I am agnostic.)

It IS shocking that there are people on this forum who think locking up all mages is the right thing to do. Yes, it does smack of present day racism against such peoples as Muslims and others. It also reminds me of the Japanese internment camps. So horrific! It is a wonder what fear will do to some people.

The hatred people have for Muslims makes me sick to my stomach.

Its going to be funny to see these mage haters during the next game because there will likely be something HUGE in the next game that will require both sides to work together and in the process, mages will likely be given more freedoms.

I hate Anders. I don't hate mages. They should have more freedoms. Just not the freedom to use blood magic or make pacts with spirits. If they do, it is right that they should meet the headsman's axe.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:28 .

[Melca36]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

Thanks, lady And agree with Melca. I've no love for the Chantry, and it probably doesn't help that I'm distrustful of organized religion in real life, too. (I am agnostic.)

It IS shocking that there are people on this forum who think locking up all mages is the right thing to do. Yes, it does smack of present day racism against such peoples as Muslims and others. It also reminds me of the Japanese internment camps. So horrific! It is a wonder what fear will do to some people.

I actually support more rights for mages, but abominations and blood mages? Kill them all. And make mages hunt them.

And thats what is likely going to happen in the next game..................


Its not just going to be Templar/Seekers VS Mages

You will see Mages VS Blood Mages

You will see normal citizens siding with the mages..

But you will also see mages, templars, and seekers likely joining forces to defeat an even bigger threat.

[CuriousArtemis]

Melca36 wrote...

You will see Mages VS Blood Mages

You will see normal citizens siding with the mages..

But you will also see mages, templars, and seekers likely joining forces to defeat an even bigger threat.

That's going to be fascinating!!

Of course what BW knows is that what makes us compassionate towards a cause is not just base principle and idealism; it's the people we know and love.

So I could say I'm totally against blood mages ... until I meet Merrill.  Suddenly, I am not so sure; I still believe blood magic is wrong, but Merrill is my friend, and I truly love her.  I could never turn her in to the other side.  In fact, I may even be willing to go against my own principles to protect her...

And so on and so on   Of course, the same could be said about Anders, but his situation doesn't seem as cut and dry as Merrill's, who knowingly dabbles with danger.  I still think of Anders as someone who made one foolish decision in his youth and will suffer for it for the rest of his life, poor dear man.  

The one thing I hope they will not do is FORCE your companions to choose sides; just as Hawke is able to convince Fenris to fight with him/her to prevent mass homicide against innocent mages, I hope the DA3 PC is able to do the same.  I think they were only able to get away with making Sebastian a staunch YES OR NOT decision is because he is a bought and paid for character, and hence not a real companion.  

[CrimsonZephyr]

Merrill should meet the headsman's axe. She's a good person, but she did not do the right thing. They're not the same. It'd be a better world if it was. But to let her live spits in the face of Bethany, Wynne, and every other mage who never used blood magic, who followed the law.

[slyborg]

Well, kill everyone you hate and leave us to love Anders and every other character who has made mistakes in their lives but is still trying to do good.

DA2 related note for Mac users... DA2 is on sale with DA:O on Amazon for ri-dicolously cheap. Since my Xbox is broken with DA2 inside, I had to pick it up again for Mac!

Modifié par slyborg, 17 janvier 2012 - 12:43 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

slyborg wrote...

Well, kill everyone you hate and leave us to love Anders and every other character who has made mistakes in their lives but is still trying to do good.

DA2 related note for Mac users... DA2 is on sale with DA:O on Amazon for ri-dicolously cheap. Since my Xbox is broken with DA2 inside, I had to pick it up again for Mac!

Murder can be a mistake in retrospect. That shouldn't lessen the punishment.

Since blood magic and demon pacts are capital crimes in Thedas, Anders should rightfully be killed. It doesn't matter whether he was a good man, or whether he was trying. Either he did the right thing or he didn't. To leave the guilty unpunished insults the innocent. You don't see Bethany making demon pacts or slitting her wrists, do you?

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 17 janvier 2012 - 12:54 .

[nirvana6794]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Murder can be a mistake in retrospect. That shouldn't lessen the punishment.

Since blood magic and demon pacts are capital crimes in Thedas, Anders should rightfully be killed. It doesn't matter whether he was a good man, or whether he was trying. Either he did the right thing or he didn't. To leave the guilty unpunished insults the innocent. You don't see Bethany making demon pacts or slitting her wrists, do you?

Anders didn't make a pact with a demon, though.  It's not even clear if Justice really became Vengeance, and it's even less clear if Vengeance is actually a demon or not.  Word of Gaider is that there is a fundamental difference between spirits and demons, which could mean one can't become the other.  Asunder explains this a little more clearly, but still not flat-out, but I won't spoil anything for you if you have any plans to read it.  

Your dismissal of Anders is still troubling, though.  Hepler wrote him as being bipolar (disregarding that he's possessed here), and the character has had some incredibly traumatic life experiences that would've left some major psychological scars behind (being taken from his family as a teenager, a year in solitary confinement, systematic attempts to convince him his very existence is blasphemy); do you really think someone deserves to be put to death because they lack control over their emotions and consequently behave rashly?  Are you all for the genocide of the mentally ill?  

Anders doesn't kill anybody who didn't attack him first, because there's a way to prevent him from killing Ella during Dissent.  He doesn't use blood magic.  His attack on the chantry is an act of war, yes, but the people who die as a result were the oppressors and antagonists of his people.  

And Merrill didn't make a pact with a demon in exchange for power; she was trying to reclaim some of her people's decimated culture, and she made the mistake of resorting to blood magic to get it.  It's not like she was crazy and running around killing innocents to try and repair the Eluvian.  She relied upon herself, and comes to regret her actions.  

But all of this seems silly now, because of course you don't sympathize with Anders and Merrill--you can't wrap your mind around what it's like to be persecuted for an accident of birth, and eventually strike back against the ones who demonize or victimize you.  Your comments smack of someone who has only ever known the privlege of being in a "superior" social position, who has no idea what it's like to be in constant fear or paranoia because you have no one to be afraid of, or what it's like to be considered less of a person because of something you had no control over.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Blood magic and becoming the vessels of malevolent spirits are against the law. Hard lives or tragic mistakes be damned, there is only what is legal and what is illegal. There is only the law, and it says, clear as crystal, that both acts are capital crimes. What about all the mages who followed the law? Should they be brushed aside for one's sympathy for criminals and terrorists? Anders and Merrill didn't have to merge with a demon or use blood magic. Those acts were entirely in their control. They made their choice and it was the wrong one, the illegal one, one deserving of death. To give any less is an insult to the mages who refused to follow their paths.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 17 janvier 2012 - 03:00 .

[nirvana6794]

Anders didn't merge with a demon.  There's a fundamental difference.  What he did was no different than what happened to Wynne, because you're forgetting that she also plays host to a Fade spirit.  His merger is less harmonious because he's a more emotional and possibly mentally unstable character to begin with.  
If Wynne is one of these upstanding mages you want to defend, you're a hypocrite because she, by your logic, also committed a capital offense and deserves death.  Same goes for Bethany, who was a lifelong apostate, because apostacy is also a criminal offense in Thedas.  She was breaking the law from the moment she came into her magic.  Kill her, too, right?

And Dalish mages aren't policed the same way as other mages are--there are less Dalish than there are any other group in Thedas, and they have less mages (generally only two in a clan, and there aren't very many clans anymore); they practice a pagan religion and have a different set of beliefs, and frown upon blood magic less than Andrastians do (the Dalish in DA2 are more afraid of the Eluvian than they are of Merrill's blood magic).  What's illegal in Kirkwall isn't necessarily illegal to the Dalish, because they're only a peripheral concern of both the city guard and the templars, who know the clan has a mage (Marethari) among them.  

Blood magic isn't inherently evil.  You don't need a demon to learn it.  It uses blood instead of lyrium as fuel, but that's the only difference.  Oh, and lyrium is highly addictive and an illegal substance when used improperly, so let's round up all the templars who abuse it and the mages who need it, because they're breaking a law, too.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean someone who breaks the law deserves to die.  Do you think everyone who drives over the speed limit deserves the death penalty as much as a murderer or rapist?  Do teenagers who smoke or drink before they're of age deserve to be put to death?  Those things are illegal, too, but killing people who do those things is insanity.

http://meronym.tumbl...-anders-actions 

[CrimsonZephyr]

Bethany surrendered willingly and proved to be an exemplary mage. Wynne should have been executed.

Dalish live on Andrastian land, hence why Templars have every right to slaughter them when encountered. If you cannot enforce your laws on the land you own, there is no society. By that logic, different demographic groups don't need to follow the law of the land in which they live because of cultural differences.

Lyrium addiction isn't a capital crime, hence execution is not necessary. Notice how I made that distinction? Or were you too busy defending iniquity and criminality? Blood magic tears the Veil much more easily and has a natural affinity with demons. Those who practice it are a threat to all free people, mage or not.

[BevH]

FallTooDovahkiin wrote...

 Hello fellow Anders fans 
Sorry, I don't really know how too greet people much these days..

I must ask a question, which I will possibly feel foolish for asking later on xD
Anyway though, I've had DA2 for awhile, never played it until recently. I started a romance with Anders, everything was going good until, I believe he "dumped" my Hawke..
I was also on a friendship path, don't have the heart to rivalmance him. Anyway though, he still lives with my character and all that stuff.
Did he officially end the romance or is it like the Fenris romance?

I'm pretty .. saddened by this. And started another playthrough just incase if I forgot to do something.

I'm pretty sure this maynot be needed but this also happened after his quest Justice..

I believe it's meant to feel that way, but, no, Anders hasn't dumped Hawke. He's trying to push her/him away again for her/his own good. The romance is still active, so you just need to be patient!

[nirvana6794]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Bethany surrendered willingly and proved to be an exemplary mage. Wynne should have been executed.

Dalish live on Andrastian land, hence why Templars have every right to slaughter them when encountered. If you cannot enforce your laws on the land you own, there is no society. By that logic, different demographic groups don't need to follow the law of the land in which they live because of cultural differences.

Lyrium addiction isn't a capital crime, hence execution is not necessary. Notice how I made that distinction? Or were you too busy defending iniquity and criminality? Blood magic tears the Veil much more easily and has a natural affinity with demons. Those who practice it are a threat to all free people, mage or not.

Regardless of how she surrenders, Bethany is a lifelong criminal because being an apostate is illegal, and your logic demands that people who break the law be put to death.  

That the Dalish live on Andrastian land is irrelevent, because they aren't persecuted because of their religion; the templars don't care that they aren't Andrastians beyond "the Chant of Light must be sung fromall four corners of the world for the Maker to return to us."  They ignore the Dalish because the Dalish aren't their problem unless they wander too close to an Andrastian city.  Templars, who are mage-hunters, are well aware of there being at least one mage among the Dalish, and they do nothing because it's not their concern, despite the fact that the mage is an apostate, and allow that mage to live among her people for a decade and never once attempt to slaughter the clan or make them leave.  

There is plenty of society in Kirkwall despite all the rampant law-breaking being committed every other minute, and the templars don't really seem to be trying all that hard to enforce their own laws, except for the ones that let them illegally make mages Tranquil.  To make a Harrowed mage Tranquil is against Chantry doctrine, and the Chantry is the supreme governing power in Thedas; that Meredith, Orsino, and Elthina allowed that abuse to occur makes them deserving of death.  

I do see how you made that distinction, but you aren't even attempting to see where I'm making mine.  I've offerred up two seperate, eloquent explainations that provide context for the arguments I'm making.  I'm not defending iniquity or criminality, and everyone is deserving of equal treatment under the law, but when there are groups of people who are treated as less than equal because of something beyond their control (being a mage or an elf or what have you) there is a serious flaw in the system and the punishments metted out must be questioned.  When people are aquitted and allowed to walk free because they're good-looking or wealthy (which happens frequently in the American justice system), and people who are innocent are targetted as being guilty because of being a minority or poor (which also happens), there is a serious flaw within the system and the punishments metted out must be questioned. 

I don't have a problem with what you're saying.  I don't mean to sound like I'm attacking your beliefs.  But I do think that calling for the execution of everyone who breaks a law even when they are extremely justified, the law being broken is more harmful than not, or whether they are truly guilty or not, is madness.  

[slyborg]

I don't think there is any point left arguing with CZ. I don't understand the irrational belief that everything in the Fade is evil and should be killed. The world seems only black and white in CZ's perspective, there is no middle ground. The Dalish should die for not living by the laws of the Chantry? How extremist can you get?

[CrimsonZephyr]

slyborg wrote...

I don't think there is any point left arguing with CZ. I don't understand the irrational belief that everything in the Fade is evil and should be killed. The world seems only black and white in CZ's perspective, there is no middle ground. The Dalish should die for not living by the laws of the Chantry? How extremist can you get?

Seeing as it's the Chantry's land, and laws regarding magic are also accepted by secular institutions, by living in discord with established law, especially with regard to magic, the violation of which is a capital crime, the eradication of the Dalish is wholly justified. If you do not have the right to enforce law on one's own land, civilization cannot exist. It would be the same if the Dalish were ruling. When in Rome, you do as Romans do, under pain of death if necessary.

As for spirits. A demon turns a mage into a rabid animal and a spirit compels a mage to terrorism. Wouldn't you want these entities eradicated. Think carefully. It's easily to speak of rights when one isn't being mauled to death or their loves aren't being attacked.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 17 janvier 2012 - 05:56 .

[TEWR]

By your logic CrimsonZephyr, the mages shouldn't be fighting in the war since Chantry law and the law of the land say that they're supposed to live in the Circles.

But because they're breaking the law -- and are now apostates with no intention of going back -- they deserve to die.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 17 janvier 2012 - 06:02 .

[slyborg]

A SPIRIT IS NOT A DEMON!!!! How many times must one type it. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

I am replaying the Magi origin and a SPIRIT of Valor gave me a staff so I was able to defeat the DEMON during my Harrowing. See, a SPIRIT helped me defeat a DEMON. The spirit didn't try to force its way into the world to cause chaos.

If that can't clear things up, you have serious problems. And you Chantry lands argument is wrong. The lands of Thedas belong to the people, not the Church. It isn't a theocracy. The Chantry is the powerful religion of the land but they can't force people to believe what they believe. The very reason the templars don't go storming in, slaughtering all the Dalish tribes is because they have no right to.

Modifié par slyborg, 17 janvier 2012 - 06:12 .

[esper]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

slyborg wrote...

I don't think there is any point left arguing with CZ. I don't understand the irrational belief that everything in the Fade is evil and should be killed. The world seems only black and white in CZ's perspective, there is no middle ground. The Dalish should die for not living by the laws of the Chantry? How extremist can you get?

Seeing as it's the Chantry's land, and laws regarding magic are also accepted by secular institutions, by living in discord with established law, especially with regard to magic, the violation of which is a capital crime, the eradication of the Dalish is wholly justified. If you do not have the right to enforce law on one's own land, civilization cannot exist. It would be the same if the Dalish were ruling. When in Rome, you do as Romans do, under pain of death if necessary.

As for spirits. A demon turns a mage into a rabid animal and a spirit compels a mage to terrorism. Wouldn't you want these entities eradicated. Think carefully. It's easily to speak of rights when one isn't being mauled to death or their loves aren't being attacked.

No they have a right to exits. They shouldn't leave the Fade, but if you are entering the Fade you are entering THEIR world and what you are suggesting is genocide and a genocide that would never suceed since demon and proberly also spirits can change name and form and so far are unknown how many there are. The only thing you would suceed in is turning more demons and spirits attention to the physical world, even those that before only were interested in securing their own dominance in the Fade. Not to mention that every spirit of Justice you came across would be pissed off and proberly jump to the conclusion that mortals are evil.  

we have a whole country Rivain where their Seers appaerently are abormination and it has not blown up to smihtereens. Anders did not turn into a terrorist because of Justice. He turned into a mage because he was kicked severely and repeataly  by the system and Justice made him unable to look away. Also he did a mistake in not beforehand acknowleding that Justice is not a peaceful and good emotion. 


Also I am anti-chantry and will not change to a postive opinion of them untill they hold theír religion out of the military and politics of the lands. I see no reason to even attempt to uphold a law which paint people as criminals for the crime of being born.

[nirvana6794]

And CZ is continually ignoring that Fade spirits are the Maker's first children, created before humans and elves according to the Chant. And, as far as we know, that's true, because there's no way to disprove it, Corypheus is proof that there really were magisters who physically entered the Fade and came upon the Goldnen/Black City, and it's entirely likely that the Maker and Dalish gods exist in a very real way. To wipe them out would be heresy, because they're closer to the Maker and the Dalish gods than we (humans) are.

To say that the Dalish deserve to be eradicated for living on Andrastian land is bogus, because Sundermount is Dalish land anyway, and Kirkwall acknowledges it as such, which is why no one tries to force them to leave.

[esper]

@Nirvana.
I don't buy the first children thing. I simply can't see demon and spirt as being of the same kind more than human and elves.
I also don't really buy the darkspawn thing, I still think the magisters merely created the awakened darkspawn. It still doesn't fit with the dwarven description of the first darkspawn and I am still more inclinced to believe the dwarves there. But then again, I am so anti-chantry that I do not respect anything they say past da2 so I am biased.

But your point still stay, since CZ keeps saying that the chantrys law should be respected and upholded, the chantry believe the whole first chilren thing and thus it would be herectic according to the chantry to wipe them out. (As well as the best way of awaken who know what kind of angry spirit thing who thinks that all human most be erased because they are absolutely evil)