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[Cantina]

Koire wrote...

Esper, I am not arguing that the Chantry has absolutely no control over the templars. Surely it has. But there are varying levels of control, and as far as I understand, most chantry members can "strongly recommend" something to the templars, but can not "issue direct orders", apart from ROA. 

Lord Seeker Lambert is thinking about the Divine:
"Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?" ©

Well with that being said, I can see now even more why Elthina did not want to get her hands dirty or ask for help.

That just further cements my view that what Anders did was the correct thing.

[esper]

Koire wrote...

Esper, I am not arguing that the Chantry has absolutely no control over the templars. Surely it has. But there are varying levels of control, and as far as I understand, most chantry members can "strongly recommend" something to the templars, but can not "issue direct orders", apart from ROA. 

Lord Seeker Lambert is thinking about the Divine:
"Without the templars, the Chantry was toothless - nothing more than a bunch of old women armed only with words. What would she do? Try to convince the people, after ages of teaching them mages were to be feared and contained, that now everything was different?" ©

The Chantry control the templars. As in directly order them to something. The templars (and the seekers apperently) are the Chantry's military branch. It is said in mulitpel dialogs. It is not an strong recommendation. It is an direct order. Which is also why the templars rebel against the chantry after da2. They don't like their orders anymore. If it was only a strong recommendation the templars as an organisation wouldn't need to rebel.

The chantry also inserted and spefically recruited the templars after fanatism. Which means that the chantry is to blame for the fact that they can't reform their own templars because they have given a hold bunch of fanatical, drug addicts swords, tell them they have a holy duty and then have the guts to act surprised when said fanatical, drugs addict somehow don't like the ideas of reforming their holy duty.

 

[Koire]

The Divine helped the mages, and the Seekers knew it. They wanted to replace her for somebody more agreeable, this is the reason why they rebelled in the end.
Esper, I am not arguing that the Chantry is "not to blame" for the overall situation, relax) I just think that things are a little bit more complicated than you imagine. I disagree with this, however:

As in directly order them to something.

There is no direct proof to that, only indirect hints and speculations. You assume that it is true, I assume that it is false. Thus we draw different conclusions. Why can't a military branch be independent from the main organization to a degree?
Lets agree to disagree for now) I hope DA3 will shed more light on this subject.

PS Really, in the last two weeks I've been told on BSN that if I don't like blood magic and deals with demons, I automatically hate Merrill, if I support Anders, I'm willing to kill 50,000 innocents in future, and if I think the Chantry has less than 100% control over templars, I claim that the Chantry is not to blame for anything.. why such black-and-white thinking? The game is so gorgeously grey. 

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 06:39 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

The Divine helped the mages, and the Seekers knew it. They wanted to replace her for somebody more agreeable, this is the reason why they rebelled in the end.
Esper, I am not arguing that the Chantry is "not to blame" for the overall situation, relax) I just think that things are a little bit more complicated than you imagine. I disagree with this, however:

As in directly order them to something.

There is no direct proof to that, only indirect hints and speculations. You assume that it is true, I assume that it is false. Thus we draw different conclusions. Why can't a military branch be independent from the main organization to a degree?
Lets agree to disagree for now) I hope DA3 will shed more light on this subject.

PS Really, in the last two weeks I've been told on BSN that if I don't like blood magic, I automatically hate Merrill, if I support Anders, I'm willing to kill 50,000 innocents in future, and if I think the Chantry has less than 100% control over templars, the Chantry is completely innocent.. why such black-and-white thinking? The game is so gorgeously grey. 

I have never never accused you of the bolded, I am merely debatting your perception of the templars and the chantry. The last bit of my former post was merely to state why the templars are rebelling not to accuse you of being a templar supportor.

There is direct proof. The game states in a  lot of dialogs that the chantry recruits the templars, meaning they are in control. The templars rebel from the chantry's control it is directly stated so at the end of da2. They do so partly because of Asunder, because the Divine 'helped' (I really disagree with this perception, but let's discus one thing at a time and it is enough that the templars percieved it as help) the mages. The circle system is an army that the chantry controls. The mages and the templars are that army (the mages unwilling so). The chantry used them in exalthed marches. Post-da2 and Asunder both group rebell because both groups do not want to take the Chantry's order any more. But up untill that point the chantry were the organisation ordering the templars. Yes, they made the system too weak and convulted with too many people having a say, to make their own control effective, as in they put all their firepowers in the very things they hoped to order which made it do-able for the templars to rebel. But untill da2 the templars were the chantrys army which means the Divine was in control. That she can't enforce the control once a disagrement shows itself, because the chantry have been utterly stupid in their own creation of the system is another aspect which is irrelevant to the Elthina discussion, because both the Divine and Elthina still have responsibilithy to attempt it. I don't doubt that Meridith would attempt to kill Elthina i her madness, I seriously doubt her templars would have followed her. Her own second-in-command were having his doubts and the rumours about her were growing increasingly worse. Elthina was beloved, most of the templars would not have followed Meridith if she went there, because most of them don't follow her when she attacks the champion who bloody sides with the mages.

[Koire]

esper wrote...
That she can't enforce the control once a disagrement shows itself, because the chantry have been utterly stupid in their own creation of the system is another aspect which is irrelevant to the Elthina discussion, because both the Divine and Elthina still have responsibilithy to attempt it.

The last line is something I can agree with. And I think she did attempt it by appealing to the Divine: I wonder if the advice to leave actually meant that the Divine's reply was "No."

Also:
Sebastian: Do you have many dealings with the knight-commander?
Aveline: Please don't start with that. I'm not a templar. I'm the captain of the guard.  We arrest burglars. The knight-commander never gives us a thought.
Sebastian: Grand Cleric Elthina is worried about her. She's stopped taking the Chantry's advice.
Aveline: Her jobs not easy. Certain... forces in the city are allied against her.

Elthina would not go further than that, however, because... "I can not turn on my templars."

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 07:16 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...
That she can't enforce the control once a disagrement shows itself, because the chantry have been utterly stupid in their own creation of the system is another aspect which is irrelevant to the Elthina discussion, because both the Divine and Elthina still have responsibilithy to attempt it.

The last line is something I can agree with. And I think she did attempt it by appealing to the Divine: I wonder if the advice to leave actually meant that the Divine's reply was "No".

Also:
Sebastian: Do you have many dealings with the knight-commander?
Aveline: Please don't start with that. I'm not a templar. I'm the captain of the guard.  We arrest burglars. The knight-commander never gives us a thought.
Sebastian: Grand Cleric Elthina is worried about her. She's stopped taking the Chantry's advice.
Aveline: Her jobs not easy. Certain... forces in the city are allied against her.

That is about Anders if he is in the conversation he comments on it. And Elthina have not attempted it, in fact she seems to have done the opposite as she during Sebasitians quest seems to hint having trying to convince the Divine that nothing too serious in the city is going on, that is the whole point of the quest. (I know she is afraid of an exalthed march, but it still does not excuse it, because the situation in Kirkwall seemed from the chantry's point of view is dire and out of control)

[Koire]

She says "I hope drastic measures won't be required". I think she speaks of ROA, but since Sebastian has no knowledge of it having been requested, he assumes it is an exalted march. I'll link my post in another thread so as not to write it once more: http://social.biowar...0734/61#9680745

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 07:24 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

She says "I hope drastic measures won't be required". I think she speaks of ROA, but since Sebastian has no knowledge of it having been requested, he assumes it is an exalted march. I'll link my post in another thread so as not to write it once more: http://social.biowar...0734/61#9680745

No she speaks of an exalthed march, because she answers Sebastians remark about it. If she was afraid of an annulment she could simply say no, because Meridith requires Elthinas permission for that.

Modifié par esper, 11 mars 2012 - 07:32 .

[Koire]

Err, she did say so, somewhere between Acts 2 and 3, and then Meredith sent for the permission to the Divine. I thought it is easy to deduct from what Karras says. 

Actually:

David Gaider wrote...
So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

Source

I think she was secretive about it because you don't go shouting from the rooftops "we are discussing the possibility to kill all mages", these are Chantry's internal affairs, so to say

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

Err, she did, and Meredith then sent for the permission to the Divine. I thought it is easy to deduct from what Karras says.
Actually:

David Gaider wrote...

The Angry One wrote...
Please show us where the Right of Annulment can only be granted if evidence is presented in a court of law or something rather than a judgement call on the Knight-Commander's part which can be supported or denied by the Grand Cleric.

So long as the Grand Cleric was alive and refused Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment, Meredith's only option was to appeal to the Divine. Once the Grand Cleric was dead, and no immediate successor in evidence, Meredith had the legal authority she needed.

This does not mean the Divine could not theoretically call her to the mat later on for choosing wrongly... and one could argue that she was morally obligated to wait for the Divine's answer, but she certainly wasn't legally obligated to do so. Beyond that, one can conjecture until the cows come home with regards to what the repercussions of such a decision would be.

Source

Your point being? Elthina doesn't know that Meridith has sent for an annulment directly to the Divine and if she had any sense of responsibilty she would have informed the Divine of the fact that Meridith was loosing control which means that the Divine would proberly not take Meridith's request to heart. It is an exalthed march she fears (or at least more army int he street) she directly comments on this when Sebastian asked if the Divine really would do that.

[Koire]

esper wrote...
Your point being? Elthina doesn't know that Meridith has sent for an annulment directly to the Divine and if she had any sense of responsibilty she would have informed the Divine of the fact that Meridith was loosing control which means that the Divine would proberly not take Meridith's request to heart. It is an exalthed march she fears (or at least more army int he street) she directly comments on this when Sebastian asked if the Divine really would do that.

Do you think she doesn't? I bet she does. She is a cunning old fox who knew everything about Petrice, for instance. Meredith, Orsino, Elthina, Cullen and Karras all seem to know. And Hawke. And Anders. Sebastian doesn't know, though.
My point is: she knew and she informed the Divine, the Divine got two conflicting reports (from Meredith and Elthina) and sent Leliana to find out who is right. This is my best guess.
Nope, not directly. She says "were no people harmed during the exalted marches?"

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 08:00 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...
Your point being? Elthina doesn't know that Meridith has sent for an annulment directly to the Divine and if she had any sense of responsibilty she would have informed the Divine of the fact that Meridith was loosing control which means that the Divine would proberly not take Meridith's request to heart. It is an exalthed march she fears (or at least more army int he street) she directly comments on this when Sebastian asked if the Divine really would do that.

Do you think she doesn't? I bet she does. Meredith, Orsino, Elthina, Cullen and Karras all seem to know. And Hawke. And Anders. Sebastian doesn't know, though.
My point is: she knew and she informed the Divine, the Divine got two conflicting reports (from Meredith and Elthina) and sent Leliana to find out who is right. This is my best guess.
Nope, not directly. She says "were no people harmed during the exalted marches?"

Anders doesn't know. (Unless he is in Hawke's party). He just assummes that Meridith wants to annul the Circle which everyone assumes. Cullen is her next incommand.Orsino doesn't seem to know either, he just fears that Elthina would carve into Meridith's request.

And by mentioning the exalted marches and Sebastian mention people getting hurt by being near it is pretty clear they are not talking about an annulment because the circle is on it's own island. And annulement would not harm the city. The only reason it does when it comes is because a large portion of both mages and templars are heading to the chantry when it is blown up.

[Koire]

"For if it comes to war, it is the people of this city who will lose." Can't war result from ROA? (it did, actually)
These are speculations, they can be true, they can be false, we'll never know. It is not even important whether i.e. Orsino knew or guessed. But it would be strange if the Divine received a request from Meredith and did not contact Elthina, so I'm pretty sure Elthina knew.

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 08:15 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

"For if it comes to war, it is the people of this city who will lose." Can't war result from ROA? (it did, actually)
These are speculations, they can be true, they can be false, we'll never know. It is not even important whether i.e. Orsino knew or guessed. But it would be strange if the Divine received a request from Meredith and did not contact Elthina, so I'm pretty sure Elthina knew.

Had it been a stanard ROA war would not have ensured as it would never had gotten out. War comes because the ROA of Kirkwall shows the mages that they can even be killed for the crime of another at anytime, meaning that it shatteres the last bit of of security some of the mages might have told themself they had.

[Koire]

esper wrote...
Had it been a stanard ROA war would not have ensured as it would never had gotten out. War comes because the ROA of Kirkwall shows the mages that they can even be killed for the crime of another at anytime, meaning that it shatteres the last bit of of security some of the mages might have told themself they had.

Yep, I agree. But if you are right and the Divine was considering an option of an exalted march instead of ROA, don't you think it was even less wise to tell her that there are problems in the city compared to the situation when she was merely (I can't believe I'm writing that)).. merely thinking about ROA?

[Cantina]

I think the bottom line is the ROA was going to happen even IF Anders did not step in. Anders stepped in and sped up the process. The longer things went on in Kirkwall, the more mages would have suffered. Elthina was protecting her templars because without them, the Chantry would fall apart.

Elthina had the oppurtunity to seek outside help, but refused. she was aware of Meradith's growing problem on the mage's. She was aware that her life has been threatened before, but choose to do nothing.

As Anders said in game to Sebastian:

• Anders: How can you keep standing up for her?
• Sebastian: Who?
• Anders: That doddering old biddy of a Grand Cleric.
• Sebastian: How dare you! Elthina is everything a grand cleric should be. She's holy, wise—
• Anders: Spineless... hesitant. She's clay in Meredith's hands.
• Sebastian: In the face of danger, sometimes the bravest thing is to stand back and trust that the Maker will see justice done.
• Anders: Well if doing nothing sums up your religion,
  then Elthina is perfect. Personally, I'd prefer a Chantry that favors
  action over sloth.

If any chantry is willing to sit back and watch the lit fuse get close and close to the dynomite, they have only themselves to blame. Mages have suffered the abuses from Templars for a thousand years, at some point, the system is bound to fall apart if you allow injustice to continue and to do nothing about it.


I just finished the game again and laughed my ass off when the chantry blew up. Too bad I could not throw a dagger in the back of Sebastian's head as he walked away, for his stupidty and above all threating my future husband.

[Koire]

Cantina wrote...
She was aware that her life has been threatened before, but choose to do nothing.

She:
-rejected initial Meredith's requests for ROA
-did not allow Meredith to "clap Orsino in irons and make him an example" during the Act 3 opening scene
-opposed the idea of ROA or an exalted march (which is worse) when she asked Hawke to speak with Leliana

This was not enough, but it is not "nothing".

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 09:09 .

[Cantina]

Koire wrote...

Cantina wrote...
She was aware that her life has been threatened before, but choose to do nothing.

She:
-rejected initial Meredith's requests for ROA
-did not allow Meredith to "clap Orsino in irons and make him an example" during the Act 3 opening scene
-opposed the idea of ROA or an exalted march (which is worse) when she asked Hawke to speak with Leliana

This was not enough, but it is not "nothing".

1st....she rejected the ROA because Meradith had no grounds to invoke it. Plus by invoking such an act without grounds would have caused mages to rebel.

2. She did not allow Orsino to be clapped in irons because of his station AND since there was an audience and other mages in Kirkwall, would have again, given the mages a reason to rebel.

3. She did not want that because she assumed she could solve the problem with cookies, tea and a pat on people's back.

I still say it is nothing. Just because you make ****** ant moves towards peace, is not considered something. When a war is brewing, trying to show favor to both sides, is not exactly the best course of action. You are then allowing Meradith's actions to contiue and allow the Mages to suffer. All this does is make the situation worse, not better.

[Koire]

Cantina wrote...
I just finished the game again and laughed my ass off when the chantry blew up. Too bad I could not throw a dagger in the back of Sebastian's head as he walked away, for his stupidty and above all threating my future husband.

We don't know who was in that building, may be a templar was somebody's caring brother, or that Chantry initiate - a nice kind girl. I find it odd that many people are talking either about Elthina and her guilt or innocence, or about by-standers, and few even consider that those templars and priests inside could deserve to live. I'm an atheist, they say we don't hold moral ground, but I just.. can't laugh in this moment, I feel so sorry that it had to happen, sorry for all who died.

Re last post
Cantina, we don't know why she did it. We know only that she did. I assume her motives were less.. vicious)

Modifié par Koire, 11 mars 2012 - 09:12 .

[Cantina]

Koire wrote...

Cantina wrote...
I just finished the game again and laughed my ass off when the chantry blew up. Too bad I could not throw a dagger in the back of Sebastian's head as he walked away, for his stupidty and above all threating my future husband.

We don't know who was in that building, may be a templar was somebody's caring brother, or that Chantry initiate - a nice kind girl. I find it odd that many people are talking either about Elthina and her guilt or innocence, or about by-standers, and few even consider that those templars and priests inside could deserve to live. I'm an atheist, they say we don't hold moral ground, but I just.. can't laugh in this moment, I feel so sorry that it had to happen, sorry for all who died.

Re last post
Cantina, we don't know why she did it. We know only that she did. I assume her motives were less.. vicious)

I have no ties to religion in real life. Even so, I don't let effect my choices in game.

I tend to look at it from a larger prespective. No one is truly innocent. For a thousand years mages have been abused and tortured. Hell some were even made tranquil when they were not a danger to anyone or killed.

What happened to the Chantry is considered justification for every mage that has suffered over those thousand years. It certainly does not balance out the scale, but at least its a dent.

I just feel what Anders did was right and will continue to support his choice. I don't feel sorry for all those who died. I feel more sorry for the mages who are/were treated like pisoners.

If people view Anders actions as the wrong choice, so be it, I cannot change that. I however cannot stand the Templars, The Chantry and how Mages are treated.

Modifié par Cantina, 11 mars 2012 - 09:35 .

[Cantina]

Bleh double post

Modifié par Cantina, 11 mars 2012 - 09:34 .

[esper]

Koire wrote...

esper wrote...
Had it been a stanard ROA war would not have ensured as it would never had gotten out. War comes because the ROA of Kirkwall shows the mages that they can even be killed for the crime of another at anytime, meaning that it shatteres the last bit of of security some of the mages might have told themself they had.

Yep, I agree. But if you are right and the Divine was considering an option of an exalted march instead of ROA, don't you think it was even less wise to tell her that there are problems in the city compared to the situation when she was merely (I can't believe I'm writing that)).. merely thinking about ROA?

Not from the chantry's point of view. Elthina was a good hearted person but as a high ranked chantry leader she was a failure.

Mind you I think that the chantry is fundementally wrong, but that is not this discussion. As a high ranking chantry leader with responsiblility of her region Elthina failed.

[esper]

Koire wrote...

Cantina wrote...
I just finished the game again and laughed my ass off when the chantry blew up. Too bad I could not throw a dagger in the back of Sebastian's head as he walked away, for his stupidty and above all threating my future husband.

We don't know who was in that building, may be a templar was somebody's caring brother, or that Chantry initiate - a nice kind girl. I find it odd that many people are talking either about Elthina and her guilt or innocence, or about by-standers, and few even consider that those templars and priests inside could deserve to live. I'm an atheist, they say we don't hold moral ground, but I just.. can't laugh in this moment, I feel so sorry that it had to happen, sorry for all who died.

Re last post
Cantina, we don't know why she did it. We know only that she did. I assume her motives were less.. vicious)

 I never laugh at death. I think that Anders made the necessary deciosion and blewing the chantry up was needed, but to celebrate their deaths is wrong. It is sad they died. Sad but necessary.

[wendolen]

Another thought re: templars going rogue -- where are they going to get their lyrium? (Are Seekers also hooked on lyrium? Never made clear, I believe, but it seems likely.)
Seems like Justinia might get a lot of regretful rogue templars coming back once the DTs set in. Unless Lambert planned it so far in advance that he had stores/another source for them? (Actually, given the scene where he supplies Ser Evangeline for the journey, maybe he does.)

[esper]

wendolen wrote...

Another thought re: templars going rogue -- where are they going to get their lyrium? (Are Seekers also hooked on lyrium? Never made clear, I believe, but it seems likely.)
Seems like Justinia might get a lot of regretful rogue templars coming back once the DTs set in. Unless Lambert planned it so far in advance that he had stores/another source for them? (Actually, given the scene where he supplies Ser Evangeline for the journey, maybe he does.)

Lyrium smugglers of course. There are a lot of lyrium smugglers already.