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[Dwarva]

ladyofpayne wrote...


http://archiveofouro...chapters/454027

Yep - that was my problem. I was looking in the wrong damn place.

But the fic I read must have just been a one shot from that universe because it was a self contained drabble type thing.

Thank you!!

[berelinde]

Lots of Anders hate on the forums this morning. Well, more than usual. It's depressing. And I can't even wear my Anders shirt yet because it's still in Indiana.

[Gyrefalcon]

Wait, did they release that Viva the Revolution Anders shirt?!

[berelinde]

No, but Cantina came up with a "Anders was right. The time has come to act. There can be no half measures." shirt at Cafe Press. It's awesome, comes in 8 colors and a full range of sizes.

If I can find that Viva the Revolution image and if the artist has given permission to use it, it would be easy enough to make up a Viva the Revolution shirt. The shirts are not cheap, however. With shipping, they're over $40, even for the smaller sizes.

[Cantina]

berelinde wrote...

Lots of Anders hate on the forums this morning. Well, more than usual. It's depressing. And I can't even wear my Anders shirt yet because it's still in Indiana.

I think people know only half the story and/or completely blind sided. Not expecting everyone to march in the "Anders was right" parade. However when I read reasons as to why they don't, well, it makes me shake my head........a lot.

Modifié par Cantina, 27 juin 2012 - 03:26 .

[Naqey]

Cantina wrote...

I think people know only half the story and/or completely blind sided. Not expecting everyone to march in the "Anders was right" parade. However when I read reasons as to why they don't, well, it makes me shake my head........a lot.

I don't think it's a matter of knowing only half the story/being blind sided. I've found many Anders haters to have very sensible reasons to (not hate, I won't say that) disapprove of his actions. It's a matter of fundamental convictions, I guess, whether the ends justify the means, what measures are justified to to work towards what goal.

But then... the more I'm confronted with full-on Anders-hate, the more I seem to like and appreciate him... so I either don't mind, or just open the page of my favourite Anders deviant art fan group to compensate...

[Cantina]

Naqey wrote...

Cantina wrote...

I think people know only half the story and/or completely blind sided. Not expecting everyone to march in the "Anders was right" parade. However when I read reasons as to why they don't, well, it makes me shake my head........a lot.

I don't think it's a matter of knowing only half the story/being blind sided. I've found many Anders haters to have very sensible reasons to (not hate, I won't say that) disapprove of his actions. It's a matter of fundamental convictions, I guess, whether the ends justify the means, what measures are justified to to work towards what goal.

But then... the more I'm confronted with full-on Anders-hate, the more I seem to like and appreciate him... so I either don't mind, or just open the page of my favourite Anders deviant art fan group to compensate...

Well some, sure have sensible reasons, speaking about the "other" crowd. Sides, I do my best to bite my tongue and not engage in a discussion about if it was right or wrong, I tend to turn green.

[Nilfalasiel]

The problem with wearing an Anders t-shirt nowadays is that people who have no idea what DA is may think you mean the real-life Anders.

You know, the Norwegian supremacist wacko.

Real life, why must you suck the fun out of virtual entertainment?

[berelinde]

Cantina wrote...

Well some, sure have sensible reasons, speaking about the "other" crowd. Sides, I do my best to bite my tongue and not engage in a discussion about if it was right or wrong, I tend to turn green.

Yeah, I keep trying to limit my exposure to that, but it never quite works. It's like rubbernecking at the scene of an accident. You know it's a bad idea to look, you don't want to look, and you look anyway.

[berelinde]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

The problem with wearing an Anders t-shirt nowadays is that people who have no idea what DA is may think you mean the real-life Anders.

You know, the Norwegian supremacist wacko.

Real life, why must you suck the fun out of virtual entertainment?

That's why I got my shirt extra-roomy. I can wear it as a nightshirt. No one will see it but the family, and they know darned well who I mean.

But yeah, I'm still bummed that real life had to be so cruel.

[EricHVela]

I just think that Anders is confused about the lines between Justice, Necessity and Revenge.

His actions seemed to actually come from a motive of Revenge with the self-rationalization of Justice and Necessity.

(I still liked the character, and I liked that he acted like he did.)

Killing a dangerous animal that hurt someone is necessary.
Hurting someone that wronged you is revenge.
Holding someone responsible for their actions is justice.

Which did Anders do?

[berelinde]

^^By your definition, justice. If you want a debate, you'll have to wait until tonight. I did my wall of text in reply to your other thread and have run out of lunch hour, but it comes down to this. Elthina was the commander-in-chief of the largest standing army in the Free Marches. Her lack of interest in the actions of her direct subordinates led to atrocities that undermined the already fragile balance between what is necessary (educating mages so that they could protect themselves from demons and guarding them to protect them from people who fear them) and what is self-serving (templars abusing their charges, treating them as inhuman, and making them tranquil so they would be easier to rape). Holding her personally responsible for the duties she failed to perform is justice.

[EricHVela]

berelinde wrote...

^^By your definition, justice. If you want a debate, you'll have to wait until tonight. I did my wall of text in reply to your other thread and have run out of lunch hour, but it comes down to this. Elthina was the commander-in-chief of the largest standing army in the Free Marches. Her lack of interest in the actions of her direct subordinates led to atrocities that undermined the already fragile balance between what is necessary (educating mages so that they could protect themselves from demons and guarding them to protect them from people who fear them) and what is self-serving (templars abusing their charges, treating them as inhuman, and making them tranquil so they would be easier to rape). Holding her personally responsible for the duties she failed to perform is justice.

Did he hold her responsible or was she an excuse to take revenge on the Chantry and Templars?

You can claim it was justice, but the fallout seemed like it was brimming with apathy for whoever else was caught in the act. I think revenge is the only thing that could blind someone so much as to ignore the consequences upon those that were not part of the struggle and did not deserve to be pulled into it.

[Gamergirl32]

ReggarBlane wrote...

I just think that Anders is confused about the lines between Justice, Necessity and Revenge.

His actions seemed to actually come from a motive of Revenge with the self-rationalization of Justice and Necessity.

(I still liked the character, and I liked that he acted like he did.)

Killing a dangerous animal that hurt someone is necessary.
Hurting someone that wronged you is revenge.
Holding someone responsible for their actions is justice.

Which did Anders do?

i think it was vengance, the chantry is the organization that takes responsibility for templars, so he was getting back at the templars

[Nilfalasiel]

Anders himself explains that, after the merger, Justice became Vengeance. At the end of the game, he also says that justice and vengeance have become too intertwined for him, and he can no longer tell them apart. So his original intention was to seek justice, but the actual result of his actions is revenge/vengeance.

[berelinde]

ReggarBlane wrote...
Did he hold her responsible or was she an excuse to take revenge on the Chantry and Templars?

You can claim it was justice, but the fallout seemed like it was brimming with apathy for whoever else was caught in the act. I think revenge is the only thing that could blind someone so much as to ignore the consequences upon those that were not part of the struggle and did not deserve to be pulled into it.

Anders did hold her responsible for the inaction that was claiming dozens of innocent lives.

You can claim it was vengeance, but he tried for three years and wrote her countless letters in a vain attempt to force her to take responsibility for the actions of her subordinates. To me, that sounds as if he knows perfectly well who was ultimately in charge of Meredith and her templars and was exhausting every other means of obtaining justice for the countless mages who were suffering because of her inaction. She chose to ignore the consequences of her inaction upon the inmates of the Gallows, the families that the templars were murdering *on suspicion* of harboring apostates, and upon the citizens of Kirkwall who were not part of the struggle and did not deserve to be pulled into it.

The chantry was a self-contained building. If you go upstairs, you will find the living area. You will find the beds and the personal effects of those who were living in the chantry. You will see the kitchen where they took their meals. There were never hundreds of people living there. It was just Elthina and a few others. Had Anders wanted revenge, he could have struck when the chantry was full: during the day at worship. Instead, he struck at night. Elthina was wandering around upstairs putting away her books. The templars were going around blowing out candles or some such. There were a total of seven people in that building. It was a pre-rendered cutscene and did not rely on game resources. The designers could have packed the place to the rafters if they wanted you to think there were more people killed.

Elthina was not an excuse for something he wanted to do anyway. She was the reason it was necessary.

*Anders* was an excuse for something *Meredith* wanted to do, however. She had an opportunity to execute him. He knew that he deserved death for what he did. He doesn't try to talk his way out of it or duck out the back. She doesn't care about justice. She wants to kill all the mages and is using him as an excuse to do it. 

Now on to the section that is actually speculation on my part. Elthina knew what Anders was doing and let it happen. If you complete "Justice" in Act 3, Anders asks Hawke to distract Elthina while he plants the bomb. During the conversation that follows, while Hawke, Anders, and Elthina are talking, she suggests strongly that she knew what he was up to. Why would she allow it? Maybe she thought it was the will of the Maker. Maybe she thought his conscience would get the better of him. Maybe she knew that she had to die in order to bring the situation to a head. Maybe even she knew that justice with a little J demanded her death. 

Modifié par berelinde, 27 juin 2012 - 07:39 .

[berelinde]

Just finished reading Panacea. Sadly, it seems to be abandoned. Hope I'm wrong and the writer updates. I'm not sure about some of the characterizations, but it's still a good read. There's one typo in six chapters. I wish my record was that good.

[cowoline]

ReggarBlane wrote...

I just think that Anders is confused about the lines between Justice, Necessity and Revenge.

His actions seemed to actually come from a motive of Revenge with the self-rationalization of Justice and Necessity.

(I still liked the character, and I liked that he acted like he did.)

Killing a dangerous animal that hurt someone is necessary.
Hurting someone that wronged you is revenge.
Holding someone responsible for their actions is justice.

Which did Anders do?

I'd say all of them. That would also explain why people view this so differently. What weighs more from each persons point of view.

[Cantina]

I think most just forget the fact The Chantry and The Templars were heading down the path of corruption long before Anders or the Mage troubles started.

Basically they started sticking their noses in places were it just does not belong.

As for Elthina, well every time a problem came up and was told about it, all she was simply wave her hand and expect a miracle to happen to fix it.

[MissRedZelda]

I still think there was no excuse for Anders' actions. He was the one who was too blind sided by revenge.

I miss the old, funny, flirty ladies man Anders :-(

[berelinde]

No one can convince you of what you are not willing to believe. No one can dissuade you from believing what you are determined to believe. When it comes to emotions, facts are irrelevant. Fact of life. Moving on...

[Gyrefalcon]

@MissRedZelda: Take the comments from the new one and play Awakenings again. It is chilling how much of it is the same, he just tried to cover up his emotions with humor. I miss old Anders as well, but looking back with the new information, I don't think I knew the "real" Anders as much as I thought I did. I have to give the writers a lot of props for the effort! I may be sad about the direction sometimes, but the core of Anders was the same. You can see it once when he talks to Varric at the Hanged Man and you come in. He is laughing and sounds like his old self. I wish they gave us a few more glimpses of the old him to contrast his increasing moodiness as the game progressed. (Mostly I wanted a DLC that gave him back his cat)

[cowoline]

Cantina wrote...


I think most just forget the fact The Chantry and The Templars were heading down the path of corruption long before Anders or the Mage troubles started.

Basically they started sticking their noses in places were it just does not belong.

As for Elthina, well every time a problem came up and was told about it, all she was simply wave her hand and expect a miracle to happen to fix it.

Agreed. I still hold Elthina responsible for Seamus Dumar's death. My Hawke told her what Patrice was doing and she still refused interfered. She was as responsible for the Qunari attack as Patrice and Isabela. Old kindhearted fool.

MissRedZelda wrote...

I still think there was no excuse for Anders' actions. He was the one who was too blind sided by revenge.

I miss the old, funny, flirty ladies man Anders :-(

As for this. Play awakening again, choose the insulting options and you will see Anders' true colours. He is just as angry as in DA II, he is just not motivated to do anything about it.

Modifié par cowoline, 29 juin 2012 - 05:10 .

[ladyofpayne]

Blow up Chantry and Elthina was necessary. It was kick to system. World needs to see that people can't threat mages as objects any more.
If Anders kills Meredith Chantry just give Kirkwall Right of Annulment and give new Kight Commander.

[ladyofpayne]

Is there mod for naked Anders and Hawke?