57020 réponses à ce sujet

[ladyshamen]

Cantina! I approve, 100 %
I was so excited when Merrill mentioned the kittens, I was so sure you could get one for Anders. But NOOOOO!

Edit for ToP: Had no new artwork, but here's a screenie.

Modifié par ladyshamen, 10 mars 2012 - 01:07 .

[Cantina]

Alexa_ wrote...

@Cantina

Ooohh, yes! .... I totally agree with all that! I had the same feelings about Anders
and what the writers did to him in order to fit him to the storyline. That was no
longer Anders ... but only a character named so ... it hurts thinking about it!

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I have seen many writers (even my own mother) fall into the pit fall of having a story but in order to do the story the character from a previous book, game whatever has to be changed in order to achieve the goal.

In my opinion the writers wanted a mage/templar/chantry war. They knew there was a huge fan base for the character Anders and he was not happy with the system.

So in order to achieve this goal: Will ignore what happened to the characters at the end of Awakening, give some b.s. reason as to how Justice and Anders merged. Will also over-shadow the fact that Anders was not stupid and probably would not accept Justice's offer. But hey, will make up another b.s.reason for that too.

Leave a lot plot holes, have Anders go from being a happy go lucky guy, to a depressed teenager that hates everything. On the plus side people will over look these things because you can romance him now. BUT the romance is not really a romance since, he talks endlessly of mages in that too. OH! And since the romance in Origins was romantic, we need to cut that out. I mean we cannot give fans a true romance of Anders. And to complete this character, he no longer has his cat Ser Pounce-Alot. We can say the Wardens made him too soft, he gives it to a friend, but then leaves the order. That makes sense, right?

Fans will be happy, right? Right?



In all seriousness, Anders in DA2 did not make me happy, it made me depressed. Thanks Bioware!

Modifié par Cantina, 10 mars 2012 - 02:00 .

[esper]

What I think is sad is that so many people misunderstand sarcasm and thinks that sarcastic people are happy go lucky. Believe me, they are not.

Da:a Anders was not happy-go-lucky, he was very unstable in every aspect, and he certainly doesn't act like a depressed teenager in da2, but as a man who have been through hell in his life.

[esper]

Alexa_ wrote...

esper wrote...

What I think is sad is that so many people misunderstand sarcasm and thinks that sarcastic people are happy go lucky. Believe me, they are not.

Da:a Anders was not happy-go-lucky, he was very unstable in every aspect, and he certainly doesn't act like a depressed teenager in da2, but as a man who have been through hell in his life.

Maybe he was not a happy-go-lucky-guy in Awakening ... but he was a charming, kidding and smart Ladykiller and still was like this at the end of Awakening ... having already been through hell at that time! The Time when we meet him in Kirkwall is just shortly after Awakening ... but since then he has turned into a depressive mental wreck ... with nothing left over from the guy we knew and loved.

Perhaps that is because he in the mean time fused with Justice who have absolutely no sense of humour and the short story happens in the default scenerio (which is proberly every joined with the wardens scenerios).

[Cantina]

esper wrote...

Alexa_ wrote...

esper wrote...

What I think is sad is that so many people misunderstand sarcasm and thinks that sarcastic people are happy go lucky. Believe me, they are not.

Da:a Anders was not happy-go-lucky, he was very unstable in every aspect, and he certainly doesn't act like a depressed teenager in da2, but as a man who have been through hell in his life.

Maybe he was not a happy-go-lucky-guy in Awakening ... but he was a charming, kidding and smart Ladykiller and still was like this at the end of Awakening ... having already been through hell at that time! The Time when we meet him in Kirkwall is just shortly after Awakening ... but since then he has turned into a depressive mental wreck ... with nothing left over from the guy we knew and loved.

Perhaps that is because he in the mean time fused with Justice who have absolutely no sense of humour and the short story happens in the default scenerio (which is proberly every joined with the wardens scenerios).

I doubt at the time when Anders was "normal" he was not the only one who had problems-muchless ones with the Circle. I beleive he used his sense of humor to mask his anger. I know that when he mergered with Justice it made him unstable and drew out all the anger he had. We see bits of the humurous Anders in DA2 (mostly in Act 2). Whenever someone in the DA world takes in a spirit or a demon there not the same person.

The problem I have is the whole Anders/Justice merger. The writers wanted to make the story work, they wanted Anders to be more then he was, so they did what they did. Since it has been done, no, we won't get the old Anders back. However its still depressing to see how far the writers took Anders and in my opinion they took him too far.

[esper]

Cantina wrote...

esper wrote...

Alexa_ wrote...

esper wrote...

What I think is sad is that so many people misunderstand sarcasm and thinks that sarcastic people are happy go lucky. Believe me, they are not.

Da:a Anders was not happy-go-lucky, he was very unstable in every aspect, and he certainly doesn't act like a depressed teenager in da2, but as a man who have been through hell in his life.

Maybe he was not a happy-go-lucky-guy in Awakening ... but he was a charming, kidding and smart Ladykiller and still was like this at the end of Awakening ... having already been through hell at that time! The Time when we meet him in Kirkwall is just shortly after Awakening ... but since then he has turned into a depressive mental wreck ... with nothing left over from the guy we knew and loved.

Perhaps that is because he in the mean time fused with Justice who have absolutely no sense of humour and the short story happens in the default scenerio (which is proberly every joined with the wardens scenerios).

I doubt at the time when Anders was "normal" he was not the only one who had problems-muchless ones with the Circle. I beleive he used his sense of humor to mask his anger. I know that when he mergered with Justice it made him unstable and drew out all the anger he had. We see bits of the humurous Anders in DA2 (mostly in Act 2). Whenever someone in the DA world takes in a spirit or a demon there not the same person.

The problem I have is the whole Anders/Justice merger. The writers wanted to make the story work, they wanted Anders to be more then he was, so they did what they did. Since it has been done, no, we won't get the old Anders back. However its still depressing to see how far the writers took Anders and in my opinion they took him too far.

I have never denied that he is in a downwards spiral, but I get irritated when people uses expression like happy-go-lucky about person using humor the way Anders did in da:a and say that he is complaining like a teenager when he has every right to be complaining. (That irritates me about Fenris too)
 Anders was never a happy person, in da2 he is just more obvious about it.
As for him not talking about anything but mages even when romanced. Well that is a natural consequence off being merged to Justice. Anders is more cause than human by the end of da2. It is tragic, but such is the consequence of fusing with an ideal.

[Koire]

esper wrote...

Elthina was incompetent, period. And it doens't matter that she would have been a likely target for Meridiths anger, she should have booted Meridith out the moment she refused the nobles to elect a new Vicount.
It doesn't matter that the Chantry have lost control with their templars, they created the system in the first place, and as a well loved Mother, I doubt that many templars in Kirkwall would have sided against Elthina with violence, and then we have just talked about the mage/templar thing and have not touched the Qunari and Petrice situation at all.

Elthina did not create the system, you can't blame her for that just like you can't blame all mages for actions of the magisters. She did not even have much choice when she joined it: she was an orphan raised by the Chantry after her parents had died.
As far as I understand the hierarchy, grand clerics can't directly remove knight-commanders, they are on the same level, so to say. There are knight-divines (or whatever this rank is called) for that.
And I don't doubt that the templars would have sided against her, because.. well, they did side against the Divine.

esper wrote...
Elthina's problem is that she is trying to be something she can't. Elthina can't be neutral because she is a part of the chantry which the templars untill the end of da2 is part of.

This is true.

Modifié par Koire, 10 mars 2012 - 11:12 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...

Elthina was incompetent, period. And it doens't matter that she would have been a likely target for Meridiths anger, she should have booted Meridith out the moment she refused the nobles to elect a new Vicount.
It doesn't matter that the Chantry have lost control with their templars, they created the system in the first place, and as a well loved Mother, I doubt that many templars in Kirkwall would have sided against Elthina with violence, and then we have just talked about the mage/templar thing and have not touched the Qunari and Petrice situation at all.

Elthina did not create the system, you can't blame her for that just like you can't blame all mages for actions of the magisters. She did not even have much choice when she joined it: she was an orphan raised by the Chantry after her parents died.
As far as I understand the hierarachy, grand clerics can't directly remove knight-commanders, they are on the same level, so to say. There are knight-divines (or whatever this rank is called) for that, if I'm not mistaken.
And I don't doubt that the templars would have sided against her, because.. well, they did side against the Divine.

esper wrote...
Elthina's problem is that she is trying to be something she can't. Elthina can't be neutral because she is a part of the chantry which the templars untill the end of da2 is part of.

This is true.

Elthina is imcompetent because she is the part of the system that has a resonisibilty and fails to live up to live up to that responsibility more than once.
She should have reacted on Mother Petrice, escpiacally when Hawke comes with her own blasted seal, Sebastian and the guard captain and tells her that something is off. She doesn't pretendt to start an investigation.
She should have contacted the Divine or removed Meridith the second Meridith begang to block the nobles election for a new Vicount. Meridith had no right to do that, and Elthina is the person Meridith answers to as Elthina is the Divine's representation and if she can't do it herself she should at least contact her superior.
Then there is the whole conflict Elthina should have once again stepped in long before Orsino felt it necessary to appeal directly to the nobles and if she didn't feel that she could step in she should have contacted the Divine. She even had the opportunity served on a silver platter but she didn't take it.

And you are right, I can't blame the mages for Tevinter, but I can blame the magister's and in your comparision Elthina is a magister. She is an active and high ranking member of the system that surpresses large porpulation group and as such she is responisble.

Just as I would blame any magister that summoned a demon that then got out of control I blame the chantry for the templars. If they can't control them it is because they themself gave them too much power. But Elthina doesn't even bloody try, even if it is her duty.

[Koire]

esper wrote...
She should have contacted the Divine or removed Meridith the second Meridith begang to block the nobles election for a new Vicount. Meridith had no right to do that, and Elthina is the person Meridith answers to as Elthina is the Divine's representation and if she can't do it herself she should at least contact her superior.
Then there is the whole conflict Elthina should have once again stepped in long before Orsino felt it necessary to appeal directly to the nobles and if she didn't feel that she could step in she should have contacted the Divine. [

There is a hint that she contacted the Divine, Elthina says "The Divine has heard my protests already".
I think either you or me are getting the hierarchy wrong. Elthina is a superior to revered mothers. Knight-divines are superiors to Meredith. The Divine is a superior to both Elthina and Knight-divines. I would call this portion of DA lore murky at best, but this is how it seems to be given this (look up "Knight Divine"). If my understanding is correct, Elthina had no power to directly remove Meredith. She could only voice her formal approval or disapproval.

Modifié par Koire, 10 mars 2012 - 11:29 .

[wendolen]

ugh, my post ate itself while I was trying to get spoiler-blocking text colors right. Sorry, all, nothing to see here.

Modifié par wendolen, 10 mars 2012 - 11:31 .

[wendolen]

Something that really jumped out at me on my latest playthrough: During Tranquility, Anders says that it's against Chantry law to perform the Rite of Tranquility on any mage who has passed their Harrowing. This is restated a few times in DA: Asunder. There doesn't seem to be any room for the sort of "Oh, well if she had a good reason" dodges that Elthina resorts to when questioned about Meredith's use of the Rite.

So she's worse than incompetent, she's abetting blatant flouting of Chantry law.

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...
She should have contacted the Divine or removed Meridith the second Meridith begang to block the nobles election for a new Vicount. Meridith had no right to do that, and Elthina is the person Meridith answers to as Elthina is the Divine's representation and if she can't do it herself she should at least contact her superior.
Then there is the whole conflict Elthina should have once again stepped in long before Orsino felt it necessary to appeal directly to the nobles and if she didn't feel that she could step in she should have contacted the Divine. [

There is a hint that she contacted the Divine, Elthina says "The Divine has heard my protests already".
I think either you or me are getting the hierarchy wrong. Elthina is a superior to revered mothers. Knight-divines are superiors to Meredith. The Divine is a superior to both Elthina and Knight-divines. I would call this portion of DA lore murky at best, but this is how it seems to be given this (look up "Knight Divine"). If my understanding is correct, Elthina had no power to remove Meredith at all. She could only voice her formal approval or disapproval.

The Templars answerd to the Mothers and espcially the Grand Cleric who is the Divine's (i believe the english word is) proxy.
The Grand Cleric have to autorise an annulment and the grand cleric insert the Knight-Captain for the circle in the region they are grand-cleric in. Meridith was specifically inserted by the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall as Knight-Captain (after her first coup) and can be removed as Knight-Captain by the Grand Cleric.
 
The templars themself also have an intern order, and the seekers proberly have one too, but none the less as the Divine's proxy she did have the authority to do so.

[Koire]

@wendolen
Wiki is written by users, like you and me. You don't even need to register there in order to edit the pages.
The ending of Asunder is a cliff hanger: it is unclear whether Lambert is alive or dead, or what comes next. But the letter was sent - this is a fact. And since Cassandra says "not all of us desire war", it is reasonable to assume that at least some seekers&templars desire it = went rogue.

Modifié par Koire, 10 mars 2012 - 11:37 .

[esper]

wendolen wrote...

Something that really jumped out at me on my latest playthrough: During Tranquility, Anders says that it's against Chantry law to perform the Rite of Tranquility on any mage who has passed their Harrowing. This is restated a few times in DA: Asunder. There doesn't seem to be any room for the sort of "Oh, well if she had a good reason" dodges that Elthina resorts to when questioned about Meredith's use of the Rite.

So she's worse than incompetent, she's abetting blatant flouting of Chantry law.

You can question Elthina about Meridith's use of tranquility?

[Koire]

esper wrote...
and the grand cleric insert the Knight-Captain for the circle in the region they are grand-cleric in. Meridith was specifically inserted by the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall as Knight-Captain (after her first coup) and can be removed as Knight-Captain by the Grand Cleric.

Is there any proof to that somewhere in the codex or in the dialogues? Because I can't recall any. AFAIR Meredith led the templars after Perrin killed the previous knight-commander, and then Elthina formally approved this new appointment.

Upd "The acting knight-commander was arrested and executed, and Meredith led a group of templars into the heart of the Keep to capture Threnhold. Meredith was subsequently elevated to her current position." (Codex)

Modifié par Koire, 10 mars 2012 - 11:50 .

[Koire]

esper wrote...
You can question Elthina about Meridith's use of tranquility?

Oh, Elthina has a lot of hidden lines. I've been writing some of them down here, I've linked that already)

Modifié par Koire, 10 mars 2012 - 11:50 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...
and the grand cleric insert the Knight-Captain for the circle in the region they are grand-cleric in. Meridith was specifically inserted by the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall as Knight-Captain (after her first coup) and can be removed as Knight-Captain by the Grand Cleric.

Is there any proof to that somewhere in the codex or in the dialogues? Because I can't recall any. AFAIR Meredith led the templars after Perrin killed the previous knight-commander, and then Elthina formally approved this new appointment.

Upd "The acting knight-commander was arrested and executed, and Meredith led a group of templars into the heart of the Keep to capture Threnhold. Meredith was subsequently elevated to her current position." (Codex)

I believe it was from da:o and the hiarachy somewhere

[Koire]

esper wrote...
I believe it was from da:o and the hiarachy somewhere

This one? Nope, it says nothing about relations between the templars and the Chantry. In fact, none does. We know that ROA is invoked by grand clerics, all the rest is clouded in mystery: we can only make assumptions.

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 12:07 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...
I believe it was from da:o and the hiarachy somewhere

This one? Nope, it says nothing about relations between the templars and the Chantry.

Greigore definitly mention the annulement rule. That is the whole reason he haven't annulled the circle. Thus he answers to the grand cleric not the Knight-Divine (I also think you meant Knight-Vigiliant, but whatever...) 
Varnell answers to Petrice.
Anders mentions templars being stationed in the chantry, and others more reliable sourced do too.
Cullen says that Elthina is cruel because she have to side with the templars
Elthina directly says my templars in one of her hidden quotes.
We see the templars being stated in the chantry many times in da:o.
The chantry suplies the templars wiht lyrium.
In the short story the chantry employs a templar into the wardens.
Alistars says that the grand-cleric won't let him (a templar recruit go). Meaning she have command.

[Koire]

esper wrote...
Greigore definitly mention the annulement rule. That is the whole reason he haven't annulled the circle. Thus he answers to the grand cleric not the Knight-Divine (I also think you meant Knight-Vigiliant, but whatever...) 
Varnell answers to Petrice.
Anders mentions templars being stationed in the chantry, and others more reliable sourced do too.
Cullen says that Elthina is cruel because she have to side with the templars
Elthina directly says my templars in one of her hidden quotes.
We see the templars being stated in the chantry many times in da:o.
The chantry suplies the templars wiht lyrium.
In the short story the chantry employs a templar into the wardens.
Alistars says that the grand-cleric won't let him (a templar recruit go). Meaning she have command.

1. Re annulment - it is the only thing directly written in the codex, but it does not automatically mean that grand clerics can appoint or dismiss knight-commanders. Same goes for lyrium etc.
2. Varnell is Petrice's bodyguard, and by Act 2 he is also a former templar - he leaves the Order; he did not "obey" her but rather "followed" her
3. Templars live in Circle towers, this is described in details in Asunder. These bastards occupy top floors In Kirkwall that were the Gallows.
4. Cullen said "It is cruel how she gives them false hope" or something like that, meaning that there was no hope (because he probably knew of ROA)

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 12:33 .

[Cantina]

I have not read "Asunder" so I cannot use any thing out of that book.

The problem I see is Elthina has more power then she claims she has. She just does not want to use that power because she knows if she does uses that power; it will show she does not approve of the Templars methods and would give reason for Meradith to become more violent then she already has.

Oh sure, Elthina makes claims that she does not approve of Meradith's methods, but does nothing to prevent them from getting worse. She constantly sides with the Templars to save her own ass.

If your going to keep siding with the Templars all it does is show the mages you approve of Meradith's actions no matter how much you try to claim you don't.  

Elthina view on a "peaceful soultion" does more harm then good. Sooner or later one side or the other is going to break from having enough. And even if she did not die in the Chantry destruction, I have no doubt Meradith would have killed her anyways.

I still cannot blame Anders for what he did and I could not kill him for an act I agreed with him doing. The Grand Cleric needed to be remove. At least like Anders said, the mages have a chance to fight instead of cowering in a corner waiting for the ROT or death.

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...
Greigore definitly mention the annulement rule. That is the whole reason he haven't annulled the circle. Thus he answers to the grand cleric not the Knight-Divine (I also think you meant Knight-Vigiliant, but whatever...) 
Varnell answers to Petrice.
Anders mentions templars being stationed in the chantry, and others more reliable sourced do too.
Cullen says that Elthina is cruel because she have to side with the templars
Elthina directly says my templars in one of her hidden quotes.
We see the templars being stated in the chantry many times in da:o.
The chantry suplies the templars wiht lyrium.
In the short story the chantry employs a templar into the wardens.
Alistars says that the grand-cleric won't let him (a templar recruit go). Meaning she have command.

1. Re annulment - it is the only thing directly written in the codex, but it does not automatically mean that grand clerics can appoint or dismiss knight-commanders. Same goes for lyrium etc.
2. Varnell is Petrice's bodyguard, and by Act 2 he is also a former templar - he leaves the Order; he did not "obey" her but rather "followed" her
3. Templars live in Circle towers, this is described in details in Asunder. These bastards occupy top floors In Kirkwall that were the Gallows.
4. Cullen said "It is cruel how she gives them false hope" or something like that, meaning that there was no hope (because he probably knew of ROA)

The Alistar things does mean they have control over the recruits and the templars too.
The same does Greogior's annulement.
Varnell does not leave his order untill act two and act under the illussion that Elthina has sanction his actions (her seal). The templars live in the circles, yes, but they also guard the chantry. They are the chantry's known military arm and thus is also stationed in the important Chantrys (we have seen this in both games).
Cullen means that it is false hope, because Elthina is the chantry and thus the templars as well.
The templars rebelled against the chantry in the end which means that they were under the chantrys control.

[Koire]

Esper, I am not arguing that the Chantry has absolutely no control over the templars. Surely it has. But there are varying levels of control, and as far as I understand, most chantry members can "strongly recommend" something to the templars, but can not "issue direct orders", apart from ROA. 

Lord Seeker Lambert is thinking about the Divine:
"Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?" ©

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 10:24 .