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[Silfren]

twilekaoi wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

Are you telling me Tevinter Archmages DIDN'T call Andraste and her merry band "terrorists" ? Orlesians didn't call  Marric and his band "terrorists" ? 

Not comparable since the situations you provided are entirely different from each other. Terrorism is a politically motivated, premeditated violence made against noncombatants to influence an audience. This is exactly what Anders did.

The Orlesians who occupied Ferelden were usurpers; (in a monarch setting) one who takes something not rightfully theirs by force or by illegal means. Prince Maric, whose mother is called "the Rebel Queen" by Gaidner himself, was murdered by Ferelden nobles looking to please the Orlesian king so that he wouldn't take away their land. Joined by Loghain, a farmer boy whose mother was raped and killed by Orlesian Chevaliers. They are rebels, not terrorists.

A rebel is someone who rises up against a ruler or government in armed resistance. This cannot be compared to terrorism, in that they're just taking back what's rightfully theirs: Ferelden freedom and dethroning an Orlesian usurper (who murdered, raped, killed for fun) in Ferelden land. Not once in The Stolen Throne did Maric or Loghain kill an innocent to sway an audience to their cause. That's right, Loghain.

That same argument can be said for Andraste and Maferath. The Tevinters were going all around Thedas taking people from villages by force and making them into slaves/killing them in blood magic rituals. Andraste, one of those very slaves. I should also mention that the Tevinters ruled their own citizens under the brutal hand of the magisters. In retaliation, the exalted march was conceived, against the Tevinter magisters, not the innocent populace. In fact, just the opposite: according to codex entries, Andraste was marching to free "the people of the Imperium". That, is not a terrorist.

Blowing up a few innocent priests (some who probably sympathized with the mages, oh the irony), the Grand Cleric, lying to your lover/friends and willing to sacrifice an entire circle via Annulment for his "Justice"? Oh, Anders deserves the hate. He even said so himself. What's disturbing about all this is that Anders even compares himself to Andraste. He absolutely cannot be compared to Andraste OR Maric. No, he is comparable to Sister Petrice or the Arishok(note: not all Qunari would have acted the same way). Terrorists.

His love for cats is admirable, he was caring as a healer, even I can see that. But that was almost a decade ago. This isn't the same Anders from Awakening (total 180), Act 1 and 2. With Awakening in mind, he is a renegade terrorist (companion armor upgrade); "a person who deserts and betrays an organization, or set of principles".

There IS an argument to make that Anders didn't target noncombatants.  His target was the woman who is the direct superior of Meredith.  It's a mistake to equate the Chantry with the little corner church on Main Street.  It has its own standing army and is bound up with governments intimately: that mages are to be locked up is Chantry, not secular, law.  The Chantry WAS a military target, as was the Grand Cleric and other officials within the building.  He didn't target worshippers, which would have been innocent, but Chantry personnel, who cannot be said to be innocent just for being clergy, as the institution is absolutely bound up with military and political power.

Also,  Moira was the one killed by Ferelden nobles, not Maric, but that's what you wrote.  =p

Modifié par Silfren, 06 mai 2013 - 10:52 .

[Gyrefalcon]

[quote]twilekaoi wrote...

[quote]Renmiri1 wrote...
 Not once in The Stolen Throne did Maric or Loghain kill an innocent to sway an audience to their cause. That's right, Loghain.


[/quote]

Uh, whoa.  I humbly disagree.  Loghain was the trusted advisor to the king.  In the hour the kingdom needed ALL of its fighters on the field, the "lauded strategist" QUIT THE FIELD not because it was good strategy, but because he wanted to overthrow the king.  If the army did not abandon the Grey Wardens on the field, do you really think that the town of Lothering would have been wiped out?  The threat of the Blight would not have ended, but the battle would very likely have had a completely different outcome.

He slaughtered combatants on his own side and caused schisms in the defenses of the country because of his own actions.  He was perfectly willing to chop the heads off of anyone who opposed him, regardless of whether they were right in their suspicions of his actions or not.  And because of all of this, MANY INNOCENTS suffered!  Most of the damage to Ferelden can be laid at Logain's feet.  And what was the point of it?  To convince people that the Grey Wardens were the enemy, and that he was the country's only hope.

For a master strategist, he did not believe in the severity of the threat, he did not account for how the loss of the king would affect the morale of his troops, nor did he bother to account for how his actions would split the ranks in the hour they needed unity the most.  A large number of innocent people died because of it.  So, no, Loghain is far from saintly.  He just wanted more power, saw his chance, and seized it.  His words belie his actions. 

Anders was suffering from insanity.  As much as we, here, love the character, it is clear that merging two minds in one body was taking its toll on him.  Justice could not comprehend a world that was not designed with absolutes.  And the spirit was driving Anders mercilessly.  He was gaunt in DA2, he didn't sleep well, Justice wouldn't allow him the respite of alcohol, he went through bouts of manic activity alternated with severe depression.  So you wanted to save him from himself as the player, to bring back old Anders.  There is the hope that if Justice felt it had achieved some form of its goal, it would lessen its hold on Anders.  It is a sad descent of a good character and is more moving and gripping for it.  If it didn't have the moral questions or personal struggle, no one would be writing about it either in staunch defense nor in fierce hatred.  That is good storytelling.

Modifié par Gyrefalcon, 07 mai 2013 - 05:26 .

[twilekaoi]

There IS an argument to make that Anders didn't target
noncombatants.  His target was the woman who is the direct superior of
Meredith.  It's a mistake to equate the Chantry with the little corner
church on Main Street.  It has its own standing army and is bound up
with governments intimately: that mages are to be locked up is Chantry,
not secular, law. 

Also,  Moira was the one killed by Ferelden nobles, not Maric, but that's what you wrote.  =p

oops, coulda sworn I edited that-- must've hit the cancel button instead in a fit of rush (loves me some Jamba Juice)

Nevermind the implication that Anders didn't consider the Chantry to be a combatant entity at all, but rather a political embodiment: wouldn't it be sensible to just bomb the Templar quarters with Meredith inside? Would anybody, not just Anders, really consider that a "combatant" is also a chance of compromise? Or how about "There can be no peace" after he eliminates a sole 'peaceful' foothold between Meredith and Orsino? Elthina, as useless as she seemed, was in fact the only thing stopping Meredith from invoking the Right of Annulment at all and the Divine from treating everyone in Kirkwall as an enemy (see: Nightingale quest).

No, Anders doesn't seem to be written in a way that relates to that line of reasoning, even if it's morbid enough to be so.

He didn't target
worshippers, which would have been innocent, but Chantry personnel, who
cannot be said to be innocent just for being clergy, as the institution
is absolutely bound up with military and political power.

Aside form the fact that the chantry bomb wasn't the only atrocity factored into what Anders plan-- the chantry itself is huge. We only get to see the base floor. How do you know there weren't any citizen Andrastrians elsewhere in the building? What about the Lay Sisters/Brothers; regular unfortunate people/orphans (note: doesn't have to be religious) who "turned to the Chantry for succor", a life of quiet and contemplation as stated and experienced by Leliana? What of the Affirmed; academic scholars for the Chantry who chose not to bear arms as a combatant like a Templar, but rather seek knowledge and enlightment?

Not to mention the blood of the citizens caught around that blast radius (explosion affected the city itself), and the innocent mages of the Circle. Anders is a cunning terrorist. He vocally states he knows the consequences when confronted by Hawke. He knows that getting rid of Meredith won't 'free' the mages. To maximize his political influence, he blows up the Chantry and all its denizens inside.

By getting rid of Elthina, this allows Meredith to finally invoke the Right of Annulment with no 'peaceful' means to hold her back or allow Kirkwalls citizens to demand retribution and storm the Circle themselves (as noted by Meredith), or get killed by abominations running rampent in the streets in the process. Either way, the Circle and Kirkwall innocents are both caught up in this mess, as wanted and expected by Anders.

This all brings me back to my original, err ahem, narrative comparison of Anders and Timothy McVeigh. McVeigh also bombed an establishment of political embodiment (though he considered the building to be a combatant entity because it housed military recruitment centers). He got what he wanted, there were victims from all branches of the government, which included a childrens day care.

berelinde wrote...

Anders's fault? Well, yes, I suppose,
but somebody had to do it.

The Chantry WAS a military target, as was the Grand
Cleric and other officials within the building. 

I see the points, but death is never right. I don't care if Meredith was in the chantry alone, or if it housed 100 Merediths. Anders' actions may bring another type of Tevinter magister rule, whether the mages want to or not-- considering all mages everywhere are now fighting desperately for their lives (i.e.; some will turn to blood magic, demons, possession).

War is cruel, yes-- but that said, I expect you both would have sided with Loghain in DA:O as he has the same ultimatum-eqsue mentality. I liked Anders, but any amount of rapport does not justify this. The fictional world of Thedas shouldn't have to suffer because my Hawke sees Anders as when he put out milk for cute little kitty kats, and not as he is now, a <insert overused word here>.

Modifié par twilekaoi, 07 mai 2013 - 07:08 .

[berelinde]

We can't speculate about the number of innocents who were injured or killed in the explosion. We can only go by what we are shown in the game. The chantry explosion is a pre-rendered cutscene and not subject to the limitations that real-time animation places on the number of actors and special effects used at one time. Had the developers wanted to show us a chantry packed full of orphans, lay siblings, and supplicants, they could have done so very easily, but they decided instead to show us a deserted building populated only by the grand cleric and six templars. Based on the beds and the kitchen area on the second floor, it seems as if the people who were in the building at the time actually lived there. Maybe that's why the building was locked down every night, unless the building was being used as a trap.

This infuriates me no end, but you can never match the exterior of the building with the interior. The outside was large - very much like a skyscraper - but a city the size of Kirkwall would have no need of a multi-storied building to house its church/government offices. Even cathedrals are rarely more than a few rooms (albeit very large rooms).

In Ferelden, we did see the chantry taking in orphans and refugees, and Leandra was clearly thinking of that when she sent Orana there, but Kirkwall seems to go by its own rules. Instead, we see orphans who are actually *turned away* from the chantry. Evelina petitions the chantry for shelter for the orphans under her care, but her request is denied, forcing her to live with them in Darktown. We see lots of clerics wandering around soliciting donations from the poor (*from* the poor, not *for* the poor, an important distinction), but we don't see anybody distributing alms. When we encounter Pryce later (or Walter and Cricket, or any of the other street urchins Hawke encounters), the best Hawke can do for them is to offer them private sponsorship, usually with the admonition to get out of Kirkwall. Nowhere does anybody suggest "Go to the Chantry, They help orphans." Except Leandra, who may have been operating under the assumption that Kirkwall was no different than Lothering. So, how is the Chantry spending its donations? There's a big construction project going on in the Docks in Act 3, and we see that the templars have expanded their ranks and are actively seeking to phase out the City Guard. Spending focuses on politics, not charity.

This discussion happens in this thread a lot.

Modifié par berelinde, 07 mai 2013 - 06:54 .

[twilekaoi]

Gyrefalcon wrote...

Uh, whoa.  I humbly disagree.  Loghain was the trusted advisor to the king.  In the hour the kingdom needed ALL of its fighters on the field, the "lauded strategist" QUIT THE FIELD not because it was good strategy, but because he wanted to overthrow the king.  If the army did not abandon the Grey Wardens on the field, do you really think that the town of Lothering would have been wiped out?  The threat of the Blight would not have ended, but the battle would very likely have had a completely different outcome.

He slaughtered combatants on his own side and caused schisms in the defenses of the country because of his own actions.  He was perfectly willing to chop the heads off of anyone who opposed him, regardless of whether they were right in their suspicions of his actions or not.  And because of all of this, MANY INNOCENTS suffered!  Most of the damage to Ferelden can be laid at Logain's feet.  And what was the point of it?  To convince people that the Grey Wardens were the enemy, and that he was the country's only hope.

For a master strategist, he did not believe in the severity of the threat, he did not account for how the loss of the king would affect the morale of his troops, nor did he bother to account for how his actions would split the ranks in the hour they needed unity the most.  A large number of innocent people died because of it.  So, no, Loghain is far from saintly.  He just wanted more power, saw his chance, and seized it.  His words belie his actions. 

Actually my point referred to Loghain and innocents in The Stolen Throne, as I wrote it, but for the sake of discussion I'll continue along your lines...

That (bad) decision to leave Ostagar was made with combatants in mind, not innocents. Every one of those soldiers volunteered, knowing they could die at any point. The aftermath- infighting, Howe, alienage-- is due to his bad judgement, on that we definitely agree. He and Anora admit this. From judging his scowling and cold character in Stolen Throne, I expected he thought Ferelden would jump to unity at the sight of The Hero of River Dane, and not Orlesian Grey Wardens. He is the Paragon of Fereldan freedom, but like any extremity, that's bad. Loghain has proved that. As is Anders, now.

In my opinion, I don't see Loghain as him killing Cailan just for power. Have you read Stolen Throne? I would've said the same about him, only prior to reading it though. Loghain is just a cold person, not bad, but not good either. He loved Maric, Rowan-- I'm pretty sure he loved Cailan too. But as I said, he's cold. Definitely give Stolen Throne a read if you haven't already, it's great.

I despise Loghain. But I can't compare him to Anders aside from their similiarities in extremity and the fact that Loghain still had not murdered an innocent to influence others while he had been opressed and on the run under Orlesian rule since he was born.

Anders was suffering from insanity.  As much as we, here, love the
character, it is clear that merging two minds in one body was taking its
toll on him.  Justice could not comprehend a world that was not
designed with absolutes.  And the spirit was driving Anders
mercilessly.  He was gaunt in DA2, he didn't sleep well, Justice
wouldn't allow him the respite of alcohol, he went through bouts of
manic activity alternated with severe depression.  So you wanted to save
him from himself as the player, to bring back old Anders.  There is the
hope that if Justice felt it had achieved some form of its goal, it
would lessen its hold on Anders.  It is a sad descent of a good
character and is more moving and gripping for it.  If it didn't have the
moral questions or personal struggle, no one would be writing about it
either in staunch defense nor in fierce hatred.  That is good
storytelling.

It's hard for me to sympathize when Anders states:

"I took a spirit into my soul and changed myself forever to achieve this! This is the Justice all mages have awaited."
"Did that spirit tell you to do this?"
"No. When we merged, he ceased to be. We are one now. I could no more ignore the injustice of the Circle than he could."

This implies that he admired (or felt jealous of) Justice's unwavering conviction in DAA, and that whole saving a friend bit was a lie, or probably just a bonus. Perhaps he took Justice into himself so he could gain that very persuasion, as he couldn't do it himself. Anyone who played DAA can say DAA Anders could never resort to terrorism, for sure.

Also, I don't think Anders is insane. A common, understandable belief is that terrorists must be suicidal, insane, or
psychopaths without moral feelings or feelings for others.
While I'm sure that's true in some cases, such is not the case for Anders. His act is solely based on feelings for his kind. He felt remorse, sitting on that crate, waiting for and accepting judgement.

As mentioned in another post above, it is entirely possible for a normal person to be terrorist under extreme circumstances. Just take a look at us (assuming you're American)-- our 'normal' military and police forces are capable of risking and killing innocents/non-combatants with laser precision bombs who just happen to live next to a terrorist compound.

Back on point, there is no saving Anders if he doesn't want to be saved. He made that very apparent with his 'I love you, but you're not the most important thing in my life' vibe. It is also obvious that he planned something like this from the start with his "No, don't love me because I'll only end up hurting you" bit. Anders isn't as innocent as you think, but all that is just my opinion based on his ultimatum. You see a sad story about a man who descends into insanity-- which is alright btw; I love your caring attitude and feel jealous of you because what I see is a story about a man who is past his descent and into renegade terrorism.

Edit: Maker's Breath (always wanted to say that) another reply while I typed this one up!

Modifié par twilekaoi, 08 mai 2013 - 12:49 .

[Renmiri1]

One man's terrorist is another man's "liberator"

We don't have to eve go into "it's just a game" here. Terrorism has been used to build a safe country to an oppressed group and the terrorists were lauded as heroes. Even in RL, it all depends on which side of the conflict you are on.

Renmiri1 wrote...

Menachem Begin the sixth Prime Minister of the State of Israel


On July 1, 1946, Moshe Sneh, chief of the Haganah General Headquarters, sent a letter to the then leader of the Irgun, Menachem Begin, which instructed him to "carry out the operation at the 'chick'", code for the King David Hotel

July 22, 1946, Jerusalem. Irgun attacks:The west wing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem which housed British Military Headquarters and other governmental offices was destroyed at 12:57 PM by explosives planted in the cellar by members of the Irgun terrorist gang. By the 26 of July the casualties were 76 persons killed, 46 injured and 29 still missing in the rubble. The dead included many British, Arabs and Jews.

Amichai Paglin was the Chief Operations Officer of the Irgun, the commander of the battle to conquer Jaffa in the 1948 Arab–Israeli War, and, following independence, Prime Minister Menachem Begin’s counter-terrorism advisor.

Real life example of a group that bombed a public place with combatants and non-combatants alike, killed 76 people and maimed almost 30 more.. And the people on the group were known as heroes and liberators.

It is easy to discuss a game and players opinions but if you want to make a political statement I suggest you do it to people who are backing terrorists right now, in the world we live in.

And let us enjoy our game in peace 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 08 mai 2013 - 03:17 .

[twilekaoi]

I'm not enforcing a political statement, I'm just calling it how I see it... But in any case, I hadn't realized this thread was more of a discussion of support for Anders-- be it pre Act 3 or after (which is totally fine btw; if people see him as a liberator, that's their choice and opinion and I respect that).

But I'll go ahead and stop heresince I get the vibe that I'm ruining the game for some. That wasn't my intent

Can't wait for DA3!

[Melca36]

twilekaoi wrote...



Aside form the fact that the chantry bomb wasn't the only atrocity factored into what Anders plan-- the chantry itself is huge. We only get to see the base floor. How do you know there weren't any citizen Andrastrians elsewhere in the building? What about the Lay Sisters/Brothers; regular unfortunate people/orphans (note: doesn't have to be religious) who "turned to the Chantry for succor", a life of quiet and contemplation as stated and experienced by Leliana? What of the Affirmed; academic scholars for the Chantry who chose not to bear arms as a combatant like a Templar, but rather seek knowledge and enlightment?

Not to mention the blood of the citizens caught around that blast radius (explosion affected the city itself), and the innocent mages of the Circle. Anders is a cunning terrorist. He vocally states he knows the consequences when confronted by Hawke. He knows that getting rid of Meredith won't 'free' the mages. To maximize his political influence, he blows up the Chantry and all its denizens inside.

By getting rid of Elthina, this allows Meredith to finally invoke the Right of Annulment with no 'peaceful' means to hold her back or allow Kirkwalls citizens to demand retribution and storm the Circle themselves (as noted by Meredith), or get killed by abominations running rampent in the streets in the process. Either way, the Circle and Kirkwall innocents are both caught up in this mess, as wanted and expected by Anders.

This all brings me back to my original, err ahem, narrative comparison of Anders and Timothy McVeigh. McVeigh also bombed an establishment of political embodiment (though he considered the building to be a combatant entity because it housed military recruitment centers). He got what he wanted, there were victims from all branches of the government, which included a childrens day care.

Just a reminder...Varric was being questioned at the Hawke estate. He did not wipe out Hightown like you assume.

As for the Chantry....

Darktown showed more people than the Chantry. If they wanted to have an emotional impact, they should have had more people in it. They should have showed the Chantry actually doing something.

[Gyrefalcon]

twilekaoi wrote...

I'm not enforcing a political statement, I'm just calling it how I see it... But in any case, I hadn't realized this thread was more of a discussion of support for Anders-- be it pre Act 3 or after (which is totally fine btw; if people see him as a liberator, that's their choice and opinion and I respect that).

But I'll go ahead and stop heresince I get the vibe that I'm ruining the game for some. That wasn't my intent

Can't wait for DA3!

Yes, you have wandered onto the "We love Anders" page.  However, this thread does allow for serious discussion of other viewpoints towards Anders and occasionally other characters.  We will debate with you, but you won't be called names or have bottles of wine being thrown at walls for wandering in here. 

There is a GREAT treatise on Anders waaaaaay back in the thread.  Points towards Anders insanity:  He was put into isolation for a solid year.  There is an entire movie about how this will drive a person insane.  His only companion during that time was the tower mouser, Mr. Wiggums, when it would come by on occasion.  Thus, when Sir-Pounce-A-Lot was taken away from Anders, it probably hurt him greatly.  He couldn't fall in love in the tower because the templars were always watching and would use a loved one as leverage against you.  Once in the Grey Wardens, he thought that was over, then they removed Sir-Pounce-A-Lot from him.  So he wasn't likely to feel safe there either.

Anders suffered from bouts of manic-depression in DA2.  They were well detailed.  He also had a second personality in his head.  If you follow the rivalry path it looks much like a magical form of multiple personality disorder.  And although you say, "he did this to himself" in my playthrough for Awakenings, I had encouraged the idea of Justice and Anders bonding.  So OOC I feel that Anders was pressured into the choice by his fellow Wardens.  Which then turned incredibly bad once their merry little band split up and he got labled an abomination.  The other Wardens LET the templars go after Anders.  

And outside of that, Anders lost everyone and everything he ever loved.  Justice would look like the answer to a prayer.  If he joined with Justice, he would never, ever be alone again.  Someone would be there who had his back and supported him.  And no templar, warden, or other person could ever rip this friend away from him.  His dream became a nightmare as Justice drove him mercilessly, would not let him rest properly, did not want him interacting with others except in the name of "The Cause", and would not allow Anders even the respite of alcohol despite all the horrors he had seen and experienced.  Oh yes, Anders represents the wounded dove 100%.

And I am quite curious about DA3 as well.  I waited so patiently for January to come for the new announcements, but they really clamped down on any information.  But June is supposed to be good, so hopefully they will indeed give us a real look at some chunks of the game.

[Nilfalasiel]

Few things here:

- Concerning Loghain. On top of everything Gyrefalcon mentioned, he sanctioned selling people into slavery to fund a civil war. And his unwillingness to collaborate with Orlais is hypocritical, since he was perfectly willing to deal with Tevinter and let them have a foothold in Fereldan politics with said transactions. So much for patriotism. He may not have single-handedly killed any innocents, but he was certainly responsible for a LOT of deaths and pain. And while I wouldn't say that he left Cailan to die only for power, he did do it in a single-minded, almost fanatical belief in his ability to rule the country better than him. He refused to see that it was clearly not working out and kept going against his country's best interests while screaming and shouting that he was doing it all for them. I don't remember him showing any repentance for his actions. All he ever says is that he may have been wrong, but not that he regrets it.

You know, in a way, he was just as much a glory hound as Cailan was. Only in a completely different manner.

- Concerning the Chantry explosion, I'm with berelinde here. Had they wanted to show us a building packed with orphans and refugees or even supplicants, they would have done so. They have done so before. As things stand, this was an almost-empty church in the middle of the night, filled with people who, at the very least, didn't oppose Elthina's way of seeing things and, at worst, supported her wholeheartedly. Moreover, the explosion we are shown barely affects the surrounding buildings: all we see are a couple of minor fires on neighbouring roofs. As has been pointed out, it's not as if Hightown has been reduced to a smoking pile of rubble. Again, had they wanted to show more damage, they could have. I'm not saying the bomb was the right thing to do or the right way to go about it (selective poisoning would've been my method of choice), but it strikes such a raw chord with a lot of people that it quickly tends to get blown out of proportion (pun not intended). 

Now, ascribing the victims from the mage uprising and subsequent war to Anders, I'd say that's fair enough: he was the cause of it, after all. But if you stopped him from killing Ella, you could still have a case that he hasn't single-handedly murdered any innocents and thus, is no worse than Loghain.

- Concerning "why Elthina and not Meredith". Elthina wasn't preserving peace, she was preserving a status quo. You could argue that nothing was getting worse (except it was: at the very least, the treatment of mages in the Gallows worsened, and Meredith had all but taken power...it was only a matter of time, IMO). But nothing was getting better either. If Elthina had been capable of achieving peace, she would already have done so; she had ten years to do something. Killing Meredith would only have prolonged the status quo in the long run.

twilekaoi wrote...

'I love you, but you're not the most important thing in my life' vibe.

That's not what he says though. He says "you are the most important thing in my life, but there are things that are more important than my life". Not quite the same meaning.

It is also obvious that he planned something like this from the start with his "No, don't love me because I'll only end up hurting you" bit.

Again, I disagree here. Considering that he was perfectly willing to establish dialogue with Elthina (as is apparent after the whole Mage Solution debacle), I'd say that he only started considering the bomb in the final year of the game. I see the "I'll only end up hurting you" as a general warning: he IS after all, far from being a normal person, and I can only imagine that living with him day-to-day isn't easy, to say the least.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 14 mai 2013 - 08:01 .

[berelinde]

Nilfalasiel wrote...

- Concerning "why Elthina and not Meredith". Elthina wasn't preserving peace, she was preserving a status quo. You could argue that nothing was getting worse (except it was: at the very least, the treatment of mages in the Gallows worsened, and Meredith had all but taken power...it was only a matter of time, IMO). But nothing was getting better either. If Elthina had been capable of achieving peace, she would already have done so; she had ten years to do something. Killing Meredith would only have prolonged the status quo in the long run.

I concur with this completely.

The big problem with "Kirkwall Compromise" was that it wasn't a compromise at all. It was the gradual erosion of the institution's already-endangered humanity.

Zealous templar: We have it on excellent authority that mages use their hands to cast blood magic.
Meredith: I knew it! Cut off their hands! All of them!
Mages: No! That's cruel! And not everyone with hands is using blood magic.
Elthina: We all want peace. Can we not compromise?
Meredith: Maybe just one hand, then.

The problem is that these "compromises" are cumulative. When something that was once punishment for the direst crimes is used for petty infractions or to maintain day-to-day order, you need harsher punishments for real crimes. I'm only surprised it took so long to spiral out of control.

This is going to sound strange and I don't expect anybody else to agree, but I believe Elthina knew what Anders was planning and understood the necessity of it. I think she genuinely wanted peace, but knew that the current situation was too far out of control to get there by negotiation. She seemed to welcome the possibility of martyrdom. Faced with the prospect of an Exalted March, she did not write to the Divine and ask her to reconsider, nor did she involve herself on a personal level at all. Instead, she chose to send Hawke - arguably the least effective missionary imaginable - to meet the agent of the Divine and assure her that everything in Kirkwall was fine-thank-you-don't-send-an-army-if-you-please. It's almost as if she knew that the only way a real balance of power could be restored was to do a full-party wipe and start over.

[Nilfalasiel]

berelinde wrote...

This is going to sound strange and I don't expect anybody else to agree, but I believe Elthina knew what Anders was planning and understood the necessity of it. I think she genuinely wanted peace, but knew that the current situation was too far out of control to get there by negotiation. She seemed to welcome the possibility of martyrdom. Faced with the prospect of an Exalted March, she did not write to the Divine and ask her to reconsider, nor did she involve herself on a personal level at all. Instead, she chose to send Hawke - arguably the least effective missionary imaginable - to meet the agent of the Divine and assure her that everything in Kirkwall was fine-thank-you-don't-send-an-army-if-you-please. It's almost as if she knew that the only way a real balance of power could be restored was to do a full-party wipe and start over.

You know, I did actually get that very same impression, especially when you help Anders infiltrate the Chantry and go distract her. At the very least, I think she knew there was going to be an attempt on her life, if not specifically the manner in which it was going to happen. However, I'm not sure she saw it as something for the general good. Simply as an occasion for martyrdom, as you say. I also think the argument that she sent Hawke to meet Leliana because she/he was an ineffective messenger is a little dangerous to make, because the game does assume that Hawke is a force to be reckoned with. I think her/his ineffectiveness is a bit too much of a meta element to be taken into account here. But maybe that's just me.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 14 mai 2013 - 10:06 .

[berelinde]

Hmm, yes, perhaps she did believe Hawke to be persuasive, but I am convinced that she knew it wouldn't do any good. She says "I am the Grand Cleric. Who would dare attack me?" with force and finality, but absolutely no confidence. It struck me as exactly the tone someone would use to say "It will all be alright" when they know perfectly well that it very much won't be. But yeah, I do tend to be way too meta when looking at games. Ever since I stumbled across "You'll see a sword real soon, I promise" in the Human Noble Origin, I haven't been able to help myself.

[Nilfalasiel]

berelinde wrote...

Ever since I stumbled across "You'll see a sword real soon, I promise" in the Human Noble Origin, I haven't been able to help myself.

Chekhov's gun, eh?

[Gyrefalcon]

Wow, I am really liking the discussion turn to look at the different sides of Elthina. She had some power given her rank as can be seen by her ability to dismiss Meredith and Orsino. However, that power is based on a respect for her position. If she pushed too hard against Meridith, there was a good chance Meridith would roll over her.

But I believe there is a point, when talking to Cullen or one of the templars at the Gallows that he calls Elthina either evil or cruel "for giving the mages false hope". It was a strange choice of words. When a hardened Kirkwall templar thinks you are cruel for showing a false kindness...? Or did she preach what she believed in despite staring down the opposite?

We have only that Sister/Mother Patrice was allowed to rage unchecked day after day after day against the Qunari to poison the hearts of the congregation against them. That takes time. There is no way that Elthina could have missed ALL of these sermons. Yet Patrice was allowed to rail on and was even elevated during that period.

Is Elthina busy? Is she too tired to put out all the fires? Is she stretched too thin, elsewhere?

I believe the dev's mentioned how much they enjoyed the line "I hope you found a BALM for your soul" that she says to Anders because it sounds like "bomb". But I can't recall if they mentioned whether or not that was hinting that Elthina knew something was up.

Seeking martyrdom for change for her people? I can see that as a distinct possibility. If she could not stop the fighting, she could become the symbol of sanity and moderation that people could look to after the inevitable war. Such an interesting topic and twist on the tale!

[dontwantanacc]

When you warn her that one of your associates may be plotting against the Chantry, she says that she has been threatened before and doesn't seem surprised in the slightest. All in all, it seems she did know something was going to happen (and possibly who was going to do it) but due to her faith she puts it down to the will of the Maker so she lets it happen.

There was also her line in the Faith quest about, "There is no greater devotion than to lay down one's life at the Maker's feet," again, kind of reinforcing that she did know what was going to happen and maybe sacrificed herself.
Theory-ahoy; it may explain why there were so few people shown in the Chantry at the time of the explosion. Maybe she had cleared people out of there under some false pretense?
Or then again, maybe not. She could well have just been a mad old biddy with too much faith.

[Melca36]

The way Elthina calmly walks up the stairs after Petrice is murder spoke volumes to me. She is not the innocent Grandmother everyone makes her out to be.

I also believed she knew she would die

[Renmiri1]

Gaider's latest post: Anders



http://dgaider.tumbl...o-look-grumpier

Modifié par Renmiri1, 27 mai 2013 - 01:41 .

[Gyrefalcon]

twilekaoi wrote...

I'm not enforcing a political statement, I'm just calling it how I see it.

Can't wait for DA3!

   I have to admit that I have not read The Stolen Throne. Honestly, until I heard about Asunder on the forums, I did not realize there were tie-in novels! But there is a new one out, set in Orlais.  I would love to see some feedback on that one if you have read it.  We are all curious as to what may lie in wait for us in DAIII.  I have heard some about the set up for the mage-templar war and even more exciting, that it is hinting at the long-awaited elven uprising.  Anyone else got news on it?  Just tag a spoiler alert at the top, since we are in the spoilers-allowed thread. I'd really appreciate more on that.

    Also, what are your thoughts on Elthina, twilekaoi?

[Renmiri1]

The one in orlais will be published in 2014

[Renmiri1]

Look what i found near my house!!!

[Nilfalasiel]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Look what i found near my house!!!

Now we know where Anders is hiding!

[berelinde]

Gee, you'd think an apostate would be better at hiding.

[Gyrefalcon]

Nerge? Is that what they are calling nug-hunters these days? Hmmm.

The Dragon Age Inquisition page put up a nice pic of Anders and Sir Pounce-A-Lot.  Lemme see if I can link it...

https://fbcdn-sphoto...817897550_n.jpg

Modifié par Gyrefalcon, 06 juin 2013 - 07:09 .

[Gyrefalcon]

So the first big reveal will be in 4 days for Inquisition. How many are going to scan every inch of it for a hint of our favorite apostate surviving?