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[Fox In The Box]

The absolute worst for me is forcing him to help you annull the Circle. Or theoretically at least, I could never muster the nerve to actually do it, but I saw the whole thing on YouTube. Ow, my heart.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 05 septembre 2012 - 08:58 .

[Renmiri1]

Fox In The Box wrote...

The absolute worst for me is forcing him to help you annull the Circle. Or theoretically at least, I could never muster the nerve to actually do it, but I saw the whole thing on YouTube. Ow, my heart.

Haven't done that one yet, want to record the kiss so might do it soon. But having Anders saying to you  "I loved you once" and then having him attack you .. Oweee! 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 05 septembre 2012 - 09:11 .

[cowoline]

berelinde wrote...

@cowoline: Yes, executing Anders is a valid way to play the game. In one respect, I do enjoy it because it just *hurts*. As in, heart-clenching, eyes-tearing-up-at-work hurts. When people post pics of people doing nasty, sadistic things to him, it doesn't have the same effect, because it's just people being vicious. When it's the execution itself, especially when it's clear that the artist put some time, effort, and considerable talent into it, it hits me straight in the feels. It provokes the same kind emotional reaction I had when Alistair sacrificed himself in DA:O. Of course, it really helps that we have the option of not *forcing* it to end that way. In both cases, a happy ending is possible (at least for a friendly romanced Anders), so it's fun to make a save, get through the catharsis, and then reload for that happy ending.

I know, which is why I am trying to delude myself:P Even did it once to see what Sebastian would say. Broke my heart and one more thing, where is my instant kill/or **** slap Sebastian option? Nice enough character, but he becomes such a hypocritical ass at the end (in my personal opinion at least)

[cowoline]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Fox In The Box wrote...

The absolute worst for me is forcing him to help you annull the Circle. Or theoretically at least, I could never muster the nerve to actually do it, but I saw the whole thing on YouTube. Ow, my heart.

Haven't done that one yet, want to record the kiss so might do it soon. But having Anders saying to you  "I loved you once" and then having him attack you .. Oweee! 

Agreed... could never go all the way. got to the kiss and then went back to an earlier save to side with mages instead. Sorry templars, my heart was won by mages.<3

[NRieh]

so it's fun to make a save, get through the catharsis, and then reload for that happy ending.

Is it?..

Tastes differ, I know. But I can't do such things. And yeah, I think I remember that it's "just a videogame" we are talking about. Best thing I can do on seeing one of those pics - telling myself that it was just Hawke's nightmare.

[smallwhippet]

I don't think I could bring myself to kill him deliberately. I was appalled, when I thought I'd dodged the issue by sending him away, to find him waiting on the Templar hall steps with those hard words...

I dreamt about him for the first time two days ago, rather to my surprise. He was sad and lovely and unattainable. *sobs*

Modifié par smallwhippet, 06 septembre 2012 - 09:57 .

[berelinde]

Nrieh wrote...

so it's fun to make a save, get through the catharsis, and then reload for that happy ending.

Is it?..

Tastes differ, I know. But I can't do such things. And yeah, I think I remember that it's "just a videogame" we are talking about. Best thing I can do on seeing one of those pics - telling myself that it was just Hawke's nightmare.

Think of it as watching a crushingly tragic movie where you have the opportunity to replace the ending with another that is happier, but still has a few tears. The knowledge that the devastating ending is possible makes you appreciate the happy ending more.

But, as you say, tastes differ. I prefer sweet candy that has a bit of a sour or bitter edge to it, but fiance likes his sugar straight up. 

And no, I don't usually kill Anders. I've only done it twice. Once with a Hawke who was truly a loathsome human being and worthy of execution herself and once with a more merciful Hawke who had rivaled Anders and who felt death was more humane than forcing broken!Anders to side with the templars. Every other playthrough, Anders is alive, well, and in Hawke's loving company.

[Renmiri1]

@berelinde - I totally get it, just makes the "sugar" feel more sweet.

On another topic.. Just how good of a "friend" was Justice to Anders ? I'm starting to think they were lovers before the merge...

[NRieh]

I prefer sweet candy that has a bit of a sour or bitter edge to it, but fiance likes his sugar straight up.

I guess I'm yet to understand how can Anders' arc (any of variation) be considered "sugar"...

Just how good of a "friend" was Justice to Anders ? I'm starting to think they were lovers before the merge...

You can take it as headcanon, I guess. But I'd rather not.

[Amirit]

All this talking about Anders made me think about the LI in the game more. And I came to an obvious though terrible conclusion - my love to Fenris (and I do love that character) is pure mindless emotions of an "inner teenager". Once again - I find Fenris irresistible. Yet, if you compare him side by side with Anders - he is loosing at every step. Even if I will be banned from Fenris topic forever, I have to say it.
Just major points:

Fenris lives as a slave, not even thinking of running away (despite regular slaves rebellions, the idea still never crosses his mind)
At the same time Anders (raised practically in slavery himself) runs away 7 times! (Note: every time he was captured he did not kill a single templar - he was not a killer in any way).

Fenris: finally escaped (accidently, was left out) and first thing he does - kills those who saved his life and taught him to be free (big tragedy, no doubts here, and if we remember Sten - nothing new for Saheren. Still a murder is a murder)
Anders: escaped for the last time and become a Grey Warden, fighting darkspawn, saving countless lives and becoming a hero.

Fenris: came to Kirkwall to stay in convenient enough location for fighting bounty hunters sent for him.
Anders: came to Kirkwall - well known templars nest, extremely dangerous for him, to save his friend.

Fenris: in Kirkwall lives alone in self-pity and hatred, drinking, gambling and killing occasional BHs, sent after him. Totally ignoring elves problems.
Anders: running a clinic for poor (at least half of refugees are owe him their lives) and fighting for freedom of his people (helping many to escape as only a part of it). (Note: anyone saying "he keeps that clinic only to have a place to hide" simply never ever worked a day in a hospital)

Anders has every right to despise Fenris and Fenrise's hatered towards Anders looks like a total branwashing thing. Yet, I still find Fenris attractive! I need help.  One good thing is - I do respect Anders. More and more so.

Modifié par Amirit, 07 septembre 2012 - 12:21 .

[cowoline]

Renmiri1 wrote...

@berelinde - I totally get it, just makes the "sugar" feel more sweet.

On another topic.. Just how good of a "friend" was Justice to Anders ? I'm starting to think they were lovers before the merge...

Corpes + Love = totally digusting!

My disgust aside, I don't think so. I think we tend to make everything a romantic relation, but you don't need to be in love to sacrifice your self and there are many aspects of love. After all even respect can be seen as a form of love.

[berelinde]

@Amirit: You know, I've never really sat back and done a side-by-side comparison like that. What I'm seeing is a pattern of self-destructive behavior on Fenris's part. Fear of failure invokes paralysis. I've been trying hard to cultivate a greater appreciation for the character, but I keep stumbling over the same points again and again. What, precisely, makes him attractive?

With Anders, it's easy enough. You've got most of it listed there, but there's also the sense of vulnerability and even the neediness. He doesn't even pretend that his world doesn't revolve around Hawke... as much as his world is ever his. His cause will always come first, so Hawkes who don't share his goals may feel that his devotion is lacking. Hawkes who *do* share his goals get to enjoy the camaraderie of working together to make a better world as well as his adoration as a lover and a helpmate, though.

I wonder how much physical attractiveness factors into the equation. Fenris probably has a slight advantage there, depending on your tastes. He's certainly more exotic.

There's no point in mentioning whether one character is whinier than the other. They're evenly matched on that score, but affection for the character makes it a lot more tolerable.

[Renmiri1]

Fenris reminds me too much of rl racists and bigots. He focus on hating mages a lot more than he focuses on helping slaves or doing anything against slavery. Anders is not "anti-templar" until the very end. He spends most of the game being pro-mage and helping mage and non-mage alike, not ranting that templars must die.

As for corpse romance ya yuck.. I just thought that no one would accept such a merge with a spirit so willingly.. Made me think how Anders gives his all to Hawke, so maybe he did it before to Justice.

Anders does mention that he had never dared fall in love before Hawke though so maybe Justice was just a friend / common cause ally.

Modifié par Renmiri1, 06 septembre 2012 - 11:53 .

[Amirit]

In my hadcanon that merging with Justice was in part of Anderses natural careless kindness (habit to help without thinking things through) and in part realization that "something must be done but I am in no way any revolutionist". Meant, to pull something that big he clearly needed a serious help. And since Justice itself still had no clue how that world works - the result was tragic.

[Renmiri1]

Amirit wrote...

In my hadcanon that merging with Justice was in part of Anderses natural careless kindness (habit to help without thinking things through) and in part realization that "something must be done but I am in no way any revolutionist". Meant, to pull something that big he clearly needed a serious help. And since Justice itself still had no clue how that world works - the result was tragic.

Good point. Anders does have that "save drowning kitty only to get scratched" look about him 

[NRieh]

my love to Fenris (and I do love that character) is pure mindless emotions of an "inner teenager". Once again - I find Fenris irresistible

Heh. Because Fenris was written this way - to make "inner" (and "outer" 8P) teenagers loose their mind. I'm not saying that all who prefer him are "silly girls" or something like that, but those two were definetely targeted at different kind of players.

Fenris is a "dream LI" if you don't look for anything "extra" from romance character. Pretty face, stylish look, awesome voice actor, troubled past - have Thane Krios..oh wait...it's wrong fandome.. I mean Fenris.

If you followed my not that very long DA2 history (started at page 2221 of current thread, I think) - you could have noticed that my getting close with Anders was a random chance (but you may call it Fate as well). I did not believe that I'd find anything good for me in this game at all, so my thoughts were "well, at least this one is handsome, sexy and I think I like that voice actor". But I did not have proper rival score with Fenris, so - friendly Anders...happened. And now I can't imagine any romance arc that could work better for me. It's 100% headcanon. It has enough of romance and tenderness, it has enough of passion, it is directly tied into story and it is far from "sugar sweet", and" fluffy everafter".

It's probably even stronger than ME1-3 Alenko faithful femShep. And I thought nothing can beat Kaidan for me (forgive me, dear kaidanite lurkers). I can't directly compare characters, but DA2 at least did not require 4 months of painful frustration, denying game content, headcanoning and lore digging to make ANY kind of possible "everafter"...


As for reasons for Anders+Justice to merge.... a lot of it is left open to headcanons. I don't think that spirits have an option to experience directly any kind of human feelings. Justice lines from DAA hint at that, and I don't think it's a good idea to "humanize" him much. He's an "essence" of...well, Justice (initially). Both had no idea what would come of merge - neither had such an experience.   

Modifié par Nrieh, 07 septembre 2012 - 10:32 .

[Amirit]

I am waaay past that outer-teenager And when I was, I think I had too much sense to be bound to this type of guys (or so I remember ) But in the fantasy world...

Funny bug: no matter if I flirt with Fenris or not, even after Anders moved in, Hawks mother always says "An elven slave? Maker, I hope you know what you are doing". Like there was a night with Fenris.
Guess, I romanced him too many times and game stuck with that flag

[Fox In The Box]

Amirit wrote...

I am waaay past that outer-teenager And when I was, I think I had too much sense to be bound to this type of guys (or so I remember ) But in the fantasy world...

Funny bug: no matter if I flirt with Fenris or not, even after Anders moved in, Hawks mother always says "An elven slave? Maker, I hope you know what you are doing". Like there was a night with Fenris.
Guess, I romanced him too many times and game stuck with that flag

That's not connected with Fenris, but with letting Orana work for you as your servant.

[NRieh]

That's not connected with Fenris, but with letting Orana work for you as your servant.

Was going to say same thing, but already answered. About Fenris(&Merrill, I guess) there is a line about "strange elven friends".

Strange thing - she does not say a thing about Anders. Though...she must have something on her mind about her child following her footsteps..I mean SHE knows how it is to fell in love with an apostate mage...could give some first-hand experience hints..

The only "family member" who mentions him is Bodhan(and Sandal seems to like him). Orana stays quite. Probably could miss something, but on my current PT I click everyone and everything all the time. Already found couple of initially missed dialogues. Eg Isabella at Hangman interested about how does it work with Anders&Justice, and also Bodhan's lines about Anders and I did not know Cullen has something to say. That's almost end of chapter 2.

[Renmiri1]

Nrieh wrote...

Fenris is a "dream LI" if you don't look for anything "extra" from romance character. Pretty face, stylish look, awesome voice actor, troubled past - have Thane Krios..oh wait...

Thane is my chosen LI for ME. Which turned out "wonderful" wehn ME3 came and killed him and killed his personality. He is actually very mature, has a son, was married.. I don't think he is a teen hearthtrob, I certainly see no teens on the Thane LI thread, just the opposite, most of us are old geezers with husbands and kids 

Nrieh wrote...

 Anders...happened. And now I can't imagine any romance arc that could work better for me. It's 100% headcanon. It has enough of romance and tenderness, it has enough of passion, it is directly tied into story and it is far from "sugar sweet", and" fluffy everafter".

It's probably even stronger than ME1-3 Alenko faithful femShep. And I thought nothing can beat Kaidan for me (forgive me, dear kaidanite lurkers).

Same here. Anders is now my "top" LI and it took me completely by surprise. I went into DA2 fully prepared to hate the game as much as I hate ME3. Never thought I'd get "caught" by a character I barely liked in Awakenings (I had played a bit of DAA before DA2 and thought the mage was just comic relief).

Nrieh wrote...
As for reasons for Anders+Justice to merge.... a lot of it is left open to headcanons. I don't think that spirits have an option to experience directly any kind of human feelings. Justice lines from DAA hint at that, and I don't think it's a good idea to "humanize" him much. He's an "essence" of...well, Justice (initially). Both had no idea what would come of merge - neither had such an experience.   

Ya, that makes sense. Though I like to think Anders and Justice should have had more common sense!

[Renmiri1]

Nrieh wrote...

The only "family member" who mentions him is Bodhan(and Sandal seems to like him). Orana stays quite. Probably could miss something, but on my current PT I click everyone and everything all the time. Already found couple of initially missed dialogues. Eg Isabella at Hangman interested about how does it work with Anders&Justice, and also Bodhan's lines about Anders and I did not know Cullen has something to say. That's almost end of chapter 2.

If you look at my 40 mins video I have it all. Isabella, Varric, Bodham, Merril and Leandra comment on it. Though Leandra's comment is the same for all LI: I've seen how ___ looks at you.. then she makes a comment about wanting to start going out again. see here

Fenris and Sebastian will also comment, if you get them high enough on the romance path. With Fenris I think you have to actually sleep with him, then he makes 2 comments to Anders about Anders stealing Hawke. With Sebastian you just have to flirt mercilessly with him. 

[Amirit]

Fox In The Box wrote...
That's not connected with Fenris, but with letting Orana work for you as your servant.

Wow! Now I am the one who does not listen and understand. I would never think so. Since Orana comes before the night with Fenris and mother is really conserned... I would never think she is so terrified by the idea of ex-slave girl in the house. I though, elf-servants is normal thing in Kirkwall. So, my obvious conclusion was - mother is shoked to find out about relations of her daughter with an elf (!) and a slave (!).

Btw, Gamplen comments on Anders (as well as on Fenris). About Anders he says "You have that apostate boy (lol) leaving with you. You are your mothers daugter."

[NRieh]

Ya, that makes sense. Though I like to think Anders and Justice should have had more common sense!

Where could they get it from, I wonder? 8P One is a being from the other world who does not even know why people love cats and have pets and another - young (lost in timeline, must be about ~22, no?) mage-on-the-run, who's primary concern is to get rid of templars on his tail and stay away from Circle. Do you remember how his recruiting into wardens looked like? It was like "whaa? I can tell those bastards to FO? Make me a Warden naow!"
I bet it was something similiar, when time to merge came. May be - sprinkled with some good intentions to help others...and fueled with inner hatered and ugre for vengence to templar order...

I though, elf-servants is normal thing in Kirkwall.

It probably is, but I doubt that it's that common to have those servants come to house out of nowhere and say that she was a slave to some crazy mage, and her new mistress Hawke told her to come and start working. Note - she thinks she's still a slave untill you talk to her and explain that you're going to pay her.

Btw, Gamplen comments on Anders

Gamlen, yes. At the beginnig of chapter 3, afair.

Though Leandra's comment is the same for all LI: I've seen how ___ looks at you..

I don't remember this one, probably because I've heared her "going out again" lines before romance was locked? I was sure that she has something to add after the night.

So far I've heared Varriс(friendly concern), Isabella(banter with poet), Aveline - as a part of her "long road" and after night. Also this time Fenris' line about "What has magic touched that it did not spoil" suddenly had some extra meaning to me.

[Renmiri1]

Ya the Leandra line only triggers if you haven't triggered it before you romanced someone.

I still haven't recorded Aveline's reference to "He is all but cursed, how do you live with that fear". Is a sweet line and both Anders and Hawke just look in pain unable to refute it. I have Gamlem's words on the 40 min video I think. And Merril's is very sweet: "(To Anders) Are you happy ?" which he responds "Yes, I suppose I am" 

Fenris line is hilarious if you romance Isabella too and have her on party.

(If Hawke spent the night with Fenris)
Anders: I can't imagine what Hawke sees in you.
Fenris: It is done. Leave it be.
Anders: Well, good. I always knew she/he had some sense.
Fenris: Do not make light of this. Leaving was the hardest thing I've ever done.
(If Isabela is in the party)
Isabela: Oh, will you two get over yourselves? You're like two dogs around a **** in heat.
Fenris: We were talking about Hawke. Not you.
(If Isabela is in the party and you slept with her as well)
Isabela: Oh, will you two get over yourselves? I did her/him too.
───────
(If Hawke spent the night with Fenris, but moved on to Anders)
Anders: You were an idiot to leave Hawke.
Fenris: And you were fast enough to replace me.
Anders: I love him/her. You can't even imagine what that is.
Fenris: Do not bare your heart to me, mage, unless you would have me rip it out.
───────
(If Hawke spent the night with Fenris, but moved on to Anders)
Fenris: You... are living with Hawke now?
Anders: What's it to you?
Fenris: Be good to him/her. Break his/her heart, and I will kill you.

PS: I get the impression Leandra is a bit racist against elves..

Modifié par Renmiri1, 07 septembre 2012 - 03:59 .

[berelinde]

I have Aveline's "He's all but cursed" sequence recorded, but with no internet at home, I can't upload it. The internet repair guy is coming out on Sunday. Maybe it will get fixed then.