57019 réponses à ce sujet

[berelinde]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

Headcanon: that conversation still occurs, but offstage, as pillow talk. Over a sandwich.

This.  Though not with rivalry.  That same non-romanced conversation with Rival!Hawke is still interesting, but considerably less cheerful.  It's the point at which Anders first starts to really doubt himself.

You know, I did rival Anders one time while romancing Isabela, but I don't remember the conversation. I don't remember much of the game at all, as a matter of fact. I vaguely remember that Hawke had red hair in that playthrough, and that he was especially good-looking, but that's about it. I think I'm blocking the memory. Not a fan of siding with the templars.

[Sable Rhapsody]

berelinde wrote...
You know, I did rival Anders one time while romancing Isabela, but I don't remember the conversation. I don't remember much of the game at all, as a matter of fact. I vaguely remember that Hawke had red hair in that playthrough, and that he was especially good-looking, but that's about it. I think I'm blocking the memory. Not a fan of siding with the templars.

Here's the funny thing: I rivaled Anders without being on the templar side.  I was about 60% pro-mage, 40% pro-templar, and I still managed to get Anders to 100% rivalry fairly early in Act 2.  That Hawke ultimately sided with the mages.

That conversation basically involves him talking to rival!Hawke about his manifesto.  I picked the more diplomatic options (not opposed to mage freedom, just to the way Anders is going about it).  Anders says something like, "I appreciate your concern, and I know what I'm doing is dangerous, but I have to do this."  It was actually really sad; it's less of a cause in rivalry and more of a compulsion.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 12 décembre 2012 - 06:53 .

[berelinde]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Here's the funny thing: I rivaled Anders without being on the templar side.  I was about 60% pro-mage, 40% pro-templar, and I still managed to get Anders to 100% rivalry fairly early in Act 2.  That Hawke ultimately sided with the mages.

That conversation basically involves him talking to rival!Hawke about his manifesto.  I picked the more diplomatic options (not opposed to mage freedom, just to the way Anders is going about it).  Anders says something like, "I appreciate your concern, and I know what I'm doing is dangerous, but I have to do this."  It was actually really sad; it's less of a cause in rivalry and more of a compulsion.

That must have been incredibly challenging, rivaling him without being pro-templar. Others have remarked on this already, but it's really a pity that he treats any rival as being pro-templar, even if what you're telling him is to fight Justice. I understand that he conflates any criticism as condemnation and a personal attack. He's literally incapable of being objective about his choices and his life. It's like asking an autistic person to be empathetic: the desire is there, but the means is not.

That's part of what makes him so wonderful as a character. He seems so real. OK, in real life, people have emotional and psychological disconnects because of mental illness or physical limitations rather than possession by Fade spirits, but the result is similar. And yes, there may be things we might wish were handled differently, but life is like that, too.

Say what you will about DA2, they did an awesome job with the characters. They may be a little one-dimensional at times, but they possess very real, very believable character traits. If you've ever played the game and thought "Wow, I can so picture my friend So-And-So saying that!" you know what I mean.

[Renmiri1]

Agreed 100%!

Hawke, Anders and other characters feel real, even while in a world of dragons and magic.

[Thaedriel]

Propping some adorable Anders art (that everybody's probably already seen, but oh well):


Linky: http://nigalacrima.d...Kitty-256201715

[Cantina]

While it has been sometime since I have played Dragon Age 2, I can say that games past and games since nothing has come close to the amazing roller coaster ride of emotion that plays between Hawke and Anders.

I too was and still am disappointed that Anders did not give a kiss to Hawke before the final battle (Mage Side). Even though the rebellion has come, it could have been another opportunity for Hawke to show that while it is important you can still allow yourself to express affection. Anders is over heightened with emotion and I like to think Hawke is there to show him it is OK to express it and at times to try to control it. Trying to find that balance is not easy for Anders currently, but Hawke is his anchor to keep him from losing it all.  Hawke could have easily kissed Anders or hell give him a damn hug for support and affection.

I just wish the game was not rushed as it was, tends to make me wonder just how far more amazing this story could have been. I am rather curious and excited for Dragon Age 3.

Modifié par Cantina, 12 décembre 2012 - 10:40 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

berelinde wrote...
That must have been incredibly challenging, rivaling him without being pro-templar. Others have remarked on this already, but it's really a pity that he treats any rival as being pro-templar, even if what you're telling him is to fight Justice. 

It did involve a LOT of metagaming, which I usually don't do.  But It was a choice between metagaming Anders' approval meter or siding with the templars more often, and the former seemed less egregious than the latter.

Being snarky toward him about the mage thing netted me a lot of rivalry, as did calling him out on his hypocrisy over Justice.  I also brought him along with me on my pro-templar quests and left him behind on the pro-mage ones 

[Caeleinn]

The first time I played this game, I was a rogue, so Bethany was the sibling that survived. It only made sense to me that my Hawke would be in favor of the mages. And from the moment that she met Anders and he told her that if she needed him...well, he went everywhere with her. Chick was crazy about him from the get-go.<3

My second play through, I did a mage. Now what kind of crazy would it be to become pro-Templar as a mage? So, while I might have managed to rivalmance Fenris to a tryst, he left me. And there was wonderful Anders, thanking the Maker that I had turned to him.

If I can convince myself to do it, I'm going to try a warrior and go pro-templar/pro-chantry...because dang it, Sebastian's accent is just distracting! Add that accent to the face mod I got for him and oh...my... The only thing that would make him totally irresistable would be a kilt. But there is fanfic for that...

(just as an aside...I'm still hoping to find a beta reader for my DA2 story... )

[berelinde]

One way or another, a Hawke who isn't a complete hypocrite will probably show a slight predisposition to side with the mages. Hawke's sister, Hawke's father, and potentially Hawke, were/are apostates living free of the Circle and not frolicking with demons. For Hawke to turn around later and say "Apart from my family, all mages deserve to be locked in a tower for eternity" takes more hubris than I can manage, at any rate.

If you're determined to do it for science, it might help to play two games side by side. In the one game, play a character you find entertaining but unlovable. That will prevent you from identifying with the character but will allow you to enjoy playing the game as a kind of alternate universe thing. In the other game, play your absolute favorite character, the one you love to itty bitty pieces. Play the games at the same time, completing one quest for jerkface!Hawke and then the same quest by your favorite Hawke as a reward for getting through it with the other. Repeat until the game is over. Or at least that's what worked for me.

[Caeleinn]

Hey, good idea, berelinde. I have wanted to try out an aggressive Hawke. I think I'll make that one a male; no way I can identify with a male. LoL And for every quest completed by him, I'll do the same one with my charming and sarcastic mage.

[berelinde]

Yeah, that was how I finally got through the Fenris romance. I love Fenris as a character. I just like Anders's romance much, much better. I played an aggressive male Hawke to rival romance Fenris and a sarcastic female Hawke to romance Anders. Next time, I'm going to do an aggressive male Hawke who sides with the templars and friend romances Fenris along side a diplomatic male Hawke who romances Anders and sides with the mages.

Don't know why, but I really prefer M!Hawke's voice to F!Hawke's. Jo Wyatt does a great job, but her voice just doesn't do it for me.

And that dual playthrough will give me a chance to remind myself what unromanced rivalry Anders is like. And give thanks for sweet friendship Anders in the other playthrough.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Caeleinn wrote...

Hey, good idea, berelinde. I have wanted to try out an aggressive Hawke. I think I'll make that one a male; no way I can identify with a male. LoL And for every quest completed by him, I'll do the same one with my charming and sarcastic mage.

Aggressive!FemHawke is actually pretty badass.  Personally, I think Jo Wyatt does aggressive better than Boulton does; hers comes off more no-nonsense, and his comes off more violent.  Generally I like the two VAs about the same.

berelinde wrote...

One way or another, a Hawke who isn't a complete hypocrite will probably show a slight predisposition to side with the mages. Hawke's sister, Hawke's father, and potentially Hawke, were/are apostates living free of the Circle and not frolicking with demons. For Hawke to turn around later and say "Apart from my family, all mages deserve to be locked in a tower for eternity" takes more hubris than I can manage, at any rate.

Pretty much this.  My manHawke who rivaled Anders believed in mage rights, just not in violence toward that end.  He had the templar specialization; I headcanoned that as an emergency button learned in case anything ever got hold of his sister and father.  

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 13 décembre 2012 - 10:47 .

[Cantina]

While I would very much like to write out my Hawke’s back- story and what happened during and after Kirkwall, I just do not have the time (as of right now) to do so.

However, the very little back-story of Hawke was the foundation for me to take pause in the direction I felt was right. I generally chose to play rogues in open world fantasy games simply because I am a lootaholic. Once I complete the first run through of the game, playing a rogue felt off and did not seem to fit the story nor the direction I was seeking. I replayed the game (for months straight) analyzing every possible avenue and was able to reach a conclusion that I was seeking….mostly.

I felt as though playing a mage seems more logical and the fact that her family had to live in secret was enough to light a fire of hatred towards The Chantry and The Templars. Although there were, a few brief times were my Hawke would see some Templars (such as Thrask) not as monstrous as others. As with Meredith and The Grand Cleric, she wanted nothing more than to silence there idiotic ideas and lies.

When it came to Anders, she fell for him simply because she believed everything he believed, two people fighting for the same rights as any other non-mage. She did not agree with his merger with the Spirit of Justice but did not berate him about the choice.

My Hawke views came to quite a few conclusions. It was not fair for her to live a life of luxury while her other fellow mages could not enjoy the same freedoms. To her this made her feel dirty and called her life an illusion. Hawke used the power she had gain to free others of her kind and not condemn them to a life in prison, something of a Trojan horse. Just because she was not raised in the Tower of Magi she did however live in a different sort of prison, constantly hiding who she really was and not being who she really was.

When Hawke meets Anders, he frees her in a sense, saying, “It’s OK to fight back. It is OK to stand up for what is right. And if you believe in it so much it is worth dying for.” This push gave her the strength to fight back and not back down.

In return, Hawke keeps Anders from losing himself entirely. It is almost as if they need each other in order to keep going and to keep from going insane. My Hawke would currently follow Anders into death if it came to that point and I have a small inkling Anders would do the same in return.

Modifié par Cantina, 14 décembre 2012 - 03:27 .

[berelinde]

That seems to be a common thread our characters share, Cantina. We both ran mages who befriended and ultimately fell in love with Anders because he made them feel as if they were no longer alone. Unlike your canon Hawke, the one I think of when I say "my Hawke" supports Anders's merger. Iain isn't idealistically sophisticated enough to differentiate between Justice and any other friend and comrade. He thinks about the lengths he would go to to save his own companions, even the ones he doesn't agree with, and he cannot condemn Anders for wishing to save the life of his friend at any cost to himself. In Anders's place, he would have done the same thing.

That's actually an interesting subject. How has your canon Hawke's ideology shaped his or her relationship with Anders and his or her attitude regarding Anders's merger with Justice?

[Cantina]

berelinde wrote...
That's actually an interesting subject. How has your canon Hawke's ideology shaped his or her relationship with Anders and his or her attitude regarding Anders's merger with Justice?

For me its a little difficult to discern between how my Hawke feels about this with my own feelings. I tend to look at a character of whom I am playing and try to play as if I were that character. However with Anders/Justice merger I did not like what the writers choose to do, which leaks over into the game.

Over the course of the story in Dragon Age 2, she tends to just deal with it while hiding her feelings that the merger was not exactly the best move even though his intentions were sound. Even going so far as lying about her support of it. Furthermore my Hawke does not feel berating him about his choice is going to change much of anything and she is hoping that Anders will in time see how wrong his choice was on his own-which he does...eventually.

IF my Hawke had a chance to separate the two she would do all she could to convince Anders to do it. In blank spots of the game, during the third act, I would write in Hawke is looking for a way to do so.

[berelinde]

Now that's a strange thing. All characters that I run do have the odd personality trait in common with me, if only because we're all part of the larger human experience and if you use a big enough brush, you can tar everyone with it, but in general, I try to play characters who aren't me. I play a lot of males, a lot of characters who do things that I wouldn't do, etc. I guess I just like seeing how different personalities play out in game.

Although saying that, I must admit that I almost always play mages. I've got a pretty good hunch that if Thedas was real, and if we were all translated to our Thedosian equivalents, I'd be a mage. If only because my luck runs that way.

[Thaedriel]

Every time I play through again, my Hawke becomes more and more of an instigator-rebel herself. On my first playthrough, she was a diplomatic rogue who mostly understood Anders but argued with him sometimes ("not all templars are bad," "stop evading my questions about the 'potion'!"). She still ran away with Anders in the end, but mostly out of apathy (I really wish there was an "I don't give a damn about the Chantry or this city; I'm catching a boat now, buh-bye!" option while Anders is sitting on his box).

I've found it less depressing to play through as a mage and be equally as committed to mage freedom as Anders is. Because that way, Act III feels more like "okay, let's get **** done" than "can't you people just chill the **** out?! I'm tired of cleaning up your messes." I feel more like my revolutionary Hawke has a reason to be there.

After Leandra died the first time around, I felt like my rogue!Hawke's most logical response would have been to hightail it to Ferelden and let Anders sort out for himself whether or not he had to stay in Kirkwall to achieve his ends.

[berelinde]

Yeah, the PC response options on the box were kinda limited. You pretty much got "Join the party," "Get out of my sight," and "Die." I do understand, I really do. There are just so many feels a character could be experiencing at that moment, it would be impossible to represent them all... so they presented the outcome and left the motive up to the player.

After Leandra's death, my favorite Hawke's first thought was probably "There's a certain comfort in knowing that the worst has already happened." He probably felt free for the first time in his life, knowing that he had nothing left to lose.

[Nilfalasiel]

berelinde wrote...

the worst has already happened

Little did he know...

[berelinde]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

berelinde wrote...

the worst has already happened

Little did he know...

Nah, for him, that was pretty much it. He understood the necessity of what came later, and was glad that his family could not be punished for what he did or what he allowed to happen. Carver was in the Wardens and had his own agenda.

[Nilfalasiel]

berelinde wrote...

Nah, for him, that was pretty much it. He understood the necessity of what came later, and was glad that his family could not be punished for what he did or what he allowed to happen. Carver was in the Wardens and had his own agenda.

That's a mighty lucky point of view.

Although to be fair, the impact for Hawke of having their zombified mother dying in their arms could very well be more powerful and more horrifying than the kaboom.

[berelinde]

I figure that it took a while for the full ramifications to sink in, possibly days. That Hawke wasn't all that quick on the uptake. He dealt with the crisis first and put off thinking about it until people stopped pointing swords at his chest. Even his decision to spare Anders was a delaying tactic. He did not feel that he had the right to pass judgment without thinking everything through, and he did not have hours to make up his mind. In the meantime, Anders could bloody well begin his atonement by helping him save whoever they could.

[esper]

berelinde wrote...

That seems to be a common thread our characters share, Cantina. We both ran mages who befriended and ultimately fell in love with Anders because he made them feel as if they were no longer alone. Unlike your canon Hawke, the one I think of when I say "my Hawke" supports Anders's merger. Iain isn't idealistically sophisticated enough to differentiate between Justice and any other friend and comrade. He thinks about the lengths he would go to to save his own companions, even the ones he doesn't agree with, and he cannot condemn Anders for wishing to save the life of his friend at any cost to himself. In Anders's place, he would have done the same thing.

That's actually an interesting subject. How has your canon Hawke's ideology shaped his or her relationship with Anders and his or her attitude regarding Anders's merger with Justice?

I know I am not Catina but this is still an interesting question.

I have always personally believed that we are influenced just a little bit by the person we deal a lot with, so romancing Anders have to have had some influence.

My Hawke have no feelings on the merger itself, expect that the Anders she knows always have been merged with Justice. She can see it brings him a lot of pain she wishes she could free him from, but on the other hand, she has never known him without and Anders is so confusing about what it actually means for him to be merged. As for the action herself, she cannot conddem someone for wanting to help another person.

Her idealogy on the mages, was always pretty much pro-mage freedom, but she starts out non-violent because she also wants to protect the ordinary people, how ever seeing all Anders effort amoutning to nothing causes her extreme frustration and she ends up being millitant and anti-chantry to booth. In the end I don't think she cares who or what she has to kill to see the circle system and the chantry brought down to the point where it cannot be brought back. By blowing up the Chantry, Anders pretty much gave her a moral carte blanche on the whole freedom fight thing, since she was using him as her moral compass. I do not think that she has a long, very happy or very peacefull life left to live.

[_- Songlian -]

So I'm pretty sure I'm as late for the party as one can ever be, but I just watched the dump Anders videos on youtube - cause, you know, I never had the curiosity before - and all I can say is...

Wow.

I mean, the sketch is basically:

*LalalalalaSteamySex*
Anders:Can I move in with you?
Hawke: No.
Anders: But... why??
Hawke: Get out!

or on the other path...

*LalalalalaSteamySex*
Anders: Can I move in with you?
Hawke: Nah, you just weren't that good.

:|

Empathy, anyone? What did just happened there? Poor Anders.

[berelinde]

Hi Songlian! Glad you found your way here!

Yeah, those rejection lines are pretty harsh. But a player who sets the poor guy up like that is probably looking for some blunt put-downs. I only did that once. I wanted to have a Hawke who banged everybody in the game, so he slept with and then broke up with Fenris, Isabela Merrill, and Anders in turn. He originally dumped Anders, too, but I developed a conscience halfway through and reloaded. That was the Hawke who rival romanced Anders to the end. It was a miserable experience.