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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#56051
berelinde

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CrimsonZephyr wrote...

"Sure, there are probably some mages with more ambition than sense. You will run across the occasional Uldred who wants power for his own benefit. But you will also encounter the occasional Meredith, who also wants power for her own benefit. In both cases, they professed to be working toward a cause (mage freedom or public safety), but ultimately, the one thing both of them wanted above all else was to be top banana. The "cause" was just an excuse. In both cases, the way to restore order was the same: kill them with fire. Because that much ambition is always destructive, whether the owner's power is magical or martial, secular or religious."

That said, if a mage can become a ruler, and a good ruler, then being a mage in itself should not be an obstacle. A mage leader of a secular government is not exactly the same thing as a magister. Mages set themselves too small a goal if they simply want to be farmers and healers. At the very least, highborn mages should not be disinherited unless they commit magical-related crimes.


As a relatively liberal Westerner, it's easy for me to say that mages should not be barred from inheritance the way they are now. Even as a Thedosian, the concept that people should not be punished for a accident of birth is not completely unknown, especially in cultures like Ferelden where heredity is less important to the people than ability. Royalty - kings and teyrns - is hereditary, but banns are elected by their constituents. That's where the real power resides, in the Landsmeet. And that's why a single mage-blooded bann would have so little impact on the rest of the government. Despite what you see, mages represent a small percentage of the population. They are an exceptionally well-educated portion of the population, thanks to an enforced lifetime of scholarship, but leadership ability is not found more often in academia than elsewhere.

Most mages outside Tevinter probably imagine themselves more readily as farmers, soldiers, and healers because that is what their family background was. Connors are rare.

Anyway, it seems as if we pretty much agree. My point was more that people should be imprisoned because they commit actual crimes, not because there's a chance they might one day commit one. Going by that logic, you'd have to lock everyone up because the vast majority of criminal activity in Thedas is committed by non-mages. No one is saying that crimes of greater magnitude should not carry greater penalties, but preemptively treating people like criminals is a pretty good way of ensuring that they become criminals. Despite socialogical differences like more open acceptance of sexual orientation and a more egalitarian attitude about gender roles, human nature does not seem to be different in Ferelden than it is on earth. The carrot is generally more effective than the stick.

#56052
Deviant Ingredient

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Deviant Ingredient wrote...
I really hope we can find a balance between the mages and templars in DA3.


That's my hope too.  Or barring that, I do get frustrated enough with both mages and templars during Act 3 of DA2 where I wonder if we can't just pack them all off to Aeonar so they can kill each other off :P


I know right? Grace's plot armor still gives me a bit of rage, I think that particular quest is what tipped more people to hate mages. That and Orsino's random break down. :?  I don't hate the templars, I actually have a strange attraction to Greagoir, and I can see their point of view. I just really wish they held Keran's point of view when he said "Templars are supposed to protect Mages, not massacre them."

Modifié par Deviant Ingredient, 02 novembre 2012 - 12:25 .


#56053
Sable Rhapsody

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Deviant Ingredient wrote...
I know right? Grace's plot armor still gives me a bit of rage, I think that particular quest is what tipped more people to hate mages. That and Orsino's random break down. :?  I don't hate the templars, I actually have a strange attraction to Greagoir, and I can see their point of view. I just really wish they held Keran's point of view when he said "Templars are supposed to protect Mages, not massacre them."


The mages don't come off well in any of Act 3.  Hawke at one point says something like, "I'd like to go one week without meeting an insane mage.  Just one week."  And I was definitely feeling that way.  When there's blood magic and abominations coming out of the woodwork every other fight EVEN if Hawke has been pro-mage, it's harder to feel sympathetic.

I liked Greagior.  I felt like even if he was a cranky old man, he was pretty reasonable, even deferring to Irving's judgment when it came to a repeat offender like Anders.  And it's pretty clear in Broken Circle that he does not want to annul the Circle, and he'll take just about any out he can, even if it means possibly letting blood mages survive.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 novembre 2012 - 05:30 .


#56054
Deviant Ingredient

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Deviant Ingredient wrote...
I know right? Grace's plot armor still gives me a bit of rage, I think that particular quest is what tipped more people to hate mages. That and Orsino's random break down. :?  I don't hate the templars, I actually have a strange attraction to Greagoir, and I can see their point of view. I just really wish they held Keran's point of view when he said "Templars are supposed to protect Mages, not massacre them."


The mages don't come off well in any of Act 3.  Hawke at one point says something like, "I'd like to go one week without meeting an insane mage.  Just one week."  And I was definitely feeling that way.  When there's blood magic and abominations coming out of the woodwork every other fight EVEN if Hawke has been pro-mage, it's harder to feel sympathetic.

I liked Greagior.  I felt like even if he was a cranky old man, he was pretty reasonable, even deferring to Irving's judgment when it came to a repeat offender like Anders.  And it's pretty clear in Broken Circle that he does not want to annul the Circle, and he'll take just about any out he can, even if it means possibly letting blood mages survive.


Act 3 was just a mess. I love DA2 but the last bit was very unpolished. As for Greagoir, I just love grumpy old men and since I play primarly mages my main Warden and he end up having a grudging respect for each other by the end. In general for cranky old guys, I also adored Irving, Loghain and Gamlen. I can picture Nathaniel growing into a grumpy old man too.

#56055
berelinde

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Believe it or not, I liked most of the templars i DA:O. Most of them seemed sane - reasonable, even - and some of them even had endearing qualities (Greagoir, Otto, Cullen, and those two outside the Denerim chantry). Maybe it was because the focus was different in DA:O. We were being introduced to the world and being slammed with ultra-aggressive templars would have been too much. Or maybe it was because they needed to explain how a mage PC was allowed to roam free without being watched for every moment. Or maybe DA2 was rushed to the point where subtlety was lost.

#56056
Sable Rhapsody

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Deviant Ingredient wrote...
Act 3 was just a mess. I love DA2 but the last bit was very unpolished. 


Tell me about it.  Doing the "Best Served Cold" quest as a pro-mage Hawke had me going, "WTF just happened?" at the end there.  I spent the whole game freeing mages and thumbing my nose at Meredith, and now I'm suddenly the bad guy to all these conspirators?  

I think Orsino's breakdown would've made more sense if the gameplay section had been different.  If you actually saw templars breaking through your ranks to kill more mages, for example.  Or if there were multiple entrances to the room you were in and you could only defend one.

berelinde wrote...
Or maybe DA2 was rushed to the point where subtlety was lost.


I got more the impression that they'd taken the "George R.R. Martin" approach--that is to say, rather than both sides being treated sympathetically, you see both at their worst.  Sure, it makes for a darker and more brutal story, but it doesn't do much for getting me to like the mages OR the templars. 

There's also the implication in the codex entries that the violence in Kirkwall is something systemic, from the centuries of Tevinters weakening the Veil, and possibly from Corypheus.  One way or another, worst place in Thedas to live :pinched:

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 02 novembre 2012 - 08:43 .


#56057
Deviant Ingredient

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Deviant Ingredient wrote...
Act 3 was just a mess. I love DA2 but the last bit was very unpolished. 


Tell me about it.  Doing the "Best Served Cold" quest as a pro-mage Hawke had me going, "WTF just happened?" at the end there.  I spent the whole game freeing mages and thumbing my nose at Meredith, and now I'm suddenly the bad guy to all these conspirators?  

I think Orsino's breakdown would've made more sense if the gameplay section had been different.  If you actually saw templars breaking through your ranks to kill more mages, for example.  Or if there were multiple entrances to the room you were in and you could only defend one.

berelinde wrote...
Or maybe DA2 was rushed to the point where subtlety was lost.


I got more the impression that they'd taken the "George R.R. Martin" approach--that is to say, rather than both sides being treated sympathetically, you see both at their worst.  Sure, it makes for a darker and more brutal story, but it doesn't do much for getting me to like the mages OR the templars. 

There's also the implication in the codex entries that the violence in Kirkwall is something systemic, from the centuries of Tevinters weakening the Veil, and possibly from Corypheus.  One way or another, worst place in Thedas to live :pinched:


I know right? They had one quest where pro-mages wanted your help if you spoke out against Meredith but they weren't even mages, just nobles. And Thrask? WTF? He should have known that Hawke wasn't siding with Meredith if she publically spoke out against her. I can forgive him for doing it to a Hawke who kept quiet with her views simply to keep the peace but not one who was vocal.

To be honest I was always curious on how Anders wasn't captured in Act 2. In Act 3 it was clear it was because he was friend/lover to the Champion but in 2 they just sort of let him walk around, even Cullen is aware he's a mage. The only thing I can think of is perhaps they thought he was useful in helping the refugees? They knew where he was and simply kept tabs on him as long as he remained a healer? Hawke I figured they either weren't clear on her being a mage yet or since she had helped the templars with some stuff despite how risky it would be for her so they just kept tabs on her as well. I know in Act 1 Cullen states how he's been hearing "disturbing rumors" about Hawke and how he hopes they aren't true.

As for Corypheus, do you think he'll have any role in DA3? I'd hate for him to never appear after being such a big deal since he's an ancient magister and all.

#56058
Sable Rhapsody

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Deviant Ingredient wrote...
To be honest I was always curious on how Anders wasn't captured in Act 2. In Act 3 it was clear it was because he was friend/lover to the Champion but in 2 they just sort of let him walk around, even Cullen is aware he's a mage. The only thing I can think of is perhaps they thought he was useful in helping the refugees? They knew where he was and simply kept tabs on him as long as he remained a healer? Hawke I figured they either weren't clear on her being a mage yet or since she had helped the templars with some stuff despite how risky it would be for her so they just kept tabs on her as well. I know in Act 1 Cullen states how he's been hearing "disturbing rumors" about Hawke and how he hopes they aren't true.

As for Corypheus, do you think he'll have any role in DA3? I'd hate for him to never appear after being such a big deal since he's an ancient magister and all.


I think it's mentioned in his codices that Anders relies on the goodwill of the people he helps to keep the templars away.  I mean, even in Act 1 there are those Fereldens who are willing to die defending him rather than lose him to the templars.  They probably figure between his association with Hawke and his clinic, it'll stir up too much trouble bringing him in.  As for Hawke, I think the templars know about him/her being a mage, but by Act 2 Hawke is too wealthy and influential for the templars to touch.  And Act 1 Hawke presumably remains discreet enough to avoid the templars' wrath.

Corypheus I thought was a wonderful character, a more human face to the tragedy of the Blights.  I'm also interested in his memories of the Black City, the other magisters, and the Old Gods.  Might help shed some light on the origins of the Blight, or even the cosmology of Dragon Age.

#56059
berelinde

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Deviant Ingredient wrote...

To be honest I was always curious on how Anders wasn't captured in Act 2. In Act 3 it was clear it was because he was friend/lover to the Champion but in 2 they just sort of let him walk around, even Cullen is aware he's a mage. The only thing I can think of is perhaps they thought he was useful in helping the refugees? They knew where he was and simply kept tabs on him as long as he remained a healer? Hawke I figured they either weren't clear on her being a mage yet or since she had helped the templars with some stuff despite how risky it would be for her so they just kept tabs on her as well. I know in Act 1 Cullen states how he's been hearing "disturbing rumors" about Hawke and how he hopes they aren't true.

As for Corypheus, do you think he'll have any role in DA3? I'd hate for him to never appear after being such a big deal since he's an ancient magister and all.


I got the feeling that Anders's immunity was a combination of the refugees and Varric. There's a banter in Act 2 where Anders asks Varric if he has had anything to do with the recent lack of templar activity near his clinic and Varric denies it in a very unconvincing way. And Darktown isn't a particularly safe place to be if you are wearing anything sellable, such as armor or weapons. If you were Cullen, how many templars would you send to capture a well-guarded apostate in the absolute worst part of town who isn't actually hurting anyone?

#56060
kromify

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Hello again fellow Anderstians; it has been many months!
It struck me that Anders could have perhaps been more popular if Greg Elliot had been his VA in DA2... I mean no slight to Howden, but the quality of Elliot's voice is more naturally sardonic and would have lessened the bitterness and spite which Anders displayed in Acts 2 and 3. Many things can be soften by humour.
Having said that It's likely it would have lessened him as a character - made us take his points of view less seriously. But anything that converts the masses to the worship of Anders can only be a good thing, right?

#56061
Deviant Ingredient

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kromify wrote...

Hello again fellow Anderstians; it has been many months!
It struck me that Anders could have perhaps been more popular if Greg Elliot had been his VA in DA2... I mean no slight to Howden, but the quality of Elliot's voice is more naturally sardonic and would have lessened the bitterness and spite which Anders displayed in Acts 2 and 3. Many things can be soften by humour.
Having said that It's likely it would have lessened him as a character - made us take his points of view less seriously. But anything that converts the masses to the worship of Anders can only be a good thing, right?


I personally prefer Howden as Anders simply because I think his voice was more suited to be surly and sardonic. He also sounded more emotional that Ellis. I love Ellis by the way, but him as Anders was definitely more light humor, like Alistair, than snarky/dry.

#56062
Sable Rhapsody

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kromify wrote...

Hello again fellow Anderstians; it has been many months!
It struck me that Anders could have perhaps been more popular if Greg Elliot had been his VA in DA2... I mean no slight to Howden, but the quality of Elliot's voice is more naturally sardonic and would have lessened the bitterness and spite which Anders displayed in Acts 2 and 3. Many things can be soften by humour.
Having said that It's likely it would have lessened him as a character - made us take his points of view less seriously. But anything that converts the masses to the worship of Anders can only be a good thing, right?


I'm playing through Awakening at the moment, and while I do like Greg Ellis's version of Anders, I think it's not necessarily true that he's less bitter in DA:A.  I just did his quest and talked to him about the statue of Andraste, and he's pretty messed up even before Justice.  He just hides his problems more actively in DA:A with humor, but even then, it's pretty thinly veiled.

And I like polarizing characters--Anders, Miranda, Morrigan, etc.  What makes a character awesome IMO is its ability to inspire passions, positive or negative.  

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 05 novembre 2012 - 03:31 .


#56063
kromify

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

And I like polarizing characters--Anders, Miranda, Morrigan, etc.  What makes a character awesome IMO is its ability to inspire passions, positive or negative.  


I do too... possibly one of the reasons I liked Anders. You cannot ignore him. I just wish that more people shared my love of the haracter, and I think it could have been achieved with Ellis.

#56064
Sable Rhapsody

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kromify wrote...

I do too... possibly one of the reasons I liked Anders. You cannot ignore him. I just wish that more people shared my love of the haracter, and I think it could have been achieved with Ellis.


Fair enough.  Personally, I think the point of a polarizing character is to engender both love and hate.

Sometimes at the same time.  After two runthroughs of DA2, one with rival Anders and one with friendship and romance, I get this crazy jumble of feelings every time he opens his mouth about the damn mages.  I want to slug him, hug him, stab him, kiss him, yell, scream, and comfort him all at once.

#56065
Renmiri1

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Mages on 2012 ftw

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Modifié par Renmiri1, 07 novembre 2012 - 05:08 .


#56066
Nilfalasiel

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Concerning Ellis as a VA, while he certainly tends to be associated with goofier roles, he can pull off both serious and emotional just as well. *points at Cullen* Another example of both emotional and serious would be Mathias from Honnleath. Still, it's just as well they switched VAs: having two major characters with the same VA in the same game would just have been disorienting. Especially as they're on opposite sides.

#56067
Renmiri1

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Howden made Anders II unforgettable <3

#56068
smallwhippet

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Renmiri1 wrote...

Howden made Anders II unforgettable <3


+100

#56069
berelinde

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I seem to remember saying this before, but I liked the change from one voice actor to another. I liked the snarky bitterness Greg Ellis used for Awakening Anders very much, but I thought Adam Howden did a great job in conveying the more emotional DA2 Anders. Their voices are similar enough in pitch to make it sound as if it *could* have been the same man, but the difference in timbre makes a lot of difference.

#56070
Sable Rhapsody

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berelinde wrote...

I seem to remember saying this before, but I liked the change from one voice actor to another. I liked the snarky bitterness Greg Ellis used for Awakening Anders very much, but I thought Adam Howden did a great job in conveying the more emotional DA2 Anders. Their voices are similar enough in pitch to make it sound as if it *could* have been the same man, but the difference in timbre makes a lot of difference.


This.

I especially love the anguish and panic Howden puts into Anders' voices for his combat cries if Hawke falls unconscious.  Poor silly abomination, she'll get right back up at the end of the combat! :D

Unless the regroup spell bugs out and you all die.  That...could be a problem.

#56071
Deviant Ingredient

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

berelinde wrote...

I seem to remember saying this before, but I liked the change from one voice actor to another. I liked the snarky bitterness Greg Ellis used for Awakening Anders very much, but I thought Adam Howden did a great job in conveying the more emotional DA2 Anders. Their voices are similar enough in pitch to make it sound as if it *could* have been the same man, but the difference in timbre makes a lot of difference.


This.

I especially love the anguish and panic Howden puts into Anders' voices for his combat cries if Hawke falls unconscious.  Poor silly abomination, she'll get right back up at the end of the combat! :D

Unless the regroup spell bugs out and you all die.  That...could be a problem.


Is it terrible that I used to make Hawke fall on purpose just to hear Anders anguish? Or make him run into the Arishok and/or Thadius just to hear his surprisingly loud death scream?

#56072
Sable Rhapsody

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Deviant Ingredient wrote...
Is it terrible that I used to make Hawke fall on purpose just to hear Anders anguish? Or make him run into the Arishok and/or Thadius just to hear his surprisingly loud death scream?


A little.  The Arishok's sword looks pretty ouchy :)

It's ok, though.  I started doing it too after I first heard Anders' lines during battle.

#56073
Deviant Ingredient

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Deviant Ingredient wrote...
Is it terrible that I used to make Hawke fall on purpose just to hear Anders anguish? Or make him run into the Arishok and/or Thadius just to hear his surprisingly loud death scream?


A little.  The Arishok's sword looks pretty ouchy :)

It's ok, though.  I started doing it too after I first heard Anders' lines during battle.


Good thing he loves Hawke so much. I wonder what he thinks of a Blood Mage Hawke.

#56074
Sable Rhapsody

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Deviant Ingredient wrote...
Good thing he loves Hawke so much. I wonder what he thinks of a Blood Mage Hawke.


I romanced Anders on the friendship path with a blood mage Hawke.  I had to headcanon a justification considering Anders' in-game distaste for blood magic, even though no one mentions it when Hawke does it.  The game gives conflicting information on whether you need a demon to learn blood magic.

The way I imagined it, Natale Hawke spent a lot of time after Malcolm's death going through his spellbooks and other things from his past, and stumbled upon some notes on blood magic from his time under the Wardens' thumb in Legacy.  She hid it from her family and put it aside until the Blight--when that hit, she was terrified of losing her family, and started using it to soup up her spells.  

Natale and Anders didn't get off to a good start--she thought he was nuts for fighting the templars, and dangerous enough to bring their wrath down on her family.  The specialization description calls blood magic an art of the physical, the only discipline that resides purely in Thedas and does not require the powers of the Fade.  I'm not sure if that's true, but that's how she saw it and used it.  If Anders can love a Hawke who supports the templars, than I think he can love a blood mage too, especially one who is actually careful about her powers.

Personally, I think the blood magic did drive her a little batty.  Not because of demons or magical corruption, but because of the very principle of blood magic--sacrifice in exchange for power.   She started applying that principle to other aspects of her life, like fighting the templars in Act 3. I ended up with a ruthless and extremely powerful maleficar with views just as extreme as Anders', practically a Villain Protagonist.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 10 novembre 2012 - 02:28 .


#56075
CuriousArtemis

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OMG YOU GUYS. In my current playthrough, just to shake things up, I'm roleplaying that Hawke is in love with Fenris but since Fenris was with him during the Deep Roads, he associates him with Bethany's death, blah blah blah. So while avoiding Fenris, he goes to Anders for comfort. I've never broken up with Anders before, so I wondered how it would be... so after they make love, feeling like an ass, I hit the "break-up" button, thinking Hawke would at least be gentle, admit he isn't in love, etc. etc. No. The **** says, to Anders' FACE, "Sorry, you just weren't that good." *smirk* OMGGGG It was so awful I couldn't stop laughing LOL Like watching a train wreck. I was choking horrific snorts of laughter. Like, really? I guess that's what I get for playing a sarcastic Hawke LOL

Anyway, just had to share LOL