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[Cantina]

Gyrefalcon wrote...


As for Ethina, she was mostly nice, but if you talk to...Cullen or one of the other templars and talk to them about her stance on mages, one of the NPC's says something to the effect that 'it's cruel how she eggs them on into thinking they have a chance at freedom'.  It rather skewed my view of her and made me look at her twice.  If you take her words as an attempt to get the templars and mages riled up, it adds a level of creepyness to the storyline.  But overall, I think she was more ineffective.  She tried to be kind to everyone and NOT take sides, but in trying not to favor anyone, she allowed atrocities to continue that she should have spoken out against.  And the fact that she didn't reign in the Sister who was speaking out against the Qunari in her sermons implies she approved of them for she did not ask the Sister to stop or to change her tone.  So Bioware did a nice job of making Ethina seem gentle but also had the possibility of playing others as her cats paws. 

I do think Dragon Age:  Asunder helps clarify a bit of what Ethina's limits were for dealing with the Templars given how things go for the head of the entire Chantry.  But I still can't shake how Ethina is viewed by other NPC's in the game.  Clever, clever bits.

Considering what Elthina did before Knight Commander Meradith was in charge, I don't look upon that woman as kind. I view her as a malipative **** who got what she deserved.  During the Justice Quest, she tries to pull one over, but it just shows her true colors.

[berelinde]

What did Elthina do before Meredith was in charge? I'm not disagreeing with your statement that Elthina really needed to be removed from authority by whatever means necessary. Most of the problems in Kirkwall were the direct result of her inaction. I just don't remember reading anything about her time in Kirkwall before Meredith.

Sometimes, I wonder what would have happened if Elthina had been executed or deposed in year one. In the end, the mages would probably still have rebelled, but it might have taken longer or happened elsewhere.

[Yara C.]

motomotogirl wrote...

Well, "Anders" is a Scandinavian name... you see Swedish, Danish, etc. guys with that name. So I'm guessing it's Scandinavian or Germanic-like.

Nilfalasiel wrote...

And yet he uses a name that idenfies him as Anders (the nationality). Would that mean that it was a nickname given the templars/other mages at the Circle? Because if it was self-chosen, it would be contradictory.

Dropping in...I think this has not been mentioned before.

It might be that Andersfels was named after Anders. Meant in the chronological sequence of creation.

"Anders" is indeed a Scandinavian name. In German it is used as an adjective.
Syonyms for "anders" are: different, changed, unknown. It derives from the Middle High German "ander", used originally as genitive form. "Die andere" / "der andere" means "the other (of two)".

To my opinion the name Anders has been chosen intentionally with references to these roots.
When I heared that Anders would merge with Justice in DA2, I felt immediately remembered to "das andere Ich" (= Alter ego).

For me it makes a lot of sense that there has been left space for interpretation in game how he got to his nickname. The reference to a nationality seems to be more a supportive construct.

Anders is different from the villagers and the mages as well. At least for me, this additional layer of meaning gets  in my ears much more weight than the more obvious reference to the people of Andersfels.

"That mage - he is different."
"I am ...different".
"I am different!"

Modifié par Yara Cousland, 17 octobre 2012 - 02:15 .

[berelinde]

Wow, Yara, what an interesting perspective! Thanks for delurking to share that!

[CuriousArtemis]

Agree!!! Thanks a lot for your insight!! I hadn't thought of the writers coming up with Anders first and the Anderfels second. But of course this makes sense...

I do however believe it is canon that "Anders" is a nickname that is derived from Anders' home country, the Anderfels.

[Cantina]

berelinde wrote...

What did Elthina do before Meredith was in charge? I'm not disagreeing with your statement that Elthina really needed to be removed from authority by whatever means necessary. Most of the problems in Kirkwall were the direct result of her inaction. I just don't remember reading anything about her time in Kirkwall before Meredith.

Sometimes, I wonder what would have happened if Elthina had been executed or deposed in year one. In the end, the mages would probably still have rebelled, but it might have taken longer or happened elsewhere.

The previous Viscount, Perrin Threnhold used the “Twins” at Kirkwalls harbor to charge Orlesian ships large fees to dock. This was probably do to all the trouble Thedas was having with Orlais, mostly Fereldan.

The Divine Deatrix stuck her nose into politics and tried to use the Templar order to put pressure on the Viscount. His retaliation was to try and remove the Templars from Kirkwall. His army stormed the Gallows, the former Knight Commander Guylian was arrested and executed.

In return, the Templars stormed the Viscount’s Keep, led by Meradith. Perrin was arrested, tried and imprison BY Grand Elthina. Perrin died a few years later from poisoning.

This is why you need to support the Templars in order to be a Viscount. Once the person does take the Viscount seat, you have no choice but to nod your head and do as the Templars say.


Elthina claims she has no power over the Templars and Circle, this is true, but the reason it is true is because she supports the Templars. It is obvious of how much she supports them considering the events of Perrin. She may not agree with Meradith’s insane actions by Act 3 but she refuses to do anything about it because to her magic is a far larger problem. On top that she is highly protective over the Templar Order and is not afraid, to get her hands dirty if the Order is being threatened.

IF the events of Perrin did not occur, I bet the problems in Kirkwall would have not reached the point they did. Grand Cleric Elthina could have sent word to Orlais to have Meradith removed and be replaced by someone else. However, doing so goes against the Order and questions Elthina’s position as Grand Cleric.

Yes, Elthina would talk to Meradith, but who knows what those two talked about; for all we know they could have discussed the latest fashions. And yes, Elthina turned down Meradith’s proposal for the Right of Annulment, but Elthina only did so because there was no grounds to allow it to happen.

Elthina was useless, Meradith was allowed to do whatever she wanted (to a point) and the Mages only option was to Rebel. As Anders said, “I rather die fighting.” My guess a lot of those Mages who did not want to rebel were too damn scared to stand up for themselves and their rights.

[Sable Rhapsody]

*slinks back into Anders thread*

Replaying DA2 for the first time in over a year made me nostalgic for the Anders thread   Are all the crazy memes like Meredanders still kicking around?

Cantina wrote...
Elthina was useless, Meradith was allowed to do whatever she wanted (to a point) and the Mages only option was to Rebel. As Anders said, “I rather die fighting.” My guess a lot of those Mages who did not want to rebel were too damn scared to stand up for themselves and their rights. 

Or they were more realistic about their odds.  Without Hawke on their side to tip the balance, it's pretty clear from the endgame cutscenes that the mages are thoroughly hosed, even if all of them are backed into a corner fighting templars en masse.  Even with Hawke, they can't win.  They can only buy time for the mages to scatter.  Anders might be willing to die for a nigh-impossible cause, but most people don't think like that.  Orsino clearly hated Meredith and wanted to take her down, but he wasn't going to strike the first blow either.  He likely figured he couldn't win.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:35 .

[smallwhippet]

On a completely different topic (and I apologise if this was already covered a thousand pages ago): on the occasions when we meet Wardens during the game, they seem remarkably unperturbed to encounter Anders, considering he is supposed to have left their ranks under such violent circumstances, according to Jennifer Hepler's story...
Yet Stroud, in the Deep Roads, gives the impression that he actually owes Anders a favour, which is fulfilled by taking on Bethany/Carver, and Nathaniel seems slightly surprised, but otherwise completely unbothered. I rather like the exchange between them (roughly, as memory serves):
N: it seems there's no escaping you.
A: ...I'm special like that!
(I wonder whether this a primly mocking aside for the benefit of those for whom he died in Awakenings?)

But do you think this is just inconsistency? It rather belies the idea that he's on the run from them.

Hawke: 'So tell me, how is it that you manage to keep eluding the Wardens?'
Anders: 'Easy! I just escape through the nearest plot-hole'.

[berelinde]

Stroud may have his own secrets. A lot of people enter the Wardens because it grants immunity for past transgressions. But people don't change. If Stroud did whatever it was again *after* he was in the Wardens, he'd be answerable. If Anders knew, that would explain why Stroud gives in with so little resistance and why neither man is willing to talk about it.

Edit: As for Nathaniel, he may not have believed Anders capable of his pre-DA2 actions. Or he may not have known at all. I get the feeling that not a lot of people did, probably not even Stroud. The slaughter may have been attributed to other causes (wolves during a lightning storm, other apostates, whatever). If there were no survivors, there would be no one there to say "Anders did this." I got the impression that he was running for freedom, not away from pursuit. If the Wardens were determined to find him, they would have, outpost or no. So seeing Stroud, Nathaniel, and Alistair greet Anders with little fanfare may not be as strange as all that.

Modifié par berelinde, 18 octobre 2012 - 12:03 .

[smallwhippet]

That all makes sense. Thanks.
Nice chapter btw: sensitively handled...

[Cantina]

Well I tend to look at it as the Wardens kicked Anders out but are not going to come out and say so.

Anders makes a comment about this in the game during party banter.

I think he is a little nervous that he maybe "forgiven" and dragged back. Of course then again too DA2 had more holes then a back country road.

[Gyrefalcon]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Gyrefalcon wrote...

Hmm, interesting, Nilfalasiel.  I had rather thought he was taken to the one in the Anderfels and that they were full or didn't want to deal with him so sent him on to the Ferelden Circle fairly quickly.

I guess his family moved to Ferelden before they discovered his magical talents. Or, as you say, the Anderfels Circle wasn't an option for whatever reason (overcrowding, too far, the templars who took him were headed towards Ferelden, etc.)

Cantina, thanks for the further tidbit that Anders family had moved to Ferelden. It makes Anders' line about 'hating that bastard' towards First Enchanter Irving make more sense. Sounds like Irving was probably much harsher when he was younger or that he took a dislike towards the rebellious teenager, Anders. I really have not heard Anders hate anyone else that wasn't a templar, especially when speaking of mages.  And I didn't have Anders bad experience when playing a mage in the Ferelden Circle, I rather liked Irving.

I don't seem to remember that line. Is this from Awakening? It sounds strange, as you say, since Irving appears rather sympathetic in DAO and since he seems to have been the reason why Anders was never executed (as per his DA2 Codex entry), despite having escaped so many times. Then again, I guess being put in solitary confinement for a year isn't exactly a motive for endearment, even if the alternative is death.

That's true!  Irving is supposed to intervene with the Templars for the mages, isn't he?  I suppose after Anders escaped so many times he just stood back when they handed down the year's worth of solitary, or perhaps he even supported it.  That would explain a lot about why Anders seems to hate him so.  I never could figure it out, but Anders certainly tried to buck the system at every turn.  Irving wasn't necessarily going to be nice to us when it turned out we had helped a blood mage.  Hmm, need to look at that section with new eyes!

[berelinde]

It's important to remember that Anders was a Harrowed mage at that point. When he escaped, even temporarily, he became an apostate. Even in DA:O, apostates were assumed to be maleficarum. Had both Irving *and* Greagoir not been sympathetic, Anders might have been executed if he was lucky. if he was unlucky, he would have been sent to Aeonar. Aeonar would have been a death sentence, but it would have taken longer. The purpose of the place is not rehabilitation. It's experimentation with the intent of finding out all they can about the process of becoming an abomination. With that in mind, the templars torture the mages relentlessly until they become abominations or their minds snap. After Anders's last escape, this is what Greagoir wanted to do with him, but Irving was able to persuade him to lock him up in solitary confinement for a year instead.

Irving was a good friend to Anders, whether Anders knows it or not. I'm sure Irving wouldn't blame Anders for thinking ill of him. After all, he knows nothing of the struggles Irving went through to keep him out of Aeonar.

Assuming that Anders and Irving are both still alive at the start of DA3, it would be interesting to see them meet.

[CuriousArtemis]

berelinde wrote...

It's important to remember that Anders was a Harrowed mage at that point. When he escaped, even temporarily, he became an apostate. Even in DA:O, apostates were assumed to be maleficarum. Had both Irving *and* Greagoir not been sympathetic, Anders might have been executed if he was lucky. if he was unlucky, he would have been sent to Aeonar. Aeonar would have been a death sentence, but it would have taken longer. The purpose of the place is not rehabilitation. It's experimentation with the intent of finding out all they can about the process of becoming an abomination. With that in mind, the templars torture the mages relentlessly until they become abominations or their minds snap. After Anders's last escape, this is what Greagoir wanted to do with him, but Irving was able to persuade him to lock him up in solitary confinement for a year instead.

This ... all just makes me so sad for Anders. It really helps you see his side of the argument, so to speak. (Not that I wasn't already on his side.)

[Cantina]

motomotogirl wrote...

berelinde wrote...

It's important to remember that Anders was a Harrowed mage at that point. When he escaped, even temporarily, he became an apostate. Even in DA:O, apostates were assumed to be maleficarum. Had both Irving *and* Greagoir not been sympathetic, Anders might have been executed if he was lucky. if he was unlucky, he would have been sent to Aeonar. Aeonar would have been a death sentence, but it would have taken longer. The purpose of the place is not rehabilitation. It's experimentation with the intent of finding out all they can about the process of becoming an abomination. With that in mind, the templars torture the mages relentlessly until they become abominations or their minds snap. After Anders's last escape, this is what Greagoir wanted to do with him, but Irving was able to persuade him to lock him up in solitary confinement for a year instead.

This ... all just makes me so sad for Anders. It really helps you see his side of the argument, so to speak. (Not that I wasn't already on his side.)

And lets add to the pile that Anders was ripped away from his home by his father's fear. Thus no doubt makes it hard for him to trust people and to accept that trust.

Everyone he ever has come to trust has either abandon him or come to hate him.  From my point of view when someone (Hawke) does accept him for who he is, I don't think he knows how to deal with it except to lash out with anger and/or (try) to push that person away. He is so use to being hated why just give them a reason to hate him.

When it comes to Justice (in my opinon) it seems he found "somone" who understood what he was going through and did not want to lose a friend. So he merged with Justice not only to acheive mage freedom but also so he would no longer be lonely.

However when Hawke comes into Anders life it is an unexpected turn of events that there IS someone who is willing to stand with him no matter what. Well, at least my Hawke is willing to do so.

Modifié par Cantina, 18 octobre 2012 - 10:12 .

[Nilfalasiel]

berelinde wrote...

It's important to remember that Anders was a Harrowed mage at that point. When he escaped, even temporarily, he became an apostate. Even in DA:O, apostates were assumed to be maleficarum. Had both Irving *and* Greagoir not been sympathetic, Anders might have been executed if he was lucky. if he was unlucky, he would have been sent to Aeonar. Aeonar would have been a death sentence, but it would have taken longer. The purpose of the place is not rehabilitation. It's experimentation with the intent of finding out all they can about the process of becoming an abomination. With that in mind, the templars torture the mages relentlessly until they become abominations or their minds snap. After Anders's last escape, this is what Greagoir wanted to do with him, but Irving was able to persuade him to lock him up in solitary confinement for a year instead.

Irving was a good friend to Anders, whether Anders knows it or not. I'm sure Irving wouldn't blame Anders for thinking ill of him. After all, he knows nothing of the struggles Irving went through to keep him out of Aeonar.

Assuming that Anders and Irving are both still alive at the start of DA3, it would be interesting to see them meet.

Yeah, I'm not sure whether Anders realises that he owes Irving his life, and most likely sanity too (pre-Justice, at least). It would be interesting to see them meet, as you say, but I'm not really holding my breath. We'll be lucky if we get a non-bugged Anders cameo, methinks. That, and he probably won't be alive for many, many players.

Cantina wrote...

Everyone he ever has come to trust has either abandon him or come to hate him. From my point of view when someone (Hawke) does accept him for who he is, I don't think he knows how to deal with it except to lash out with anger and/or (try) to push that person away. He is so use to being hated why just give them a reason to hate him.

I think it's also that he didn't actually allow himself to get attached to anybody prior to Justice, considering what he tells Hawke during the romance scene. Attachments were a liability in a context like the Circle. Once that guard is down though, he falls hard. Possibly because he's always restrained himself before and now simply no longer has any extra will or strength left to keep up that restraint (most of his resources probably go towards keeping a lid on the Justice pot).

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 19 octobre 2012 - 10:14 .

[Cantina]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

Cantina wrote...

Everyone he ever has come to trust has either abandon him or come to hate him. From my point of view when someone (Hawke) does accept him for who he is, I don't think he knows how to deal with it except to lash out with anger and/or (try) to push that person away. He is so use to being hated why just give them a reason to hate him.

I think it's also that he didn't actually allow himself to get attached to anybody prior to Justice, considering what he tells Hawke during the romance scene. Attachments were a liability in a context like the Circle. Once that guard is down though, he falls hard. Possibly because he's always restrained himself before and now simply no longer has any extra will or strength left to keep up that restraint (most of his resources probably go towards keeping a lid on the Justice pot).

Very true. The Veil is very thin in Kirkwall and plus the merge with Justice has highten his emotions. My view on it is, Anders does love Hawke very deeply, however the Justice part does not, probably because he does not understand what love is.
 
My theory is he let his guard down because for the first time in his life he actually feels something genunine for someone and can no longer contain it. Sure, its a risk, a HUGE risk, but Anders has not been one to say "No" to risks.

At any rate despite the poor writting and the holes in DA2 once you piece everything together it makes for one hell of a roller coaster ride of love.

Modifié par Cantina, 19 octobre 2012 - 10:50 .

[mmachvz]

I really don't understand how Justice turned into Vengeance (sorry if this had been discussed long before). I mean in-game Anders says that it was his anger that turned the spirit into a demon, but the developers also dangled the possibility of the taint affecting the fade spirit. We can also recall Wynne being an abomination (in the Chantry understanding of the word) herself, although generally mild tempered I'm sure she must have also, say, a dark side (being human and all) that the spirit in her might have absorbed. You can say that Wynne never carry such deep-seated emotions like Anders does but I think even a small does of poison can kill you, not outright but over time. But I think (correct me if I'm wrong) Wynne never showed any sign of corruption.

I really don't what to think about this, I might have missed some points, what do you guys think?

[Cantina]

mmachvz wrote...

I really don't understand how Justice turned into Vengeance (sorry if this had been discussed long before). I mean in-game Anders says that it was his anger that turned the spirit into a demon, but the developers also dangled the possibility of the taint affecting the fade spirit. We can also recall Wynne being an abomination (in the Chantry understanding of the word) herself, although generally mild tempered I'm sure she must have also, say, a dark side (being human and all) that the spirit in her might have absorbed. You can say that Wynne never carry such deep-seated emotions like Anders does but I think even a small does of poison can kill you, not outright but over time. But I think (correct me if I'm wrong) Wynne never showed any sign of corruption.

I really don't what to think about this, I might have missed some points, what do you guys think?

Yeah well, you are not the only one. I am confused as well by this.

IF the taint warped Justice then Justice should have been warped by it already. He DID inhabit the dead body of a dead Grey Warden in Awakening; unless it is one of those prolong things. However, even that does not make sense since it seems the second Justice jumped into Anders body it turned into a Spirit of Vengeance.

Demons are just spirits perverted by their desires, if this is the case, then are the writers saying that Wynne had no desires? Sure, Wynne flipped out in Asunder, but the way I read the book the spirit seemed unaffected by this change in emotion.

It is entirely possible that Anders thinks Justice has been twisted into a demon, when that simply is not the case at all.

I sure the hell hope some answers arise and that writers swing towards the Spirit within Anders has removed the need for his Calling and is free of Justice all together. It was an interesting path to take with Anders, but it was not the right path. It leaves far too many questions that need answers and far too many answers that lead to more questions. Anders may not be able to go back to the way he was, but this guy certainly deserves one more chance at a half ass normal life.

[mmachvz]

This is exactly why I want Anders to survive in the series (besides the simple want to see him again). Spirits are a fascinating lore that they should develop further especially since they're dealing with mage/templar issue. Since darkspawn (according to the Chantry or what Corypheus says is true) came, technically, from the Fade, having a possessed-mage warden character does cover alot of ground lore-wise and can lead the series to a more developed and serious tone. Or maybe they wouldn't really ditch the character rather they'd make him fully possessed (poor Anders), if they do I hope they'd do him justice (pun intended).

[Cantina]

mmachvz wrote...

This is exactly why I want Anders to survive in the series (besides the simple want to see him again). Spirits are a fascinating lore that they should develop further especially since they're dealing with mage/templar issue. Since darkspawn (according to the Chantry or what Corypheus says is true) came, technically, from the Fade, having a possessed-mage warden character does cover alot of ground lore-wise and can lead the series to a more developed and serious tone. Or maybe they wouldn't really ditch the character rather they'd make him fully possessed (poor Anders), if they do I hope they'd do him justice (pun intended).

I can you tell this, IF Anders is dead in the next game or fully possesed by Justice, I will NEVER play another DA game, EVER.

[Nilfalasiel]

Cantina wrote...

I can you tell this, IF Anders is dead in the next game or fully possesed by Justice, I will NEVER play another DA game, EVER.

Gotta agree on that one. That would be a case of "too much trolling is too much".

[mmachvz]

Cantina wrote...

mmachvz wrote...

This is exactly why I want Anders to survive in the series (besides the simple want to see him again). Spirits are a fascinating lore that they should develop further especially since they're dealing with mage/templar issue. Since darkspawn (according to the Chantry or what Corypheus says is true) came, technically, from the Fade, having a possessed-mage warden character does cover alot of ground lore-wise and can lead the series to a more developed and serious tone. Or maybe they wouldn't really ditch the character rather they'd make him fully possessed (poor Anders), if they do I hope they'd do him justice (pun intended).

I can you tell this, IF Anders is dead in the next game or fully possesed by Justice, I will NEVER play another DA game, EVER.

Wow, quite an ultimatum.

Personally I'm really worried where they are taking him as character. He's too important player just to be taken away. I'm afraid they might do the sane trick they did on him in his Justice quest (or DA2 as a whole), that your choices would not matter in the long run. Damn, this is heart wrenching.  

[Cantina]

mmachvz wrote...

Cantina wrote...

mmachvz wrote...

This is exactly why I want Anders to survive in the series (besides the simple want to see him again). Spirits are a fascinating lore that they should develop further especially since they're dealing with mage/templar issue. Since darkspawn (according to the Chantry or what Corypheus says is true) came, technically, from the Fade, having a possessed-mage warden character does cover alot of ground lore-wise and can lead the series to a more developed and serious tone. Or maybe they wouldn't really ditch the character rather they'd make him fully possessed (poor Anders), if they do I hope they'd do him justice (pun intended).

I can you tell this, IF Anders is dead in the next game or fully possesed by Justice, I will NEVER play another DA game, EVER.

Wow, quite an ultimatum.

Personally I'm really worried where they are taking him as character. He's too important player just to be taken away. I'm afraid they might do the sane trick they did on him in his Justice quest (or DA2 as a whole), that your choices would not matter in the long run. Damn, this is heart wrenching.  

It may seem like an ultimatum, but it is not, simply how I feel. Out of the numerous characters in games that I have played, Anders is by far the best. I just would hate to see his character stripped down to nothing. Not only is Anders important he also has a lot of fans.

Think of it in terms of this way, if fans of.... I dunno...lets say Twilight found out Edward ends up dying and Isabella becomes human again, I cannot even being to fathom the amount of torches and pitchforks that would come up.

Its one thing to change a character, but to completely erase a character, well I for one cannot just simply shrug my shoulders and pretend its OK.  People find some solice in fictional characters, ones that tend to relate to what their life is and has become. I for one see some of my struggles in Anders, and to have the chance of that being taken way, well it would just simply be unacceptable.

Modifié par Cantina, 20 octobre 2012 - 02:13 .

[Renmiri1]

Oh wow, I've been on the new WoW for the last couple of weeks and I miss our beloved mage rebel so much! I need an overdose of Anders soon or I'll go insane