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[Always Alice]

Cantina wrote…
I find it amusing how those who chose to stay with Anders
are easily seen as “monsters”.

Please indicate where I called anyone who chose to stay with Anders a “monster,” because all I see in my comment is myself expressing confusion. Does this comment of yours have any actual basis or are you just projecting?

Perhaps I was not clear on my opinion earlier. Believe
me I am fully aware of what betrayal is and what Anders did is not betrayal unless
those with a weak stomach will view it as such.

Yes, clearly it is unreasonable to consider blowing up a building behind a person’s back after lying about it to be a betrayal, especially when it results in destruction, chaos, and the deaths of many.

because he was not sure how Hawke would react furthermore he was protecting
her/him. This man was willing give up everything to set mages free, his life,
love, everything.

How is Anders “protecting” Hawke? He makes her an accomplice.

How could you hate someone who was being so selfless?

Selfless?

He approves when you give Fenris back to Danarius.

In Awakening, he wants the PC to side with the Baroness because it would be the best chance of getting out of the Fade.

He takes petty swipes at Aveline and Merrill, insulting her dead husband’s sex life and telling Merrill the world would be better off without her.

He is visibly jealous and catty if Hawke romances Fenris or Merrill (I swear, hearing some of his dialogue was like reliving high school)

He willingly blows up a building in Hightown to destroy the chance of compromise, knowing that there is a good possibility the mages will all die, including Hawke’s sister Bethany (if she’s in the circle).

Anders may do good things, but he is far from selfless.

Oh honey, <laughs> if I ever had a relationship that was one hundred percent
honest, I would ask someone to pinch me because I must be dreaming. Everyone
lies no matter how much you proclaim your feelings towards someone.

We're not talking about some guy who says that he loves your favorite movie but secretly despises it. We're talking about a guy who involves you in a plot to blow up a building in a highly populated area of town. It's not so much the fact that he lies, but the gravity of the lie along with the passive-aggressive manipulation if you show hesitation that irritates people.

I still refuse to call Anders a terrorist,
invoke as many definitions as you must in order to try to make people see he is
one, when clearly that is a stretch and the word seems to have no place in
Thedas.

How is it “clearly” a stretch? He blows up a building in a building for a politically motivated reason, killing a bunch of innocent people. If you don’t want to refer to him as such then fine, but it’s not “clearly a stretch.”

Alessa-00 wrote...
Sir Peter Ustinov, a great actor and wise man, once stated: "War is the terrorism of the powerful and terrorism is the war of the powerless." ... something to think about ...

And this is a quote from the current prime minister of Israel,which I feel also give us something to think about:

"When I say that terrorism is war against civilization, I may be met by the objection that terrorists are often idealists pursuing worthy ultimate aims -- national or regional independence, and so forth. I do not accept this argument. I cannot agree that a terrorist can ever be an idealist, or that the objects sought can ever justify terrorism. The impact of terrorism, not merely on individual nations, but on humanity as a whole, is intrinsically evil, necessarily evil and wholly evil."
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU

One thing I really do love about the game is how much discussion it gets going. Over 2000 pages for one character...wow.

Modifié par Always Alice, 11 avril 2012 - 04:30 .

[Koire]

@Always Alice


Re your replies to me - I think it's safest to agree to disagree, because the conclusions we draw are all based on assumptions. What would the Divine do? Would Elthina be able to hold the line forever? What will the templars do? What will Anders do afterwards? etc
Time will tell

Re some of your replies to Cantina (I agree with the rest though).

How is Anders “protecting” Hawke? He makes her an accomplice.

He is actually trying to protect Hawke - in his own way. He needs help, but he doesn't want Hawke to share the responsibility. If he said to Meredith and Orsino: "Hey, and here is Hawke, (s)he helped me," I would probably be utterly angry But he takes all the blame.
Not that I think a betrayal of trust is a good thing in the first place.

Selfless?
He approves when you give Fenris back to Danarius.
In Awakening, he wants the PC to side with the Baroness because it would be the best chance of getting out of the Fade.
He takes petty swipes at Aveline and Merrill, insulting her dead husband’s sex life and telling Merrill the world would be better off without her.
He is visibly jealous and catty if Hawke romances Fenris or Merrill (I swear, hearing some of his dialogue was like reliving high school)
He willingly blows up a building in Hightown to destroy the chance of compromise, knowing that there is a good possibility the mages will all die, including Hawke’s sister Bethany (if she’s in the circle).
Anders may do good things, but he is far from selfless.

He is very human. That's the major reason I like the character. 
If you tell him to run for his life when you first meet him in Awakening, he returns and explains that he wanted to help despite the danger of being caught by the templars.
Also, both Anders and Justice approve of saving Amaranthine, the third companion who does that being Sigrun. All the rest advise the Warden-Commandor to abandon the city.
He is healing the refugees for free.
The first time he meets Hawke, he offers to trade the maps for help to his friend, not for something for himself.
Then there is this "Take him and try, I'm asking you," and how he tries to support Hawke in the following cutscene.
Between acts 1 and 2 he is risking his life to help the Circle mages flee, and at that he tells he was not attacking the templars openly.
Again he asks Hawke to investigate the Tranquil solution for the Circle mages, not for himself.
And he is crushed after the scene with Ella.
He is genuinly sorry there isn't much he can do for Bartrand, and he can't help Leandra.
Even his last act is something he believes is necessary for the others. He's an apostate and has something the other mages do not - relative freedom, why would he care for the rest?

And I don't remember this one: "insulting her dead husband’s sex life." I thought it was Isabela who makes this sort of comments, but they are all merely jokes, not insults.

To add to your list of bad things:
When you first meet Grace, Anders says that it's better to kill one random templar (Thrask) than to endanger all the mages in the cave. If you resolve the situation peacefully and click on him, he says that Thrask turned out to be a decent man. Anders... 


PS I wanted to delete the following part, as it's not quite relevant to the discussion in the thread, but since Cantina already cited it...

Actually, we were counting all the weird things companions do on another forum, I'd give Bioware a credit for that, they know how to create grey characters:
All but Anders and Sebastian betray you in the Fade.
Anders and Fenris insult each other to no end.
Fenris approves of blackmailing Thrask after the death of his daughter.
After the death of Pol he calls Merrill a monster, after the death of Marethari -  "I'm not sorry she's dead. I'm only sorry she died for you."
If both Fenris and Anders are in the party inside the cave, after the Anders' line Fenris says that for once he agrees with his eternal rival.
Sebastian wants to hand Anders and Merrill to the templars and discusses it with Fenris in Act 3.
He also gets jealous if you are romancing Anders and voices his disapproval in the last Questioning Beliefs conversation.
And there is his famous "kill him or I'll raise the entire city to the ground."
Merrill approves of dealing with Torpor who wants to possess Feynriel.
Merrill stronly disapproves of destroying evil tomes (you can get 50 rivalry from this quest alone).
And then there is that story with Marethari.
Isabela approves of blackmailing several times, and of telling her friend where is the stolen poison.
She endangers the entire city out of greed, and even if she returns with the book, it's because of Hawke, not because she changed her views.
In Act 3 Isabella is willing to deal with the slaver in order to get her precious ship back.
Carver is just an ass in Act 1 - I think it needs no explanation. I like how he changes if he becomes a Grey Warden, though.

There is little to compromise Aveline and Varric though , apart from their Fade betrayals (and they are both the last in the list) and the fact that Aveline approves of killing Bartrand even after he is healed by Anders.

Modifié par Koire, 11 avril 2012 - 12:09 .

[Cantina]

Koire wrote...

@Always Alice
Re your replies to me - I think it's safest to agree to disagree, because the conclusions we draw are all based on assumptions. What would the Divine do? Would Elthina be able to hold the line forever? What will the templars do? What will Anders do afterwards? etc
Time will tell

Re some of your replies to Cantina (I agree with the rest though).

How is Anders “protecting” Hawke? He makes her an accomplice.

He is actually trying to protect Hawke - in his own way. He needs help, but he doesn't want Hawke to share the responsibility. If he said to Meredith and Orsino: "Hey, and here is Hawke, (s)he helped me," I would probably be utterly angry But he takes all the blame.
Not that I think a betrayal of trust is a good thing in the first place.

Selfless?
He approves when you give Fenris back to Danarius.
In Awakening, he wants the PC to side with the Baroness because it would be the best chance of getting out of the Fade.
He takes petty swipes at Aveline and Merrill, insulting her dead husband’s sex life and telling Merrill the world would be better off without her.
He is visibly jealous and catty if Hawke romances Fenris or Merrill (I swear, hearing some of his dialogue was like reliving high school)
He willingly blows up a building in Hightown to destroy the chance of compromise, knowing that there is a good possibility the mages will all die, including Hawke’s sister Bethany (if she’s in the circle).
Anders may do good things, but he is far from selfless.

He is very human. That's the major reason I like the character. 
If you tell him to run for his life when you first meet him in Awakening, he returns and explains that he wanted to help despite the danger of being caught by the templars.
Also, both Anders and Justice approve of saving Amaranthine, the third companion who does that being Sigrun. All the rest advise the Warden-Commandor to abandon the city.
He is healing the refugees for free.
The first time he meets Hawke, he offers to trade the maps for help to his friend, not for something for himself.
Between acts 1 and 2 he is risking his life to help the Circle mages flee, and at that he tells he was not attacking the templars openly.
Again he asks Hawke to investigate the Tranquil solution for the Circle mages, not for himself.
Even his last act is something he believes is necessary for the others. He's an apostate and has something the other mages do not - relative freedom, why would he care for the rest?

And I don't remember this one: "insulting her dead husband’s sex life." I thought it was Isabela who makes this sort of comments, but they are all merely jokes, not insults.

To add to your list of bad things:
When you first meet Grace, Anders says that it's better to kill one random templar (Thrask) than to endanger all the mages in the cave. If you resolve the situation peacefully and click on him, he says that Thrask turned out to be a decent man. Anders... 

Actually, we were counting all the weird things companions do on another forum, I'd give Bioware a credit for that, they know how to create grey characters:
All but Anders and Sebastian betray you in the Fade.
Anders and Fenris insult each other to no end.
Fenris approves of blackmailing Thrask after the death of his daughter.
After the death of Pol he calls Merrill a monster, after the death of Marethari -  "I'm not sorry she's dead. I'm only sorry she died for you."
If both Fenris and Anders are in the party inside the cave, after the Anders' line Fenris says that for once he agrees with his eternal rival.
Sebastian wants to hand Anders and Merrill to the templars and discusses it with Fenris in Act 3.
He also gets jealous if you are romancing Anders and voices his disapproval in the last Questioning Beliefs conversation.
And there is his famous "kill him or I'll raise the entire city to the ground."
Merrill approves of dealing with Torpor who wants to possess Feynriel.
Merrill stronly disapproves of destroying evil tomes (you can get 50 rivalry from this quest alone).
And then there is that story with Marethari.
Isabela approves of blackmailing several times.
She endangers the entire city out of greed, and even if she returns with the book, it's because of Hawke, not because she changed her views.
In Act 3 Isabella is willing to deal with the slaver in order to get her precious ship back.
Carver is just an ass in Act 1 - I think it needs no explanation. I like how he changes if he becomes a Grey Warden, though.

There is little to compromise Aveline and Varric though , apart from their Fade betrayals (and they are both the last in the list) and the fact that Aveline approves of killing Bartrand even after he is healed by Anders.

Only thing I will say is Anders said what he said to Aveline as a joke, not an insult.

But more then that I have nothing to responde to Alice's comments since you summoned it up nicely.

We will have to agree to disagree. I could sit here, open Word and spend the next two hours debating this, but it will end in circles. People will see things diffrently then others, nothing wrong with that.

Oh BTw, I was not coming out and directly saying I or anyone was being called a monster for standing up to Anders, it was an observation, no an insult. Probably could go so far as a bad joke on my part, blame the internet for not coming across as such.

[Koire]

Err, I've edited my post while you were writing a reply) Well, let it be in two versions then.

[Always Alice]

Yes, I think it's best to agree to disagree. This is such a polarizing topic, and I feel like anything we say is just going to be repetitive. There have been so many threads about this topic that I’m sure we’ve all heard the arguments from both sides. What it comes down to is personal opinion.

Koire wrote...
He is actually trying to protect Hawke - in his own way. He needs help, but he doesn't want Hawke to share the responsibility. If he said to Meredith and Orsino: "Hey, and here is Hawke, (s)he helped me," I would probably be utterly angry But he takes all the blame.
Not that I think a betrayal of trust is a good thing in the first place.

I think if he didn’t want her to share responsibility then he would not have asked her in the first place, or he would at least warn her ahead of time so she could get her family to safety. As it stands, she is partially responsible for the explosion because of her involvement via gathering the materials, and the all those deaths could be a very heavy weight on her mind (which depends on how you play, I suppose). But yeah, he could have definitely told the others that she helped him, but didn’t.

He is very human. That's the major reason I like the character.
If you tell him to run for his life when you first meet him in Awakening, he returns and explains that he wanted to help despite the danger of being caught by the templars.
Also, both Anders and Justice approve of saving Amaranthine, the third companion who does that being Sigrun. All the rest advise the Warden-Commandor to abandon the city.
He is healing the refugees for free.
The first time he meets Hawke, he offers to trade the maps for help to his friend, not for something for himself.
Then there is this "Take him and try, I'm asking you," and how he tries to support Hawke in the following cutscene.
Between acts 1 and 2 he is risking his life to help the Circle mages flee, and at that he tells he was not attacking the templars openly.
Again he asks Hawke to investigate the Tranquil solution for the Circle mages, not for himself.
And he is crushed after the scene with Ella.
He is genuinly sorry there isn't much he can do for Bartrand, and he can't help Leandra.
Even his last act is something he believes is necessary for the others. He's an apostate and has something the other mages do not - relative freedom, why would he care for the rest?

Agreed, Anders is a very complicated character, which is why I like him so much. I’m not saying he can’t act selfless, but I wouldn’t define him as being a selfless person. Like you said, he’s very human. He’s not a complete monster but he’s hardly some paragon of virtue.

And I don't remember this one: "insulting her dead husband’s sex life." I thought it was Isabela who makes this sort of comments, but they are all merely jokes, not insults.

Here’s the conversation, taken staraight from the Dragon Age Wiki:
Anders: So you married a templar, huh?
Aveline: What of it?
Anders: Are they all as dirty as they seem?
Aveline: What?
Anders: Did he ever ask you to play "the naughty mage and the helpless recruit?" Maybe the "secret desire demon and the upstanding knight?"
Aveline: That's disgusting!
Anders: I hear it's quite popular.
Isabela references Wesley once, when she asks Aveline if Wesley found her intimidating (and Aveline cuts her off, telling her she doesn’t want to talk about him, which indicates he's a sensitive topic). She doesn’t try to compromise his character, like Anders seems to be doing here. While Isabela likes to joke around, Anders just seems bitter and snappy. If he was trying to make a joke, then it was an insensitive one, as Wesley is dead and he is still fresh on her mind. YMMV, I suppose.

To add to your list of bad things:
When you first meet Grace, Anders says that it's better to kill one random templar (Thrask) than to endanger all the mages in the cave. If you resolve the situation peacefully and click on him, he says that Thrask turned out to be a decent man. Anders...

Lol, I can’t believe I forgot about this one!

Actually, we were counting all the weird things companions do on another forum, I'd give Bioware a credit for that, they know how to create grey characters:
All but Anders and Sebastian betray you in the Fade.
Anders and Fenris insult each other to no end.
Fenris approves of blackmailing Thrask after the death of his daughter.
After the death of Pol he calls Merrill a monster, after the death of Marethari - "I'm not sorry she's dead. I'm only sorry she died for you."
If both Fenris and Anders are in the party inside the cave, after the Anders' line Fenris says that for once he agrees with his eternal rival.
Sebastian wants to hand Anders and Merrill to the templars and discusses it with Fenris in Act 3.
He also gets jealous if you are romancing Anders and voices his disapproval in the last Questioning Beliefs conversation.
And there is his famous "kill him or I'll raise the entire city to the ground."
Merrill approves of dealing with Torpor who wants to possess Feynriel.
Merrill stronly disapproves of destroying evil tomes (you can get 50 rivalry from this quest alone).
And then there is that story with Marethari.
Isabela approves of blackmailing several times, and of telling her friend where is the stolen poison.
She endangers the entire city out of greed, and even if she returns with the book, it's because of Hawke, not because she changed her views.
In Act 3 Isabella is willing to deal with the slaver in order to get her precious ship back.
Carver is just an ass in Act 1 - I think it needs no explanation. I like how he changes if he becomes a Grey Warden, though.

There is little to compromise Aveline and Varric though , apart from their Fade betrayals (and they are both the last in the list) and the fact that Aveline approves of killing Bartrand even after he is healed by Anders.

Yup, everyone has shades of “grey” in this game. That’s what makes it so fun!

Modifié par Always Alice, 11 avril 2012 - 02:19 .

[Archedes]

A little late, but I was debating the necessity of blowing up the chantry--not killing the Grand Cleric. I am aware that Meredith could invoke the RoA without her alive, considering she basically says so verbatim after the chantry explodes. And I agree with Always Alice's response.

[Koire]

Always Alice wrote...

Anders: So you married a templar, huh?
Aveline: What of it?
Anders: Are they all as dirty as they seem?
Aveline: What?
Anders: Did he ever ask you to play "the naughty mage and the helpless recruit?" Maybe the "secret desire demon and the upstanding knight?"
Aveline: That's disgusting!
Anders: I hear it's quite popular.

Ah) This one is officially on my "funny list", because when you catch that half-naked guy and the elf prostitute in the Harimann estate, he says that he will be a dirty templar and she - a naughty apostate Can't think about anything else when I hear it.
But yeah, I agree it's at least very impolite.

Archedes wrote...

A little late, but I was debating the necessity of blowing up the chantry--not killing the Grand Cleric. I am aware that Meredith could invoke the RoA without her alive, considering she basically says so verbatim after the chantry explodes. And I agree with Always Alice's response.

 

As far as I understand from David's posts, simply killing the Grand Cleric would be insufficient, because she would have a successor - one of the revered mothers. Only killing all of them would give Meredith the rights she needed. Which is exactly what happened when the Chantry was destroyed.

Modifié par Koire, 11 avril 2012 - 07:31 .

[Cantina]

Koire wrote...

Always Alice wrote...

Anders: So you married a templar, huh?
Aveline: What of it?
Anders: Are they all as dirty as they seem?
Aveline: What?
Anders: Did he ever ask you to play "the naughty mage and the helpless recruit?" Maybe the "secret desire demon and the upstanding knight?"
Aveline: That's disgusting!
Anders: I hear it's quite popular.

Ah) This one is officially on my "funny list", because when you catch that half-naked guy and the elf prostitute in the Harimann estate, he says that he will be a dirty templar and she - a naughty apostate Can't think about anything else when I hear it.
But yeah, I agree it's at least very impolite.

I dunno I find it ****g hilarious what he said to her, my side spilt the first time I heard that. Course my humor is like Anders on some levels. Ah well.

[Always Alice]

Koire wrote...

Ah) This one is officially on my "funny list", because when you catch that half-naked guy and the elf prostitute in the Harimann estate, he says that he will be a dirty templar and she - a naughty apostate Can't think about anything else when I hear it.
But yeah, I agree it's at least very impolite.

Haha, that guy is hillarious. The comments the party members make are like icing on the cake (especially Isabela's!)

[esper]

To continue everyone is grey debate: It does account for Aveline and Varric too, it is just not so easily to see:

Aveline is a corrupt guard, yes we does not see it because we are the ones she protect so many forgive her for it, but she places Hawke above the law, and her guards above the common people: Her banter of 'I'm not letting my guard fight in dark corner at nights' is very telling. It is their job to fight in dark corners in the night so that the city isn't overrun. Her job is to figure out how to do it best, but she doesn't. She guards the guardsmen, but that is not only good thing when it effectively prevents the guards from guarding the commong people. Why do you think that she needs to marry Donnic to calm down just a little? And then she takes the morale high horse in the weirdest subject. Why is it that Carver shouldn't be a guard again, all he needed was a purpose and a break from Hawke. He would have made a fine guard.- To be honest Aveline is my most hated companion because she is the only one whose flaw is never regonized in game.

Varric is an informant, he have ties in the Carta, amongst spies and his 'coins flow when I talk, and coin flow when I stop' have a nasty implecations.

[cowoline]

Seriously how borring would the game be if the characters weren't shady. I like the characters for their virtues, but absolutely LOVE them for their flaws. Besides Hawke walk around killing people for money, not sure Hawke would ever attract a decent crowd.

esper wrote...
 .....her guards above the common people: Her banter of 'I'm not letting my guard fight in dark corner at nights' is very telling. 

Completely agree with this. My first thought was "Why the h*** not?! You would rather risk the lives of a civilian" But i doubt that the developers thought that one through.

[cowoline]

Always Alice wrote...

Anders: So you married a templar, huh?
Aveline: What of it?
Anders: Are they all as dirty as they seem?
Aveline: What?
Anders: Did he ever ask you to play "the naughty mage and the helpless recruit?" Maybe the "secret desire demon and the upstanding knight?"
Aveline: That's disgusting!
Anders: I hear it's quite popular.

I can see that this one could be considered rude, but i don't think the developers intended it as such. But i did start to wonder, Anders only gets along with Varric and Hawke. IMO they went a little overboard with his brooding and makes him sound like an *** in most of the banters.

Espicially with Merrill. I have chosen to take his conversations with her as a way of "protecting" or "saving" her, but i wish that i had the option to tell him that "people tend not to take your advise when you scold them!".

I liked in DAO that all the banter made me laugh, in DA2 at least 50% of Anders (i would say around 95%of the ones i has with sebastian) banter isn't funny at all. Miss Awakening Anders.

The only one that made me laugh was:

• Anders: Go ahead. Say it.
• Sebastian: Say what?
• Anders: I saw you watching me.
• Sebastian: I was looking at the clouds.
• Anders: Don't give me that. I know you've been judging me.
• Anders: You think I'm out of control. How can I claim to speak for mages when I'm half demon myself?
• Sebastian: The one over there looks a bit like a bunny rabbit.

[Always Alice]

Great point about Aveline, esper. She is technically a corrupt guard, even though players usually don't realize it since she's on our side. I really wish the developers did more with that idea.

cowoline wrote...
I can see that this one could be considered rude, but i don't think the developers intended it as such. But i did start to wonder, Anders only gets along with Varric and Hawke. IMO they went a little overboard with his brooding and makes him sound like an *** in most of the banters.

I'm not sure what they intended, truthfully. It's hard to see Anders as being anything other than a callous ****** when he says it, especially since Wesley's death is fresh on Aveline's mind, and he's essentially perverting the memory of her dead husband.

And yeah, Anders doesn't really have any friends in the group besides Varric (and possibly Hawke. Maybe this is why he's so clingy?) Heck, even broody  Fenris gets along better with the group as a whole. Anders gets along well with Bethany in the first act, but after she becomes a circle mage he starts to get a bit nasty with her in the DLC. Sometimes it seems like he gets along with Isabela, but more often then not he looks down on her and tries to impose his views.

Espicially with Merrill. I have chosen to take his conversations with her as a way of "protecting" or "saving" her, but i wish that i had the option to tell him that "people tend not to take your advise when you scold them!".

I felt so bad for Merrill during her Act II quest! I brought along Anders and Fenris and I wanted to punch both of them after Marethari's death.

I liked in DAO that all the banter made me laugh, in DA2 at least 50% of Anders (i would say around 95%of the ones i has with sebastian) banter isn't funny at all. Miss Awakening Anders.

I really miss Awakening Anders, but I do think his change was a logical progression of character. I really liked the quest with Nathaniel because it seemed like he got some of his old spark back; I wish there were more cameos from Awakening so Anders could interact with them more.

The only one that made me laugh was:

• Anders: Go ahead. Say it.
  
• Sebastian: Say what?
  
• Anders: I saw you watching me.
  
• Sebastian: I was looking at the clouds.
  
• Anders: Don't give me that. I know you've been judging me.
  
• Anders: You think I'm out of control. How can I claim to speak for mages when I'm half demon myself?
  
• Sebastian: The one over there looks a bit like a bunny rabbit.

I loved that one! It was funny but also a bit sad at the same time, because it illustrates how paranoid Anders is becoming.

[Cantina]

Well keep in mind too DA2 was not exactly finished-per say. I
believe I recall Gaider saying something along the lines of wanting the game to
be more “polished” in the story sense. I can believe this since there were
quite a few story holes along the way.

Plus this evident of a lot of broken dialogue, a character
says one thing and then says another. Not sure if in all case, this was a means
to show a characters flaws or a writing mistake.

But despite the game not being exactly on my list of the
best games ever, I will say Anders is on the list of the best NPCs I have come
across.

I can see why though Anders does not get along well with
most of the companions, cannot say I blame him.

Merrill-Blood Mage

Fenris- Hates Mages

Aveline- Authority Figure

Sebastian- Lips glued to the Chantry’s ass

Carver- Is just well…yeah

Bethany- I cannot comment since I never played a game with her
alive past Lothering.

Isabella- I think Anders seems middle ground on liking or
hating her.

 

Compared to the companions of DAO, I can say most of them I
found annoying and boring.  Oh sure I
liked Varric and well duh, love Anders, but outside of that, honestly felt not
attachment to any of the other companions. 


Going back to something that was mentioned here, in some
ways, Anders could be viewed as a ****** in Awakening, just depends on how a
person chooses to interpret his personality. Then when he merged with Justice
that “characteristic” was amplified.

Oh and speaking of dialogue banter, I thought this exchange
was hilarious, I recall nearly choking on my Pepsi when I heard this the first
time.

• Isabela: So, Donnic was in the Rose.
• Aveline: He was not!
• Isabela: Easy, big girl. He wasn't shopping for himself. You're lucky to have a man who wants to please you.
• Isabela: But, maybe you could indulge him more. Are there areas of intimacy you haven't explored?
• Aveline: Why? Why do you give me these doubts!
• Isabela: Aveline. If you shove your thumb up his ass, I win.
• Anders: Just... no.

       

[Always Alice]

Cantina wrote...

Well keep in mind too DA2 was not exactly finished-per say. I
believe I recall Gaider saying something along the lines of wanting the game to
be more “polished” in the story sense. I can believe this since there were
quite a few story holes along the way.

DA2 was definitely in need of some polishing. I keep thinking about the idiocy of the plotline with Grace and Thrask in Act III, especially if you side with the mages. That was almost painful to watch.

Plus this evident of a lot of broken dialogue, a character
says one thing and then says another. Not sure if in all case, this was a means
to show a characters flaws or a writing mistake.

I think it's meant to illustrate character flaws, since iirc each character is assigned a writer, who writes all their dialogue in the game. They're the ones who know the character best (since they are in charge of the characterization, after all).

But despite the game not being exactly on my list of the
best games ever, I will say Anders is on the list of the best NPCs I have come
across.

Agreed.

I can see why though Anders does not get along well with
most of the companions, cannot say I blame him.

Merrill-Blood Mage

Fenris- Hates Mages

Aveline- Authority Figure

Sebastian- Lips glued to the Chantry’s ass

Carver- Is just well…yeah

Bethany- I cannot comment since I never played a game with her
alive past Lothering.

Isabella- I think Anders seems middle ground on liking or
hating her.

I can understand not getting along with them; it's him acting like a complete ****** towards them which can be annoying. 
 

Compared to the companions of DAO, I can say most of them I
found annoying and boring.  Oh sure I
liked Varric and well duh, love Anders, but outside of that, honestly felt not
attachment to any of the other companions. 

I liked them, personally. In fact, I don't think there's a single party member in either Dragon Age gamethat I dislike.

Going back to something that was mentioned here, in some
ways, Anders could be viewed as a ****** in Awakening, just depends on how a
person chooses to interpret his personality. Then when he merged with Justice
that “characteristic” was amplified.

Oh, definitely. One of the best parts about replaying Awakening is to see how he acts there and try to connect it with his behavior in the second game. His conversations with Justice are absolutely fascinating.

Oh and speaking of dialogue banter, I thought this exchange
was hilarious, I recall nearly choking on my Pepsi when I heard this the first
time.

• Isabela: So, Donnic was in the Rose.
  
• Aveline: He was not!
  
• Isabela: Easy, big girl. He wasn't shopping for himself. You're lucky to have a man who wants to please you.
  
• Isabela: But, maybe you could indulge him more. Are there areas of intimacy you haven't explored?
  
• Aveline: Why? Why do you give me these doubts!
  
• Isabela: Aveline. If you shove your thumb up his ass, I win.
  
• Anders: Just... no.

       

I love that exchange! Isabela is great, and I love how her friendship with Aveline evolves over the years.

[Cantina]

Always Alice wrote...

DA2 was definitely in need of some polishing. I keep thinking about the idiocy of the plotline with Grace and Thrask in Act III, especially if you side with the mages. That was almost painful to watch.

I have to agree with you. The scene between Grace and Thrask
was pretty awful. In my opinion, some grade school plays come off as Oscar
nominations compared to that.

Always Alice wrote...I think it's meant to illustrate character flaws, since iirc each character is assigned a writer, who writes all their dialogue in the game. They're the ones who know the character best (since they are in charge of the characterization, after all).

Oh sure, a good portion of the characters were suppose to
come off having flaws. Then again, you get dialogue that makes you raise an
eyebrow. Probably the best example is Merill:

Merill (Act 1 when you first met her)

Hawke: You seem awfully nervous.

Merill: I never met human before.

(Later while in the party)

Merill: Varric told me you were a Grey Warden.

Anders: I was.

Merill: I met a Grey Warden once Duncan was his name.

 

And as I said that is just an example, there other ones
spread across the game if you pay close enough attention.

Always Alice wrote I can understand not getting along with them; it's him acting like a complete ****** towards them which can be annoying

I disagree. I understand why he is a ****** to them. I
seriously doubt I be the one to have a jolly conversation to someone who is a
blood mage or how about someone who hates what the person is (mage). I will not
even bother defending Anders acting the way he does to Sebastian, considering that
should be obvious. In my opinion [Anders] was being a little too “nice”
compared to what I would love to say to that ass hat.


 

Modifié par Cantina, 13 avril 2012 - 02:58 .

[Always Alice]

Cantina wrote...

Oh sure, a good portion of the characters were suppose to
come off having flaws. Then again, you get dialogue that makes you raise an
eyebrow. Probably the best example is Merill:

Merill (Act 1 when you first met her)

Hawke: You seem awfully nervous.

Merill: I never met human before.

(Later while in the party)

Merill: Varric told me you were a Grey Warden.

Anders: I was.

Merill: I met a Grey Warden once Duncan was his name.

 

And as I said that is just an example, there other ones
spread across the game if you pay close enough attention.

I never even noticed that! Good catch.

I disagree. I understand why he is a ****** to them. I
seriously doubt I be the one to have a jolly conversation to someone who is a
blood mage or how about someone who hates what the person is (mage). I will not
even bother defending Anders acting the way he does to Sebastian, considering that
should be obvious. In my opinion [Anders] was being a little too “nice”
compared to what I would love to say to that ass hat.

I don't really know why he wouldn't act cordially towards Merrill, who is nothing but kind to him. Yes,she's a blood mage, but I don't think that's a reason to loathe her, especially since you can make him a blood mage in DAA (like I did, haha). I can understand disliking her, but some of his comments go way over the line (like the Marethari one). Even Sebastian, who has fundamental religious differences with Merrill, is polite to her in conversation.

I totally get him disliking Fenris, and some of their banter is the best. But again, there's that slavery line with Danarius which crosses the line imo. It's kind of funny in a black humor sort of way because after Anders' Act II quest he complains that Fenris is kicking him when he's down, and then Anders goes and says that line in Act III.

With Isabela I think he's an ass because she reminds him of his old self before Justice. Not that it excuses her behavior, but it's an explanation. He keeps imposing his views on her, acting like some kind of fundamentalist. He also is (reasonably) suspicious of Aveline, but he has no reason to act like a jerk. Whenever she tries to be nice, he rebuffs her.

Okay, I just looked over Sebastian's dialogue with Anders on the wiki and I don't see a single instance where he acts like an ass towards Anders without being provoked. Anders is always the one trying to bait him and insulting him. The only dialogue that could be objectionable is the dialogue he has with Fenris about turning Merrill and Anders into the templars in Act III. Truthfully, I don't hold that against him. It's a jerk move, but from an objective standpoint he has every right to: Merrill's a blood mage whose naivite can lead to dangerous situations, and Anders has shown a history of instability with Justice. He has (possibly) already killed one person because he lost control, and who's to say it won't happen again? This dialogue occurs during Act III, when Anders is recognized as being moody, depressive, and overall suspicious. Sebastian knows that Anders is plotting something against the Chantry, so why wouldn't he try to do something about it? If he did decide to follow his gut then he might still have his foster family.

Lol I'm probably the only person here that likes both Sebastian and Anders. I don't think that if you like one you have to hate the other.

Modifié par Always Alice, 13 avril 2012 - 03:46 .

[rex]

Always Alice wrote...

Lol I'm probably the only person here that likes both Sebastian and Anders. I don't think that if you like one you have to hate the other.

You're not the only one! ;D I'm not crazy about Seb like I am Anders, but I definitely like him. IMO, Anders and Seb could have learned from each other if they would have listened to each other. But I also think that about all the companions who bicker, they could have learned something from one another 

Modifié par Ruux, 13 avril 2012 - 04:09 .

[slashthedragon]

Always Alice wrote...
I totally get him disliking Fenris, and some of their banter is the best. But again, there's that slavery line with Danarius which crosses the line imo. It's kind of funny in a black humor sort of way because after Anders' Act II quest he complains that Fenris is kicking him when he's down, and then Anders goes and says that line in Act III.

But he onlys says that in certain playthroughs.  You can't say that it is canon, because other playthroughs do not have him saying that, and you shouldn't bring what happens in one playthrough to another.

[Always Alice]

slashthedragon wrote...

Always Alice wrote...
I totally get him disliking Fenris, and some of their banter is the best. But again, there's that slavery line with Danarius which crosses the line imo. It's kind of funny in a black humor sort of way because after Anders' Act II quest he complains that Fenris is kicking him when he's down, and then Anders goes and says that line in Act III.

But he onlys says that in certain playthroughs.  You can't say that it is canon, because other playthroughs do not have him saying that, and you shouldn't bring what happens in one playthrough to another.

Even if your Hawke doesn't hand him over (mine never did! Even watching the cutscene on youtube breaks my heart), that doesn't mean he wouldn't say  the line if certain conditions are met. Regardless of how you play, Anders has the same opinion of Fenris in everyone's playthrough. The fact that he does not voice his opinion if you keep him does not mean his opinion drastically changes. The fact that he says that line at all shows that his writer believed he would say that line, making it part of his characterization.

The tricky part about a game like this is that you can argue that just about every line of dialogue spoken by a companion is technically non-canon, as not everyone has the same party members with them at certain intervals and so forth. I could say that it was non-canon for Sebastian to have the conversation with Fenris about turning in Anders and Merrill since he didn't say it in one of my playthroughs, but that does not erase the fact that Sebastian would suggest it.

[Always Alice]

Ruux wrote...
You're not the only one! ;D I'm not crazy about Seb like I am Anders, but I definitely like him. IMO, Anders and Seb could have learned from each other if they would have listened to each other. But I also think that about all the companions who bicker, they could have learned something from one another 

Agreed! It's a life lesson, really, and one that is sadly often ignored. I wish we could have seen them all hanging out at the Hanged Man to play cards or something (since apparently they do get together offscreen, according to the banters).Or at least just hanging out and doing something not related to mages or templars or the Chantry.

[slashthedragon]

Always Alice wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

Always Alice wrote...
I totally get him disliking Fenris, and some of their banter is the best. But again, there's that slavery line with Danarius which crosses the line imo. It's kind of funny in a black humor sort of way because after Anders' Act II quest he complains that Fenris is kicking him when he's down, and then Anders goes and says that line in Act III.

But he onlys says that in certain playthroughs.  You can't say that it is canon, because other playthroughs do not have him saying that, and you shouldn't bring what happens in one playthrough to another.

Even if your Hawke doesn't hand him over (mine never did! Even watching the cutscene on youtube breaks my heart), that doesn't mean he wouldn't say  the line if certain conditions are met. Regardless of how you play, Anders has the same opinion of Fenris in everyone's playthrough. The fact that he does not voice his opinion if you keep him does not mean his opinion drastically changes. The fact that he says that line at all shows that his writer believed he would say that line, making it part of his characterization.

The tricky part about a game like this is that you can argue that just about every line of dialogue spoken by a companion is technically non-canon, as not everyone has the same party members with them at certain intervals and so forth. I could say that it was non-canon for Sebastian to have the conversation with Fenris about turning in Anders and Merrill since he didn't say it in one of my playthroughs, but that does not erase the fact that Sebastian would suggest it.

But then you are meta gaming (I believe that is the term).  You can't have knowledge of one playthrough and say a character feels *exactly* the same through other playthroughs.  Someone pointed out that Anders says that when you play Hawke as a d*ck, which brings out the worst in the companions.
What I would really love is for one of the writers to come out and tell us if Anders was meant to be a big old hypocrite and always wanted to give Fenris back to Danarius, or if it could be different in other playthroughs.

[esper]

Ruux wrote...

Always Alice wrote...

Lol I'm probably the only person here that likes both Sebastian and Anders. I don't think that if you like one you have to hate the other.

You're not the only one! ;D I'm not crazy about Seb like I am Anders, but I definitely like him. IMO, Anders and Seb could have learned from each other if they would have listened to each other. But I also think that about all the companions who bicker, they could have learned something from one another 

I actually don't think that the Anders and sebastian can learn from each other.
The are both good people deep in their soul where they differ I don't think they should learn from one anotjer, they are both into vengance.
I am not sure that Anders needs to learn to be impulsive and rash, and Sebastian certainly doesn't need to learn never to change his mind.

[cowoline]

Cantina wrote...

Oh sure, a good portion of the characters were suppose to
come off having flaws. Then again, you get dialogue that makes you raise an
eyebrow. Probably the best example is Merill:

Merill (Act 1 when you first met her)

Hawke: You seem awfully nervous.

Merill: I never met human before.

(Later while in the party)

Merill: Varric told me you were a Grey Warden.

Anders: I was.

Merill: I met a Grey Warden once Duncan was his name.
 

I wondered about this one to.

I disagree. I understand why he is a ****** to them. I
seriously doubt I be the one to have a jolly conversation to someone who is a
blood mage or how about someone who hates what the person is (mage). I will not
even bother defending Anders acting the way he does to Sebastian, considering that
should be obvious. In my opinion [Anders] was being a little too “nice”
compared to what I would love to say to that ass hat.

I do get why he acts like the way he does and i get that it is part of his character. In act III i even finds his remarks apropriate considering the situation and his behavoiur.

I enjoy the Fenris and Anders banter a lot actually, because it's funny. The "angry-banter" he has with the rest of the group comes of as an assult and thats the part i wish they would have changed. A few lines of this would have been fine, but so much of it is like that.

Personally i prefer arguing with my husband than hearing that. Him i can at least inform that he is being an ass.

I keep thinking of the Morrigan and Alistair banter. They absolutely despice each other, but the banter is still funny. But then again Justice's banter in Awakening wasn't really funny either, so in the end it makes good sense.

Anders Awakening: " Me... i'm just so picky":D

On a side note: Why couldn't they have chosen a new voice for cullen and kept the VA for Anders? Love adam Howden, but he just isn't the "real" Anders.

Edit: Like Sebastians personality(he is an nice character), but I don't think i'll ever come to terms with the high level of Chantry propaganda. It suits his character, but i agree with Varric:


Varric: All right. I thought I was getting tired of moody. I take it back. You're making my teeth ache.
:whistle:

Modifié par cowoline, 13 avril 2012 - 09:29 .

[CuriousArtemis]

slashthedragon wrote...

What I would really love is for one of the writers to come out and tell us if Anders was meant to be a big old hypocrite and always wanted to give Fenris back to Danarius, or if it could be different in other playthroughs.

I've stopped taking Anders to "Alone."  It's just awful, and I'd rather pretend that he's no awful.  I've actually stopped taking him much of anywhere on my current playthrough; he has some really dick things to say to the others at times; then again, so does Fenris, and for some reason I can stomach his meanness better xD