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[berelinde]

MissRedZelda wrote...

But in destroying the Chantry, he killed so many innocents. How is that right? I'm sorry, but I don't condone terrorism. The ends don't justify the means.

Everyone always says that, but there is nothing to suggest that the Chantry was not empty of everyone except those who lived there at the time.

If BioWare wanted people to think that countless innocent lives were lost, they could have filled the scene with innocents. It was a pre-rendered cutscene, not live animation, so the animators were not under the constraints that they would have been had the scene been rendered by the game engine in real time. They had the technology to put several hundred more people in that scene, at least. Remeber the cutscene in DA:O where Bann Teagan calls Loghain out in front of Anora? That scene had well over a hundred nobles in it as well as resource-intensive dust flickering in the sunlight. They could have done the same for the Chantry. After all, the cinematic where Orsino charges the Qunari to give Hawke and friends a chance to sneak by had far more actors and far more dazzling graphical effects and unlike the Jenga Moment, Orsino's Charge *had* to be rendered by the game engine in real time because Hawke and Company were in it.

So, BioWare could have filled the scene with innocents to underline the brutality of Anders's action but they did not. There were six templars and Elthina in it, going about their evening tasks, blowing out the candles, putting away the sermon book, etc.

This will not prevent people from continuing to use the "slaughtered worshipers and orphans" argument. It's like the socialogical experiment where people are shown a photograph of a woman threatening a man with a knife. When asked to describe the photograph later, the vast majority of people will switch the genders and put the knife in the hands of the man. People see what they expect to see, and believe what they want to believe, not what they are actually shown.

To me, it seemed more like a military coup. Violent, but necessary.

Modifié par berelinde, 27 mai 2012 - 08:34 .

[Ryzaki]

Eh one could say the same about all the innocent mages killed during the ROA. I didn't see no templars killing no kids. Guess none died. (And no before anyone says anything about "no child killing." ME3 and DAO both had children killing. Some templars cornering young apostates and a quick fade to black would've been enough).

You don't see any one young being killed. Doesn't mean they weren't.

Most of the people in the Chantry in the evening would've been those sleeping there anyway.

Then again I don't agree with Anders decision to blow up the Chantry. Both sides were pretty nasty in that scenario. It's really a case of picking of picking the poison that doesn't bother me as much.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 mai 2012 - 08:53 .

[berelinde]

Not for nothing, but we are shown a cinematic of templars cutting down mages who are begging for mercy during the Last Straw. Granted, none of them are children, but it is unmistakable.

[Ryzaki]

Yeah...none of them are children though (or elves for that matter).

That doesn't mean there weren't any children there. Just like you don't see any elven mages in cutscenes during the ROA that aren't Orsino. (or at least I didn't notice any). Not being seen in cinematics doesn't make them nonexistent.

So yes I use the "well X isn't seen but..." on both sides of the equation. Templars killed innocents, Anders killed innocents. Neither side was lily white and free of the blood of innocents. Grey and Grey morality at it's best.

They both thought they were justified. And in a certain POV each group was. That doesn't make their actions any less heinous. (IMO anyway).

Some of my Hawkes side with the templars. Many of them sympathize with the mages but not enough to side with them. A few of them just don't GAF and others are as mage hating as jerkwads like Ker...whatever.

But I have fun with siding with both sides of the fence and can justify siding with either group easily so *shrugs*. I don't have a single character that agrees with and supports what Anders did though. Won't RP that.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 mai 2012 - 12:07 .

[Cantina]

Not to be rude at all here but using the whole “But he killed so many innocents” line gets old and does not hold any truth whatsoever simply because we do not know.

The cut scene showed Elthena, a handful of Templars and a sister, you could claim they were innocent, but come on I even know that is no true. Anders said early in Act 2, “I will make sure as few innocents as possible get hurt in the process.” Anders could have found some way to keep people out of the Chantry or had someone do it for him.

Bottom line is when the Chantry blew up in the cut scene there were no citizens or orphans hanging around. Beyond that I doubt Anders would be that cold-hearted to destroy a Chantry filled with children/citizens. His goal was to destroy the Chantry with the Templars and Grand Cleric inside along with all the other priests to insure the ROA was invoked to give Mages a fighting chance. If the Chantry was not destroy how many more Mages or citizens would have died under Meredith’s rein.

Until there is an itinerary of all those who died in the Chantry’s destruction there really is no need to keep using that poor line to try to make an argument. I have a hard time feeling sympathy towards pixel characters that my character has never met. As for the Grand Cleric, phiff, I wanted to stab her in Act 1.

[slashthedragon]

I wonder if Anders made sure that Sebastian was out of there XD

[Ryzaki]

On second thought. I'm not even trying to get into this timesink debate.

@Cantina: If you want to believe that feel free. I'm going to go with their being innocents in the Chantry. Why? Because there's plenty of reason to suspect there's some in there. Just like some go with templars killing elves and children even though you never see not a one die by a templars hand.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 mai 2012 - 01:31 .

[Cantina]

slashthedragon wrote...

I wonder if Anders made sure that Sebastian was out of there XD

Sh!t....I wish Seabass was in there..would have been happier.

[cowoline]

Cantina wrote...

Anders said early in Act 2, “I will make sure as few innocents as possible get hurt in the process.”

This... when dose he say that? Not that I don't believe you I just don't remember him saying that in any of my playthroughs.

Cantina wrote...

slashthedragon wrote...

I wonder if Anders made sure that Sebastian was out of there XD

Sh!t....I wish Seabass was in there..would have been happier.

As for this.... I really really really hope he didn't... When Sebastain talks to Fenris about wanting to turn in Anders and Merill I wanted to srangle Sebstian:devil: and kiss Fenris:kissing:.

If Anders did do this however this would prove that he(in some ways) is a better person than Sebastian. But that is probably just me having a problem with people who blindly following a conviction instead of improving upon it.

Modifié par cowoline, 28 mai 2012 - 02:55 .

[Cantina]

cowoline wrote...

This... when dose he say that? Not that I don't believe you I just don't remember him saying that in any of my playthroughs.

He does not say it on the friendship path (as far as I know) he says it on the rivalry path. Oh as I said before I never done the rivalry path, but have seen every bit of it on Youtube.

Modifié par Cantina, 28 mai 2012 - 07:48 .

[smallwhippet]

@Cantina: I've just done a rivalry path for the first time and I remember hearing something to that effect, although I can't think where exactly...

[xLeth]

anders is immortal

[Dwarva]

Saw this earlier and it made me think of Anders xD

[smallwhippet]

 

[Dwarva]

While his body is definitely pretty damn hot there......he sort of looks dead? Or....is he meant to look dead?

[MissRedZelda]

Is it just me, or do you think Adam Howden could probably play a live-action Anders? He'd just need to dye his hair blonde and wear contacts, cos Howden's a brunet and his eyes are grey.

[smallwhippet]

He's certainly pretty easy on the eye...*swoons*

[Dwarva]

I'm pretty sure this has been asked before but it's been bugging me - why does Anders offer Varric the pillow at the beginning of Act3? It seems like Hawke would have been a more appropriate choice on the friendship path? Or is there some background that I'm missing?

[CuriousArtemis]

Staarbux wrote...

I'm pretty sure this has been asked before but it's been bugging me - why does Anders offer Varric the pillow at the beginning of Act3? It seems like Hawke would have been a more appropriate choice on the friendship path? Or is there some background that I'm missing?

Well, he does come to the Hanged Man a lot and hangs out with Varric, so presumably the two are pretty good friends. But that's one of the reasons I don't like the Anders romance; he should give that damn pillow to HAWKE, damn it! And also there's that bugged scen in Act 3 in the Hanged Man when Anders acts very cold towards Hawke, which is like, WTF.  Ahh it annoys me just to think about it.

Modifié par motomotogirl, 06 juin 2012 - 03:33 .

[berelinde]

It was laziness. The Act 3 scene where Anders reappears was included because the devs wanted to show that even if the PC sent him away after Dissent, he's still in Kirkwall and still hanging out with Varric. As for the pillow, it was also laziness. It wouldn't have made sense to give the pillow to rival Hawke, so they had him give it to Varric for both. (sigh)

[Dwarva]

Ah. Thanks for clearing that up my lovelies. Just seemed so weird is all - I suppose I just had it in my head that, while Varric liked him more than the rest of the gang, he wasn't exactly besties with him yunno?

Ah well. Since I generally let him live I can keep my headcanon that he brings his pillow with him when he and MageHawke run out of Kirkwall together.

[berelinde]

You could have kept that as headcanon one way or another. Since Varric refuses to take it, all that happens if you kill Anders is that it winds up as somebody else's random "treasure" on their next pass through Darktown.

There's a thought for a future "junk" item. Anders's hand-embroidered pillow!

[Most Definitely Sane]

I think that it's good he tried to give the pillow to Varric.
Varric is his best friend, and basically, bros before hos.

He probably planned to give Hawke something, but couldn't get around to it because she/he would know something was up, if she/he hadn't figured it out already. When he was giving Varric the pillow, he probably didn't realize Hawke was behind him.

[esper]

I am with mostly sane in this. I can actually not see why he should give Hawke the pillow, it is a dead give away that something is up and it is clear that he didn't expect Hawke to walk in on the scene.

Varric is his best friend, living with Hawke or not, and has brigthen up and joked with Anders considerably. I don't see why he shouldn't attempt to say good bye to him, he knows that their friendship is ended the moment he blows up the chantry. Varric is a Kirkwaller and always be.

I don't want the pillow. The gesture behind it is something widely different than say Zevran's earring he attempted to give it up to Hawke I would feel that he was saying irrevocably farewell instead the 'I love you, and I am sorry, but I must do this' he is effectively saying to Hawke in that scene. Again: I DON'T want that pilow.

Modifié par esper, 08 juin 2012 - 10:33 .