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[Ivucci]

Hello Anders thread

I have never posted here despite being an Anders fan, because it’s a difficult and personal subject plus I didn’t feel I could add anything meaningful to the thousands of pages.

But now I’m here to share a nice (I think) little story and ask for something, too.

I recently took part in a fanfiction challenge, which involved writing a 100 word drabble on any fandom, for each April day. I wrote several Mass Effect pieces and four Anders pieces (not in English, unfortunately). Most of the participants and reviewers do not play computer games (and the ones that do didn’t like Anders because of his portrayal in DA2, I found out) and have no idea what Dragon Age is. Plus, I’m far from being an experienced writer, or let’s say far from being a writer, so I didn’t expect much of a response really, much less a favourable one. I wrote three pre-Origins/Origins drabbles, with Anders portrayed as a sort of a doomed trickster figure, centred around his escape attempts, and one DA2 one in a more serious tone.

Long story short, the feedback I got from people who had never even heard of Dragon Age was amazing and completely unexpected. They were truly intrigued by the character and the story the drabbles hinted on, and very much interested in knowing more (but refused to invest time and money in learning to play computer games).

That’s the first part that I thought you might like I was so happy to see Anders, as a character, getting so much appreciation from a non-videogame crowd, many of whom have classic literature background.

Now to the second part. I can’t write long pieces and probably wouldn’t know what to do with a story that needs a proper plot and dramatic structure, but I promised the guys I would look for a story to recommend or translate.

Most of the Anders stories I saw, though, are DA2 related and heavily romance/angst oriented, which, I admit, is not exactly my cup of tea. I’m looking for a pre-Origins or Origins story about Anders’ past, the Circle years or pre-Awakening events – pretty difficult criteria to meet it seems, yet so much potential, I believe. Any chance some of you might have a good tip? Or do you happen to have a thread or a group dedicated to fanfic recommendations or something?

And to wrap this up a bit, I’ll be very disappointed if he doesn’t have a cameo in DA3, if left alive. This brings me to this thought I’ve had recently. With DA being designed as an open series so far, to what extent can we expect to see the companions’ stories brought to a conclusion? It was only fair to expect this from Mass Effect, but with DA, I worry characters will be just vanishing and disappearing.

edit - I managed to break something

Modifié par Ivucci, 17 mai 2012 - 10:48 .

[berelinde]

Good luck with your quest, Ivucci. It sounds interesting. Unfortunately, I have nothing to contribute myself, since, well... romance is out. Even when I deliberately set out not to write a romance, it turns out that way.

And I found out the name of the Diablo 3 character Greg Ellis voices: Captain Rumford. He's got a not-insignificant part in the Act 1 plot. And for added fun, click the drunk near the bar in the Slaughtered Calf. It's Jansen! Seriously, I adore that guy.

[BevH]

berelinde wrote...

The change in VAs didn't bother me. I liked Greg Ellis for light-hearted and sarcastic Awakening Anders, but I think I prefer the more emotional-sounding Adam Howden for DA2 Anders. Their voices are similar enough in pitch that I can convince myself that the changes in inflection are the result of his experiences post-Awakening.

This is how I felt about it, too.

[ladyofpayne]

[berelinde]

Turns out that Greg Ellis is not included in the Diablo 3 credits. That doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't in the game. It wouldn't be the first time an actor has not been credited with a role. And Gideon Emery is credited for a few parts, as is Grey deLisle. This is just me saying it, but I think Steven Blum (Oghren, First Enchanter Irving) voiced Kulle, and he isn't listed in the credits, either. Also, Dominic Keating (Mouse) voiced the templar companion, Kormac, which I hear now, but I originally thought it was Nicco Lennon (Carver). Maybe it's the constant grumbling about the heat/cold/damp/etc. And I'm not utterly positive about this one, but Covetous Shen really, really sounds like Andrew Pang, the voice of Grobnar in NWN2. Yes, I really, really do play too many video games.

Modifié par berelinde, 22 mai 2012 - 02:48 .

[Ivucci]

berelinde wrote...

Good luck with your quest, Ivucci. It sounds interesting. Unfortunately, I have nothing to contribute myself, since, well... romance is out. Even when I deliberately set out not to write a romance, it turns out that way.

I didn't want to make it sound as if I didn't like romance plots at all, that's not true and would be a silly thing to say.

I think I'm just more keen on exploring the characters' past and discovering the path and all the ties that lead to the current state, which is my general attitude towards any fanfiction, and while I'm sure there's good romance (even though not necessarily romantic) potential in Anders' past, I'd love to see more. All the notes and letters scattered throughout the Circle tower in DAO seem to be hinting on loads of interesting stories and characters (but then, this is true about many of the places in DAO).


As for Adam Howden's voice, I like it and didn't mind the change. He did good - and in some instances great, while Greg Ellis was mostly great - and in some instances a bit over the top, in my amateurish opinion.

I just really, really wish we could hear Mr. Ellis' take on DA2 Anders just to see how he would have handled such a significant change in tone. This is slightly unrelated and more or less rhetorical but I wonder if, and to what extent, a voiceactor can be typecast or cast against type.

Modifié par Ivucci, 23 mai 2012 - 04:59 .

[MissRedZelda]

Am I the only one who hated DA2 Anders, but loved Awakening Anders? Honestly, if he had kept his old personality, Fenris would have had some SERIOUS competition for my Sarah Hawke's affections.

[berelinde]

MissRedZelda wrote...

Am I the only one who hated DA2 Anders, but loved Awakening Anders? Honestly, if he had kept his old personality, Fenris would have had some SERIOUS competition for my Sarah Hawke's affections.

Probably not. Somebody pokes their head in every few pages to say how much they hate DA2 Anders with an optional comparison to Awakening Anders. You get used to it.

DA2 Anders suited my romantic preferences just fine. I like the tragedy, the drama, even the neediness and the betrayal. I also like how it starts out as a corny "greeting card" romance ("(Pants...)" indeed!) and goes terribly, terribly wrong. I appreciate the depth and the multiple ways the romance can be interpreted both played straight and in a meta sense. I like Fenris as a character, but I can't seem to create a character that wants to romance him, and I have tried. As I have said elsewhere, the Fenris romance would have worked for me with completely different implementation, but as written, I just can't do it.

That's why there are four fully-implemented LIs. One or more is bound to suit everyone's tastes.

[fighterchick]

MissRedZelda wrote...

Am I the only one who hated DA2 Anders, but loved Awakening Anders? Honestly, if he had kept his old personality, Fenris would have had some SERIOUS competition for my Sarah Hawke's affections.

You know, I really loved them both.  It sometimes feels like they are two completely different characters, but I guess that's why I enjoy it so much.  I mean, I don't think it would make much sense for Anders to remain unchanged after agreeing to have Justice share his body.  I felt the changes to him were appropriate.  

I, too, mainly romance Fenris, but I think I enjoy Anders as a character more.  Don't get me wrong, I love me some Fenris-mance, but I just hate how he's just sort of a fringe character, whereas Anders is central to the action.  I get why Anders is there, why he continues to stay in Kirkwall, but Fenris is just...there.  Anyways, the Anders romance, I think, is really well written.  I particularly love the rival-mance because it just makes the whole thing all the more tragic...you can see through the interactions that he's slowly losing himself the longer he shares his body with a spirit.   Then how things end...whether you choose to spare him, or you kill him, either way, you're going to ultimately lose Anders, it's heartbreaking and I love it!

[MissRedZelda]

To me, it was tragic up until he blew up the Chantry like a maniacal terrorist. I was excited when I found out Anders was going to be a LI, and that he was going to be voiced by Adam Howden (I like his as a VA). So, Anders was my first playthrough LI (Not with Sarah Hawke, my considered "Canon" Hawke). Come the ending, I couldn't kill Anders fast enough.

Second playthrough, my canon one, I told him to leave. And when he came back, I decided to let him stay because I needed a healer. Sigh... Me no like this new Janders.

[berelinde]

Aha. That's probably the difference. My canon Hawke couldn't blow up the chantry fast enough. He's a mage, you see, and is firmly convinced that as long as the chantry uses its political and military might to enslave mages, civilization will suffer. He dreams of a land where village mages heal sick kids instead of being locked up and kept as a high-maintenance arsenal. Oddly enough, he is a devout Andrastian, but he believes that the chantry has perverted the word of Andraste to suit its own ends. Sure, he was sorry about the necessity of killing Elthina and the six templars who resided in the chantry, but he understands the power of symbolism. Meredith needed a reason to invoke an Annulment (when an execution would have been more appropriate), thus proving how self-serving she and the order had become, and the revolution needed a sign that templars *coud* be defied.

I've played chantry-sympathizing Hawkes, but I usually wind up not liking them much.

[Ryzaki]

MissRedZelda wrote...

To me, it was tragic up until he blew up the Chantry like a maniacal terrorist. I was excited when I found out Anders was going to be a LI, and that he was going to be voiced by Adam Howden (I like his as a VA). So, Anders was my first playthrough LI (Not with Sarah Hawke, my considered "Canon" Hawke). Come the ending, I couldn't kill Anders fast enough.

Second playthrough, my canon one, I told him to leave. And when he came back, I decided to let him stay because I needed a healer. Sigh... Me no like this new Janders.

That and he has haste  (and is the only one outside rogue Hawke and Bethany who can have it). My rogue likes haste.

[Cantina]

MissRedZelda wrote...

To me, it was tragic up until he blew up the Chantry like a maniacal terrorist. I was excited when I found out Anders was going to be a LI, and that he was going to be voiced by Adam Howden (I like his as a VA). So, Anders was my first playthrough LI (Not with Sarah Hawke, my considered "Canon" Hawke). Come the ending, I couldn't kill Anders fast enough.

Second playthrough, my canon one, I told him to leave. And when he came back, I decided to let him stay because I needed a healer. Sigh... Me no like this new Janders.

<shakes head>

I really dislike the "T" word with Anders.

Aside from that I think the over all issue with Anders character compared to that in Awakening was the fact the change was too much too soon. Then you pile on top of it he does not seem the type at all to go through with such a thing.

IF the transformation was something we saw and over time gradually building up to it, then I may accept the change. I have played Dragon Age 2 multiple times and I still have a hard time understanding this is the same Anders from Awakening.

Oh I love Adam's voice over Ellis and its a shame Adam was not choose to do Anders voice in Awakening.

I would not go so far to say it was bad writing, I would however say it was sloppy and not well thought out. They did try after all to improve and change Anders character, but in my opinion it was the wrong road to take. I just feel they knew the ending they wanted and chose to get there no matter how many short cuts they needed to take.

Did I kill Anders at the end or the number of times I played? Oh hell no and its not because I was in need of a healer. It comes down to the fact he was right and killing someone because they were right, just does not make sense.

[berelinde]

The T-word is another generation's freedom fighter. It was catastrophic. It was heinous. It was also necessary.

IMO, Anders knew that generations would hate him for his actions and he did it anyway. Call it bravery or call it desperation, it was what Thedas needed.

[Cantina]

berelinde wrote...

The T-word is another generation's freedom fighter. It was catastrophic. It was heinous. It was also necessary.

IMO, Anders knew that generations would hate him for his actions and he did it anyway. Call it bravery or call it desperation, it was what Thedas needed.

True to that.

Something like this was bound to happen. The system may have worked back when it first started but as the years went on things just became worse. Kirkwall stands as a testament as to just how bad things could get. And how long until the rest of the Circles would soon become just as bad if not worse.

I just hope his risk was worth it and the mages do win their freedom.

Modifié par Cantina, 26 mai 2012 - 10:16 .

[berelinde]

The problem with the Circles is that they operated under a system of trust. The mages put their faith in the Chantry to oversee the training of new mages in order to ensure that they were protected. They considered the Chantry overseers ethical. Unfortunately, this meant that they were placing their lives under somebody else's control. This gave the Chantry power over them. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Circles may have begun with good intentions, but the templars eventually forgot that they were there at the mages' request, not by divine right, and they started acting as if they owned the mages. Since more mages are born every year, they were a renewable resource and therefore, there was no need to treat them gently.

So yeah, their only hope is self-governance.

[Gervaise]

I've just been playing through again after a break and really listening to Anders' banter with other characters and he keeps asking all the right questions, particularly of Sebastian, but never gets any straight answers. The only thing I don't understand is that if he wanted to make a really big political statement, why didn't he take out the Gallows as well? Since he didn't seem particularly worried about the fate of the Circle mages in the aftermath, the possibility of them going sky high couldn't have been an issue and at least it would have ensured it could never be used again, regardless of whether his rebellion took off or not.

[robertthebard]

Cantina wrote...

MissRedZelda wrote...

To me, it was tragic up until he blew up the Chantry like a maniacal terrorist. I was excited when I found out Anders was going to be a LI, and that he was going to be voiced by Adam Howden (I like his as a VA). So, Anders was my first playthrough LI (Not with Sarah Hawke, my considered "Canon" Hawke). Come the ending, I couldn't kill Anders fast enough.

Second playthrough, my canon one, I told him to leave. And when he came back, I decided to let him stay because I needed a healer. Sigh... Me no like this new Janders.

<shakes head>

I really dislike the "T" word with Anders.

Aside from that I think the over all issue with Anders character compared to that in Awakening was the fact the change was too much too soon. Then you pile on top of it he does not seem the type at all to go through with such a thing.

IF the transformation was something we saw and over time gradually building up to it, then I may accept the change. I have played Dragon Age 2 multiple times and I still have a hard time understanding this is the same Anders from Awakening.

Oh I love Adam's voice over Ellis and its a shame Adam was not choose to do Anders voice in Awakening.

I would not go so far to say it was bad writing, I would however say it was sloppy and not well thought out. They did try after all to improve and change Anders character, but in my opinion it was the wrong road to take. I just feel they knew the ending they wanted and chose to get there no matter how many short cuts they needed to take.

Did I kill Anders at the end or the number of times I played? Oh hell no and its not because I was in need of a healer. It comes down to the fact he was right and killing someone because they were right, just does not make sense.

Except he wasn't right.  At least not wholly right.  If he were going to blow something up, it should have been the Templars.  Elthina was guilty of hoping Faith would win out, and stuck her head in the sand to avoid dealing with it, unless she had to, such as the opening to Act III.  However, she wasn't the correct target.  We can, knowing it's supposed to be that way, take it on faith that the Chantry runs the Templars, but we can also take it from this game that the Chantry really doesn't, in some places, exercise the control.  Whether they are incapable, or unwilling, or out of the loop, which seems to be where Elthina was, and where Meredith wanted to keep her.

I have no problem hitting him with the Murder Knife, and I had no trouble on my first playthrough, when I didn't know what was going to happen.  He might as well have blown up the Alienage, as far as I was concerned.  All to be a martyr for change.  I granted him his wish, since martyr status is always awarded after death.

[MissRedZelda]

Well, I've finally gotten around to playing as a Female Mage in Origins romancing Alistair, and . . . I can't stay with him if I make him King. :-( I can only be his mistress.

Because of that, I can understand now what Anders was trying to do. Mages are incredibly distrusted and treated so horribly. And it was that stigma that was what was keeping my Mage and Alistair apart (if he was King, so I put Adora on the throne). The Mages do need to be liberated, and that people do need to understand that not all Mages are evil and prone to possession.

However, I just really hate how Anders went about it. Two wrongs don't make a right, Anders!

[Cantina]

That is where I see things differently. Anders was right in what he did. Oh bloody hell; I am going to be writing my manifesto here <sighs>.

The Chantry is more of a military system then a religious one. While they try to spread the word of the Maker and Andraste, they have a strong grip on the Mages. They use the Templars to be their weapon to keep the Mages in line. The problem with this system is it may have worked long ago, but as time passed, the Chantry allowed the Templars to get away with far too much. They did so simply because without the Templars they would be nothing-the Chantry needs the Templars.

Elthena (was) I would say clever but also highly stupid in how she handled the situation in Kirkwall. Without directly saying it, I for saw it as rather obvious, she supported the Templars but could not openly come out and say it. She could not support the Mages at all because she would lose her precious bodyguard system. However, she played the “game” and acted she was not on either side, but trying to make peace between the two. IF she truly wanted peace, she could have taken the Divine’s offer and accepted the help. However, I see why she did not; it would cause a lot of scandal if the Divine stepped in to remove Meredith. Elthena was the one who gave Meredith her position, removing Meredith from that position who put a whole lot of questions in play about the Chantry and Elthena herself. Elthena was more worried about protecting herself and the system than anything else.

Anders said he removed the chance of compromise because there is no comprise and this is true. No matter how bad Meredith became, Elthena could say she does not agree with it but would do nothing about it. No doubt things would have gotten far worse in Kirkwall, destroying the Chantry gave the Mages a chance to fight back. Yes, Mages died, but I personally would rather die than be under a tyrant’s thumb of rule and the Chantry just stands by and allows it to happen.

You cannot expect peace when a war within the system has been coming to a boil for over a thousand years. Beyond that, you cannot expect peace when the very system is not willing to step in and put a stop to the insanity. IF talking was not going to work for 3 years, it is high time to ask for outside help. If you are that stupid not to accept the help offered, you have done nothing but damned yourself.

Anders was right because he knew there was no chance for peace due to things becoming so out of hand. You either take a chance when it is given to fight for peace or sit back and suffer. Numerous people have died and will die during this war, but no war can be fought without death and sacrifice.

Destroying the Chantry creates a huge blow on the system. For one thing, the city of Kirkwall is the Templar power in the east. As the other Circles fall, the source of the Chantry’s income is going to dry up-no new tranquil or current tranquil to do enchantments. Then you have the Templars and Seekers rebelling, The Chantry does not have a stable source of security.

Yes, what Anders did is no doubt will be a stain on his life for years to come. However, it is hard to persecute someone from destroying an all ready crumbling system. Sometimes drastic actions must be taken in order to achieve freedom and what happened in Kirkwall was bound to happen somewhere at some point by someone. The breaking point was reached and the Templars and the Chantry have only themselves to blame.

This how I feel about and I know not everyone will agree, but we all have our opinions.

Modifié par Cantina, 27 mai 2012 - 05:25 .

[MissRedZelda]

But in destroying the Chantry, he killed so many innocents. How is that right? I'm sorry, but I don't condone terrorism. The ends don't justify the means.

[cowoline]

I geuss that the phrase "The ends do not justify the means" is an individual one. Would you kill one person to save the lives of five? As individuals we can not be replaced, that is also what makes justice such a "strange" concept.

Can the death of one only be brought justice with the death of another? If one person is mudered, killing the person who did it changes nothing. The murderer might not be able to harm anyone else, but it will never make up for the lives lost and justice can never be truely given to those left behind.

Personally if I was left with the choice between one life and five I would choose the death of one. It would not be one I would willingly make and I am confident that I would be haunted by it for the rest of my life, but I would do it.

I always viewed what Anders did in the same way. I don't condone terrorism either, but I do understand why Anders did it. That does not mean that I would have chosen to do it and if there was an option in the game to stop him I would have done so every time.

The point I am trying to make is that Anders was desperate. We can all make rightous statements about how we would never do something some terrible, but one truth remains. Non of us know what we are capable of when we are desperate. That is what makes humans (in my opnion) the most scary thing in the world. If you harrass a tiger you know it is going to eat you, if you do the same to a human there is no telling what they will do.

In the dragon age universe people scare me more than any demon. If you meet a demon you know they are planing to s**** you over. When you meet a person you have no idea what they will do.

And last, but not least a pro-mage statement: Mages are not dangerous because of there powers, they are dangerous because they are people.

[Heidenreich]

*sneeks in, kidnaps berelinde, runs away!*

[Dwarva]

This isn't exactly deep and meaningful but it made me giggle. I'm playing Legacy with friendmanced Anders, Grey Warden Bethany and Sebastian in my team. In quick succession I got the 'flirting Sebastian and Bethany' banter, then 'Anders and Sebastian arguing about the origins of darkspawn banter'. It made me think 'wow, if Bethany and Sebastian did get together that would certainly spawn some spirited family dinner conversations' xD

[gaurdian9sunshine]

 In the third act, Anders and Isabela have a banter convrosation about justice. Isabela asks him if he kills a bunch of innocent people, do they deserve justice and he says yes with a lump in his throte. The problem with the system is that the people in the chantry, the grand cleric and the sisters, they are not entirely innocent. They let the system go on even though mages were being raped and turned tranquil even after they passed their harrowing. Power corrupts, and templars have abused their power in Kirkwall. Maybe the ends don't justify the means, but I think in this case, they do.