57020 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

^^ No, I think that one was planned. If you listen closely to Anders's banter with Justice during Awakening, it does seem as if they're already talking about the issue.

And think about it. When do most mages give in to spirits/demons? When they're out of options. Even Wynne (she was dying/kinda dead). I could see Anders feeling like that after they assigned Rolan to him.

Maybe the tears of the fans were merely and added bonus?

[CuriousArtemis]

Cantina wrote...

OK, I've been thinking....

Does anyone else feel the Devs chose to screw up Anders (not deliberately) do to the amount of people who wanted a romance with him?

What do you mean? o.O  By making him merge with Justice?  I guess they wanted to make him more interesting than he was in Awakening.  I mean, he was pretty boring there, just a sort of cliche ladies man.  He is definitely more interesting and just a better character in general in DA2.  

It's sad that a boring character like that got chosen over a brooding hottie like Nathaniel, haha xD I would think more fans would have been clamoring for him to be a LI than snarky Anders.

[Ivucci]

Replaying Awakening after several months spent playing and pondering DA2 (I only played it sometime in December for the first time) is a grim experience. Much of what Anders says suddenly has this sharp bitter edge to it.

I think Mr. Gaider confirmed it had more or less been planned. Plus, there are pokes and hints all over Awakening. 15 minutes into the game Anders talks about justice already. Coincidence, or not.

berelinde wrote...
And think about it. When do most mages give in to spirits/demons? When they're out of options. Even Wynne (she was dying/kinda dead). I could see Anders feeling like that after they assigned Rolan to him.

I agree.
The official in-game story iirc is Anders wanted to help his friend, and that may have very well been a part of it, but I don't believe for one second it was just that. Something else must have happened prior to that, something substantial and significant (and bad) enough for Anders to make this tragically idiotic decision.

If the short story was specifically written in order to fill in this gap, then yes, it must be a hint. Still, I really wish the key event and the surrounding circumstances had not happened off camera.

I wasn't around BSN when Awakening came out so I don't actually know that many people wanted a romance with him

Modifié par Ivucci, 13 juin 2012 - 09:25 .

[cowoline]

This might just be me, but why is that many people consider his merging with Justice idiotic? I get get that it ended REALLY badly and that is the biggest mistake Anders have ever made, but it is like people assume he would have know from the start.

From what happened with Wynne in Origins I really didn't get the impression that merging with a spirit was a bad idea.

But maybe I am just misinterpreting people?

[smallwhippet]

I think that it's just the sad law of unintended consequences coming into play. It needn't necessarily have been a disastrous idea: Anders simply had no grasp of the degree to which his own anger would effect the nature of Justice. Ah, hindsight...

[smallwhippet]

berelinde wrote...

Did you leave Darktown and come back? I think I had to do that for one game.

Ooh, thanks! I'll give it a go!

[berelinde]

smallwhippet wrote...

I think that it's just the sad law of unintended consequences coming into play. It needn't necessarily have been a disastrous idea: Anders simply had no grasp of the degree to which his own anger would effect the nature of Justice. Ah, hindsight...

That was probably part of it. He probably saw it as a lot of convergent reasons to do it at the time. His personal situation was grim and looked unlikely to improve. The friend who had helped him adjust to the Warden lifestyle was off doing Warden things (because no way would my Warden have let him do that - she had been seriously tempted by Mouse during her Harrowing and *knew* how close she had come to disaster). His friend Justice needed help. And it was a chance for him to make a difference. He did it.

[CuriousArtemis]

I think it feels idiotic because unlike Wynne's merging, Justice was a fully fledged and familiar entity, a real "person" if you will, so it's a bit weird to "merge" with him. I mean think of all the people you know in your life and imagine LITERALLY MERGING YOURSELF with that person. The two of you combined into one body. Forever.

Again, this was not just some random spell where Anders calls forth an unknown spirit and takes it into his being; this is him merging with a person he considers a friend and knowingly giving up his individual sense of self.

It's batty. It's totally Anders lol

[berelinde]

A lot of things seem idiotic in hindsight. When asked about the long-term implications of some colossally stupid actions, I bet a lot of people would say "I never thought I'd live to find out."

Wynne's merging was different. Partially because Wynne was different. Not only was she content in her role, but her rank in the Circle entitled her to freedoms most mages could only dream of. She had no vast reservoir of rage for the spirit to unwittingly drop into. Anders did have that vast reservoir of rage. He was unaware of its depth. To be fair to him, not everyone is perfectly self-aware. That kind of honesty requires maturity and strength of character that Anders may never have possessed. That doesn't make him evil. It makes him human.

There's nothing to say that Faith wasn't as fully formed and defined as Justice. It's just that their natures are different. Faith is a deeply personal thing whose audience is limited to an individual. Faith is also a patient thing. It comes when invoked, but it does not impose. Justice demands that its influence be felt. Justice cannot stand by and watch bad things happen. To be true to itself, Justice *must* act.

It's hard to say what was going through Anders's mind when he decided that offering Justice new digs was a good idea. Player perception aside, has DG ever stated definitively that Anders knew that his own discrete persona would cease to exist prior to the merge?

[smallwhippet]

I suspect that this may be an unpopular view with some, but I think that Anders is in many ways a better person for merging with Justice: selfless and compassionate rather than hedonistic and shallow. Of course it ultimately all goes horribly wrong, but I still much prefer his DA2 incarnation to that of Awakenings.

btw @Berelinde - really enjoyed the new chapter!

Modifié par smallwhippet, 13 juin 2012 - 08:45 .

[Gyrefalcon]

Remember that Anders has been pulled away from his family and lost everyone and nearly everything he ever cared for. By merging with his friend, Justice could never be taken away from him. He would never be alone again, he could safely care about Justice because those emotions would be hidden.

I believe Anders had a lot of good reasons to accept a permanent joining with a spirit. Mind you, it didn't turn out the way he expected, but it definitely looked like a good plan on paper.

[Cantina]

Gyrefalcon wrote...

Remember that Anders has been pulled away from his family and lost everyone and nearly everything he ever cared for. By merging with his friend, Justice could never be taken away from him. He would never be alone again, he could safely care about Justice because those emotions would be hidden.

I believe Anders had a lot of good reasons to accept a permanent joining with a spirit. Mind you, it didn't turn out the way he expected, but it definitely looked like a good plan on paper.

Yes, that's how I feel about it.

With my Hawke (friendship romance path) it makes things more complex and hard for Anders to accept that someone-a real person, is willing to be with him no matter what.

I'm not hundred percent on board with the writers choice to do this but, well, there it is. In game I am not going to have my character be some chastising mother and shake my finger in his face. The way I see it is no matter if you choose the friendship or rivalry path Anders seem to regret his merger.

I'm just curious now what the future holds for Anders and my Hawke.

[Gyrefalcon]

Cantina wrote...


Yes, that's how I feel about it.

With my Hawke (friendship romance path) it makes things more complex and hard for Anders to accept that someone-a real person, is willing to be with him no matter what.

I'm not hundred percent on board with the writers choice to do this but, well, there it is. In game I am not going to have my character be some chastising mother and shake my finger in his face. The way I see it is no matter if you choose the friendship or rivalry path Anders seem to regret his merger.

I'm just curious now what the future holds for Anders and my Hawke.

      Given how most people have treated him just for being a mage, I am sure having someone even remotely think of him as a possible romantic interest after merging with a spirit really threw him for a loop.  I hope that they will have some kind of conclusion mentioned in the next one to let us know what became of our Hawke and Anders pairings, or any other option as well.  I know they feel the story was complete, but it has the feel of a minor chord that is not resolved into a major one.  The tale has been told but there is a sense of it not being quite fulfilling. 

Modifié par Gyrefalcon, 16 juin 2012 - 02:25 .

[ladyofpayne]

[berelinde]

Aww.... (sniff)

That's so sad. Especially the bruises on the arms.

[Gyrefalcon]

Oh! Lady of Payne, that is a beautiful pic! (I can't tell you how many times I tried to make out what color, material, and pattern that pillow was that Anders was attempting to pass off in the game.)

And I missed the bruises until you pointed them out berelinde! Yet, the young Anders here appears more stoic and hopeful than beaten down. It's a great version of his arrival at the Circle. Props to the creator!

[Nilfalasiel]

smallwhippet wrote...

I suspect that this may be an unpopular view with some, but I think that Anders is in many ways a better person for merging with Justice: selfless and compassionate rather than hedonistic and shallow. Of course it ultimately all goes horribly wrong, but I still much prefer his DA2 incarnation to that of Awakenings.

Actually, what I'm getting from his merger with Justice is not more compassion but a LOT more intransigence. Justice has absolutely nothing to do with compassion. Vengeance even less. *points to Ella* Look how close that came to going wrong. Or, for some people, did go wrong.

In fact, I'd say that Anders' compassionate side isn't there because of Justice but in spite of him. He was already a compassionate person in Awakening. I mean, if you let him leave after first encountering him, he actually comes back of his own accord because he couldn't leave people in the lurch. Had he been simply hedonistic, shallow and selfish, he'd have run the hell away. He's also one of the few who disapprove of torching Amaranthine, and will not approve even if you try to persuade him (unlike Sigrun or Justice).

[gaurdian9sunshine]

 I hated how mages are treated, even in DA: origins. Anders is my cannon LI and is one of the saddest stories I have ever heard. 

[Dwarva]

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

 I hated how mages are treated, even in DA: origins. Anders is my cannon LI and is one of the saddest stories I have ever heard. 

I agree. I don't personally agree with how Anders resolves the mage/templar situation but for some reason his childhood story really tugs at my heart. I'm also reading Asunder right now which just gives me TemplarRage[tm]. I know it might get better but I'm finding it difficult to sympathise with a Templar character the more they tell us how mages are treated at The Circle. When I first played DAO I didn't fully appreciate how badly they were treated...

[dahoughtonuk]

Play awakening, look at Justice's behaviour and you will soon understand he was already on the downward path, corrupted by his desires to end the pride demon.

Anders wants complete independence which is another problem.

Basically two people who aren't truly aware of themselves or each other. If they were despite being friends they would not have merged.

[gaurdian9sunshine]

Staarbux wrote...

gaurdian9sunshine wrote...

 I hated how mages are treated, even in DA: origins. Anders is my cannon LI and is one of the saddest stories I have ever heard. 

I agree. I don't personally agree with how Anders resolves the mage/templar situation but for some reason his childhood story really tugs at my heart. I'm also reading Asunder right now which just gives me TemplarRage[tm]. I know it might get better but I'm finding it difficult to sympathise with a Templar character the more they tell us how mages are treated at The Circle. When I first played DAO I didn't fully appreciate how badly they were treated...

When Cullen said in DA:2, "Mages cannot be treated like people," it just pissed me off. I could never stomach to side with the templars even on one playthrough. I read Asunder too, and I hope that it will set the stage for DA3.

Modifié par gaurdian9sunshine, 22 juin 2012 - 05:56 .

[Cantina]

When it comes to hating The Chantry, I am at the front of the line. I never cared for the system in Origins, when Dragon Age 2 came around; well I pretty much was in full rage mode. The system may have worked way back when it first was started. However, over the years the corruption of that system made its way out to the public’s attention.

After reading “Asunder” I have to say, I do not trust the Divine, she up to something. Personally, I think she is out to save her own ass. If she really cared about the Mages as she claims, she should have stepped in sooner.

I will say Hawke being involved in such an uprising makes sense, the Warden less so. I am curious as to what will happen in Dragon age 3. Gosh, I hope we can slaughter Templars and Seekers, because I am certainly all for it.

Anders was right (need a T-shirt that says it) "The time has come to act, there can be no half measures."

[gaurdian9sunshine]

Cantina wrote...

When it comes to hating The Chantry, I am at the front of the line. I never cared for the system in Origins, when Dragon Age 2 came around; well I pretty much was in full rage mode. The system may have worked way back when it first was started. However, over the years the corruption of that system made its way out to the public’s attention.

After reading “Asunder” I have to say, I do not trust the Divine, she up to something. Personally, I think she is out to save her own ass. If she really cared about the Mages as she claims, she should have stepped in sooner.

I will say Hawke being involved in such an uprising makes sense, the Warden less so. I am curious as to what will happen in Dragon age 3. Gosh, I hope we can slaughter Templars and Seekers, because I am certainly all for it.

Anders was right (need a T-shirt that says it) "The time has come to act, there can be no half measures."

I would defently buy that t-shirt. The divine didn't want to free mages, but change the system. 

[Cantina]

<Crosses Fingers>

Hope this works....

http://www.cafepress...umber=661705175

[berelinde]

^^ I ordered one. I hope you don't mind.