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[Koire]

Cantina wrote...
Not a stretch at all. During the quest "Justice" if you speak to her, she clearly states she favors Templers over the Mages. This means is refuses to get her hands "dirty" and stop the injustice of Mages.

1. By the beginning of Act 3 Meredith has asked Elthina to invoke ROA, and Elthina refused. Since Meredith was left with no choice, she had to go over Elthina's head and has sent to the Divine in Val Royaux instead. Were there no Elthina, all mages in the Kirkwall Circle would be probably dead by then. Surely that means she did nothing at all
2. During the quest Faith she says that she favours peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help find it. She is a part of the system and is protecting it, but she is trying her best to resolve the existing issues. And she has very little power to help the mages, but she has a lot of power to help the templars, it is the nature of her position.

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 04:16 .

[wendolen]

It's been a few days since I checked the forums. My aggressive f!Hawke's rivalmance with Anders sucked me in so thoroughly that after the credits rolled, I immediately started a third PT, with a diplomatic m!Hawke, who is turning out to be quite a man****. I had this whole plan to rivalmance Fenris all the way through (because he's a grumpy bastard, so friendmance is out of the question, and because I was curious to hear Anders being jealous and snippy in party banter), and I got through the part where he walks out on you. But then when Anders first came on to me I couldn't bring myself to give him the broken heart response, and then when Isabela says she has a lead on the relic, I can never resist the "don't I get a kiss?" response, so she showed up at my house not long after, and I'm quite fond of her romance cutscene so I went ahead with it, and now I am inexplicably putting off Dissent... there's no doubt in my mind where things will go after that, because Anders kissyface is pretty much irresistable. 

Fox In The Box wrote...
Hmmm. I found a fanfic by the same name on this tumblr page and this tumblr page. Is that what you were looking for?

Yes! But I wonder where part 3 is... those only seem to have parts 1, 2, and 4.   Anyway, thanks!
edit: I found it! Here are direct links to all four parts, in case anyone else wants them:
http://anonymouscata...ing-is-creepy-1 
http://anonymouscata...ing-is-creepy-2 
http://anonymouscata...ing-is-creepy-3 
http://anonymouscata...ing-is-creepy-4 
edit 2: Fox In The Box is way ahead of me on this, disregard.

Modifié par wendolen, 04 mars 2012 - 06:37 .

[wendolen]

Cantina wrote...
It seems completely out of Anders character to ignore what happened with the girl in the Gallows and then go on as if nothing happened.

He doesn't, though -- through the rest of act 2 and in act 3, you can catch him still beating himself up over Ella, both when you click on him and in party banter. (I think Fenris brings it up in act 3.)

The first kiss scene with Anders was sad and pathetic. For the first part of the kiss, you got to see the back of his head, and then caught a glimpse of the kiss when he was pulling away. Then your first night with Anders, to me seemed, well, rather G rated, not a lot of passion, considering he has wanted your character for three years.

I found it quite adorably tender, myself.  Obviously YMMV. 

I would have liked to get to know Anders more and have that feeling we are in a relationship. Would have been nice to scale things up and in Act 3 have the opportunity to marry your romance option-but that is my opinion.

There is some suggestion that this happened -- like how Aveline and Donnic apparently married in the interim (this is discussed a bit more) -- but Varric does question Anders at one point about how stuff went, and one of the things he asks is "Did you go down on one knee?" Pretty unambiguous, at least to a native English-speaking audience. The expression may translate badly. Then again, Anders does refer to Hawke as a "partner" at least once -- but I have a feeling that was to keep it gender-neutral to avoid inflaming same-sex marriage opponents.

At any rate, each time I have played this game, I always side with the mage has and allow Anders to live. I believe what he did to the Chantry was the right choice. However, there are those who do not agree with what he did. The option to stop him completely would have been nice. The war between the Circle and Mage’s could have progressed but not have the same reasons for it starting or the outcome.

This is a good point, especially since as I understand it, events in DA: Asunder play just as big a role in triggering the rebellion of the Circles. (I have a copy but have not read it yet.) Another possibility would be to have the option to have Justice (the quest) play out as it does, through Anders placing the bomb, and then be able to talk him into a change of heart, at which point some other member of the mage underground could decide he's gone soft and set it off themselves. (I think averting the Chantry bombing entirely would be like somehow being able to convince the Arishok to leave peacefully -- it would screw with the structure of the game too thoroughly.)

By the way, did anyone else catch the bad pun at the end of Justice? You're talking to Elthina while Anders places the bomb, and then he comes to get you, and she says, "Your soul is troubled, child. I hope you found a balm for it here." *ba-dum-ching!* 

Modifié par wendolen, 04 mars 2012 - 05:54 .

[wendolen]

Alexa_ wrote...
Yes, I would give my soul if they brought back this charming, kidding Anders from Awakening!

But as I remember, somewhere one of the writers (Gaider or Hepler?) said that even if they could be separated, Anders' mind would suffer from it, because they had been merged for too long ...

Keeper Marethari says something to this effect during Mirror Image in act 3, as well, so we have in-character/lore support for that idea as well. I think it's probably out of the question in this case, although what Anders says at the start of Justice about the Tevinters having studied it is intriguing, and a couple of things in DAO dlc suggest that some mages of the Circle have researched it as well, despite its being against Chantry laws. Wilhelm has notes about it in his laboratory beneath Honnleath, and IIRC Avernus was working on this as well.

Does anybody else think DA3 in Tevinter sounds interesting? Or are the Tevinters going to remain boogeymen throughout the series?

[Koire]

wendolen wrote...
By the way, did anyone else catch the bad pun at the end of Justice? You're talking to Elthina while Anders places the bomb, and then he comes to get you, and she says, "Your soul is troubled, child. I hope you found a balm for it here." *ba-dum-ching!*

There are many of them, actually.

Anders during Justice q: No, no ritual. Just mix the ingredients up and...boom. Justice and I are free.

Sandal: Can I have some SalamAnders, please? 
Bodahn: Don't do it, that's where the boom comes from, I think.

Aveline: I have to admit, Anders. Of the mages I know, you're the one I expected to go out in a blaze.
Anders: The day is young.
Aveline: It was a compliment, you ass.
Anders: No, it wasn't.

And I think there were some more.

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[wendolen]

Koire wrote...

Cantina wrote...
Not a stretch at all. During the quest "Justice" if you speak to her, she clearly states she favors Templers over the Mages. This means is refuses to get her hands "dirty" and stop the injustice of Mages.

1. By the beginning of Act 3 Meredith has asked Elthina to invoke ROA, and Elthina refused. Since Meredith was left with no choice, she had to go over Elthina's head and has sent to the Divine in Val Royaux instead. Were there no Elthina, all mages in the Kirkwall Circle would be probably dead by then. Surely that means she did nothing at all

She refuses to act even then, however. Her choices are explicitly made to maintain the untenable status quo. It's easy to see Elthina as a villanous actor in the story -- in the cutscene at the start of act 3, I am appalled each time when she tells Meredith to "go back to the Gallows, like a good girl." At this point Meredith has been Knight-Commander in Kirkwall for at least 7 years -- she is hardly a girl, and however crazy she is, she doesn't deserve to be condescended to like that. How much of this casual belittlement has she been putting up with during that time? No wonder she's full of rage.

Modifié par wendolen, 04 mars 2012 - 06:07 .

[Fox In The Box]

wendolen wrote...

Yes! But I wonder where part 3 is... those only seem to have parts 1, 2, and 4.   Anyway, thanks!

Weird! I could have sworn number three was there. Ah, well, no matter. In fact, I found more!

Caring is Creepy; Part 1, part 2, part 3, part 4, part 5.

[Koire]

wendolen wrote...

Koire wrote...
1. By the beginning of Act 3 Meredith has asked Elthina to invoke ROA, and Elthina refused. Since Meredith was left with no choice, she had to go over Elthina's head and has sent to the Divine in Val Royaux instead. Were there no Elthina, all mages in the Kirkwall Circle would be probably dead by then. Surely that means she did nothing at all

She refuses to act even then, however. Her choices are explicitly made to maintain the untenable status quo. It's easy to see Elthina as a villanous actor in the story -- in the cutscene at the start of act 3, I am appalled each time when she tells Meredith to "go back to the Gallows, like a good girl." At this point Meredith has been Knight-Commander in Kirkwall for at least 7 years -- she is hardly a girl, and however crazy she is, she doesn't deserve to be condescended to like that. How much of this casual belittlement has she been putting up with during that time? No wonder she's full of rage.

Her choice is to maintain the status quo, I agree. Maintaining the status quo also means not allowing Meredith to kill the mages. I would not claim that it is enough, but I feel that a) it is unfair to say that she outright did nothing she actually had no power to do anything else.. we saw in Asunder that when the Divine (Elthina's superior) tried to oppose the Lord Seeker (~Meredith's superior), it resulted in nullification of the Nevarran Accord. I think were Elthina to do something against the templars, she would end just as poorly, and she knew it. She had only the power to help the templars, the power she did not use.

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 06:45 .

[CuriousArtemis]

wendolen wrote...

I found it quite adorably tender, myself.  Obviously YMMV.

I agree; it's a very sweet love scene.   Anymore explicit and I would feel uncomfortable watching them  like I was spying in on a porno, haha.  Anyway, it's very romantic, just like Anders himself.

The Isabela love scene is also very character-fitting.  It's feisty and fun, just like her.

I've never seen the Merrill love scene.

Only love scene that habitually makes me grind my teeth is the Fenris love scene. Why, because  ..... it doesn't exist.  Even the kiss outside is awkward-looking (and sometimes bugged).  I don't think they can animate their bodies properly in that position, which is why Hawke looks more like some alien trying to devour a hapless trapped Fenris up against the wall.  It's creepy!

Back to Anders though ... it really is the sweetest.  The way Hawke backs up onto the bed, and the way they're holding hands *squeeee!* .... it's just sweet!

Modifié par motomotogirl, 04 mars 2012 - 06:55 .

[Fox In The Box]

Merrill's romance scene isn't awfully exciting. When she pulls Hawke to bed, it's exactly like Anders' scene, except with a different camera angle. The conversation leading up to it is in Hawke's entrance hall instead of the bedroom, though, and it breaks my heart a little when Merrill makes it clear how highly she thinks of Hawke and how little she thinks of herself.

[Cantina]

Koire wrote...


1. By the beginning of Act 3 Meredith has asked Elthina to invoke ROA, and Elthina refused. Since Meredith was left with no choice, she had to go over Elthina's head and has sent to the Divine in Val Royaux instead. Were there no Elthina, all mages in the Kirkwall Circle would be probably dead by then. Surely that means she did nothing at all

The Circle was dead before that. Meradith was creating problems with the Mage's back in Act1. Elthenia refused to invoke the ROA because Meradith had no grounds to do it. Furthermore by this point Meradith was a complete nut case.

2. During the quest Faith she says that she favours peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help find it. She is a part of the system and is protecting it, but she is trying her best to resolve the existing issues. And she has very little power to help the mages, but she has a lot of power to help the templars, it is the nature of her position.

Peace is never an option with those who have been abused for over a thousand finally step up and say enough is enough. Elthina could have stepped in and stopped Meradith before she went to far, but she did nothing. She allowed Meradith to continue her insanity. Having faith is one thing, but using that as a means to make everything right just does not work. You cannot put a bandaid over a gunshot wound and expect it to heal. Elthina power maybe very little for the Mage's but it is no excuse to allow Meradith's actions to go as far as they did.

[Koire]

Cantina wrote...

Elthina could have stepped in and stopped Meradith before she went to far, but she did nothing. She allowed Meradith to continue her insanity.

Just how would she do that exactly? I will repeat my statement, when the Divine opposed the Lord Seeker in a similar situation, this resulted in him refusing to obey her and in the Templars and Seekers being separated from the Chantry. Why do you think the situation would be different in case of Elthina and Meredith?

Modifié par Koire, 04 mars 2012 - 10:27 .

[wendolen]

Alexa_ wrote...

wendolen wrote...

Does anybody else think DA3 in Tevinter sounds interesting? Or are the Tevinters going to remain boogeymen throughout the series?

DA3 in Tevinter would be very interesting! In DA2 we heard so much about it ... and I'm quite sure that my Anders who is on the run with my F/Hawke has fled there ... because in all the conversations in DA2 about Tevinter he was fascinated by it.

Maybe we could see how Feynriel grows up. :happy:

Modifié par wendolen, 05 mars 2012 - 12:14 .

[ladyshamen]

Moto, I agree with your squee! It is a really cute moment. I also love Anders smile when you ask him if he can't think of better things to do after you walk in on Merrill and him talking in the estate. ( I can't remember the exact words ) I'm trying my first rivalmance with Anders. I'm determined to do it this time. I'm such a wienie!

[CuriousArtemis]

 Eghgh ... I would not want to go to Tevinter.  It's a terrible place!  I mean, they keep slaves  I wouldn't mind if part of the game took place in Tevinter, a sort of underground mission though.

[nirvana6794]

Imagine my surprise--I'm away from the BSN for a while, and I come back to find people talking about my fanfic. That's pretty freaking cool, if I do say so myself.

I see we're still discussing the whole "can Anders and Justice be separated debacle", too. We just keep beating that horse to death, don't we?

[smallwhippet]

Fox In The Box wrote...

smallwhippet wrote...

I'm a complete forum novice but I can't resist the temptation any longer.
I'm SO relieved to find that I'm not alone in having found Anders utterly lovely. He was adorable in Awakenings, and, as I mostly travelled with him and Justice, I can't understand how people can complain that his character development was unexpected: all the groundwork was there in their conversations.
The way in which he is presented in DA2 feels utterly plausible and I found his inner struggles deeply affecting. The way in which he has been written seems to suggest that the writers have a great affection for him and they make it very hard not to fall for him.....and the notion that he might not have a chance to be redeemed particularly cruel.
I totally agree with an earlier post about feeling as if I'd been kicked by a horse after the denouement: heart-broken pretty much covers it. As a relative newcomer to RPG (and gaming generally), I never expected to find such psychological depth in a game, or to be forced to make decisions which feel so shattering and have left me seeing world-conflicts and contemporary injustices through a DA prism. Am I taking this too seriously?!
I would be so grateful for some DLC or ANYTHING which helps me get closure!
I NEED MORE ANDERS!

Hey, welcome to the forums, smallwhippet!

I know what you mean and I also found Anders to be a very sympathetic character, though others might not agree. And no, you are definitely not taking it too seriously - this thread is over 2000 pages long filled with discussions about this character that I'm pretty sure didn't just involve kittens and squee.

If you need more Anders there are a couple of good Anders fanfictions that I know of. If you're into that sort of thing.

[smallwhippet]

@Fox in the Box: thank you! Yes please to fanfiction!

[Cantina]

Koire wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Elthina could have stepped in and stopped Meradith before she went to far, but she did nothing. She allowed Meradith to continue her insanity.

Just how would she do that exactly? I will repeat my statement, when the Divine opposed the Lord Seeker in a similar situation, this resulted in him refusing to obey her and in the Templars and Seekers being separated from the Chantry. Why do you think the situation would be different in case of Elthina and Meredith?

I understand not everyone agrees with Ander’s actions, that
is his or her opinion.  I however do
agree with his actions.

It is just not the fault of Elthina. Issues between Templar
and Mage have been going on for a while; beyond Kirkwalll. However, Meredith
made the treatment of Mages far worse in Kirkwall.  Elthina was aware of Meredith’s harsh
injustice towards Mage’s and assumed peace would resolve the conflict. How can
you resolve a conflict when the reason why Mage’s are rebelling is due to the
fact the treatment of Mage’s has gone too far-by Meradith’s hand. Elthina could
have asked for outside help and remove Meredith from her station or hell
anything instead of speeches.

I am not placing the blame on Elthina directly, she is a part
of a system that is broken and refuses to do or acknowledge the treatment of
Mage’s. It seems to me the Chantry is clearly a system of idiots. How can they
assume that allowing this to go on for centuries will not eventually come
crashing down at some point. It takes only one person to step up and say enough
is enough. The Chantry knew this problem was festering for a while and their
action at the time of this festering was to assume it would go away.

The Chantry seeks peace, but sometimes in order to keep that
peace you need to take a direct action in order to keep that peace. Since the Chantry
allowed the abuses for Mage’s to go on as long as it did, they have only
themselves to blame. Taking a direct strike towards the Chantry is the Mage’s
way of saying “enough!” The actions of mages having enough of the treatment was
shown beforehand, but sometimes a more direct message is required-directly
aimed at the heart of a broken system.

It’s one thing to believe in the Chantry, but their
twisted ideas about mages is no more brutal them a mage being abused by a
templar.

Modifié par Cantina, 05 mars 2012 - 08:08 .

[smallwhippet]

I'm interested in the discussion about Elthina - the extent of her responsibility for her own fate etc. I seem to remember Cullen saying that he considers it cruel of her to string the mages along with the notion that they might have any hope of greater freedom.

Modifié par smallwhippet, 05 mars 2012 - 09:12 .

[smallwhippet]

wendolen wrote...

Alexa_ wrote...

wendolen wrote...

Does anybody else think DA3 in Tevinter sounds interesting? Or are the Tevinters going to remain boogeymen throughout the series?

DA3 in Tevinter would be very interesting! In DA2 we heard so much about it ... and I'm quite sure that my Anders who is on the run with my F/Hawke has fled there ... because in all the conversations in DA2 about Tevinter he was fascinated by it.

Maybe we could see how Feynriel grows up. :happy:

I got the impression that something is brewing with Feynriel in the 'Who needs rescuing' quest: he had obviously been practising his somniari arts by getting into the girl's sleeping mind....do you think we'll see more of him?