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[Gyrefalcon]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Appearances usually change from game to game with graphics updates and engine changes. And we notice the changes, even the minute and unavoidable ones, because human beings (for the most part) notice faces. Merrill and Anders got some redesigning between DA:O/DA:A and DA2 that far outstrips Morrigan's changes, and despite all the fuss about it at the time, I don't see a horde of people complaining about it now.

Gyrefalcon wrote...
Riley: Or, on the bright side. Made our fanfiction come true. Huh? No? Too much to hope for?

David: I'm not sure we can fit THAT much sex into the plot.

You could always try, David. You could always try XD

Well, Morrigan in the "realistic" intro trailer for DA:O looked rather like Joan Jett to me rather than Morrigan.  And given how much time they have and the feedback, there will probably be a little tweaking.

@Nilfalasiel you are right, the lighting was off and the way the sequence ran I saw Varric as having his hair short and swept into a forward spike like a fighting game character.  It seems in the stills, it is just darker.  They did try to stay true, but since they gave him the big cut across his face they, naturally, altered the bridge of his nose.  However, (imo) it would have looked better to have it flatten out the wide bridge more rather than appear to make it more narrow.  It would look less pretty and more like an injured Varric. 

Sable Rhapsody has a point that we are often unhappy with changes to our favorite characters.  But Anders looked intensely like Anders, just thinner, gaunt, and haunted.  He looked like a man on the run who wasn't getting fed by some Circle Tower cook anymore.  Even his costume had poorly laced bits from his "finer" outfit used as sleeves on his new one.  There was a lot of attention to detail on him.  Not everyone liked it at first but we certainly fell for the lure hook line and sinker here didn't we?    But there are a good number of Anders haters who did as well.  Hence the hurt at his apparent betrayal.  (Isabella can keep a secret that risks killing the whole city and gets the secular ruler killed, but when Anders does it and gets the religious ruler killed, WELL, that is totally different!  It was only that the player did not get to make the call, the character did.  Yet you had a seeming choice with Isabella and she would still possibly run off, but that illusion of choice made all the difference.)

So as Varric receives his scar in-game it probably won't bother me as much.  But I have to wonder how far forward this is?  DA2 was basically at the same time as DA:  Origins.  I would expect a decade on Morrigan but Varric's looking more worn than when Cassandra spoke to him at the end of DA2.   Just the war wearing on him?  And I hope his hair returns to its lighter sandy shade, but I've seen blondes get darker with age before so if not, I guess I will adjust.

Any thoughts about Sebastian's role?  I skipped even bothering with his download since I needed another person against Anders like I needed a hole in my head.   But they said his bit is cannon, so do you think he will be hunting down the man who started the whole thing?

[dontwantanacc]

I reckon Sebastian will feature in DA:I but his attention's probably slipped away from Anders (if he's still alive.) He's probably more interested in supporting the Chantry/ stability for Starkhaven. However, this is Mr Can't-Make-Up-His-Damned-Mind so who knows. That's what I like about Sebastian's potential, it could go either way. Throughout DA2 he seemed to want to do what he thought was right, even if it did go against the Chantry to some extent.

I don't mind the new character looks. I don't understand some of the negative comments about Morrigan in particular; she looks like Morrigan. What were people expecting? The same thing happens time and time again; a sequel gets announced, graphics are different and people **** on about how it's not as good. Time goes on then the first game looks old and dated and everyone likes the newer look more.
I've got a feeling that none of the trailer footage will actually be in the game when completed. Still over a year to go, no doubt things will be tweaked, tweaked again and tweaked to within an inch of it's life.

My main hope for this game is that it won't be too dark. By that, I don't mean death and despair, I mean the lighting. I'm sick of playing games that are practically pitch-black and you can't see a damned thing. DA2 got that right. The environments were dark (caves, tunnels etc) but you could see where you were going.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Gyrefalcon wrote...
Any thoughts about Sebastian's role?  I skipped even bothering with his download since I needed another person against Anders like I needed a hole in my head.   But they said his bit is cannon, so do you think he will be hunting down the man who started the whole thing?

I loved Sebastian, especially rival Sebastian, so I'd be down to see him crusading in DA:I.  I know Seb's wishy washy in DA2, but he actually did sound like he meant business when he threatened to hunt down Anders.  Seb's the kind of person to get fixated on things; he also has the most reasons to hate Anders, and by extension Hawke, especially if Hawke romanced Anders.

[Gyrefalcon]

I got to see the trailer again on the Dragon Age FB page. I had better definition on it than on the gametrailers E3 version. It might well be Cassandra in the keep now that the hair doesn't look red and the graphics are a bit clearer. I tried to look for the similar circlet or braid in the battle scene and I think it could be there.

Now that I've looked closer at the familiar characters I started looking at the new bits. Did anyone notice the red lyrium encrusted creature that showed up? We have a big dragon with very small eyes, a shrieker-esque thing with an unhinged jaw as big as a snowshoe and similarly shaped, and something that reminds me of the Architect. Do you think these are the major bosses, not to mention Kunari and Elven factions making pushes of their own? Do you think it's going to feel like an advanced version of Luigi's Mansion 2?

And although most of it is set in Orlais, or expected to, with the promise of such huge levels do you think we will have to do some world traveling to push back this terror from beyond the Fade?

[thats1evildude]

I have a hunch that the weird monsters that showed up will be boss monsters. The crystal man does look to be a human mutated with red lyrium, while the creature with the elongated jaw seems to be a hunger demon. (Maybe an uber-hunger demon.)

Modifié par thats1evildude, 14 juin 2013 - 05:46 .

[Nilfalasiel]

thats1evildude wrote...

the creature with the elongated jaw

Getting very uncomfortable Amnesia flashbacks here...Ogod, the Grunts...

I don't actually mind characters getting different appearances per se, because it's not exactly a new thing: Morrigan, Leliana and Sten already looked very different from their DAO trailer selves, and Anders changed between DAA and DA2 as well, as has already been pointed out. What bothers me is when the difference in appearance either has an uncanny valley feel to it (DAI Morrigan's jaw and mouth are definitely weird to me), or when the change makes the character look uglier - IMO of course - as was the case for Zevran and Alistair in DA2, for example. 

About Sebass: he's a born waffler. Sure, he can get fixated on things, but has he ever done anything decisive by himself without someone helping him out? He's not been able to raise an army to reclaim Starkhaven, I don't think he'll be a whole lot more successful raising an army to make good on his threat to Hawke. And I'm really in no hurry to see him again. But hey: we've already been force-fed Leliana for a while, it can't be worse than that, surely.

[NRieh]

Could anyone possibly remind me - where and what exactly was stated about Ju-nders relations with Fade? Justice takes over during dreamer's quest, so Anders can no longer visit fade as himself, am I correct? Can he even see the dreams, I wonder?..

[Sable Rhapsody]

Nrieh wrote...

Could anyone possibly remind me - where and what exactly was stated about Ju-nders relations with Fade? Justice takes over during dreamer's quest, so Anders can no longer visit fade as himself, am I correct? Can he even see the dreams, I wonder?..

It's just a guess, but I think entering the Fade in Feynriel's dream is a special case, since the Keeper's ritual can send even non-mages there.  Anders does say that he's avoided the Fade since Justice, though arguably he wouldn't NEED to ever visit it himself.  Karl describes Justice as a "piece of the Fade inside Anders, burning like a sun."

Anders' relationship with Justice is kept purposely vague, probably because even Anders doesn't understand it all that well.

[berelinde]

Anders tells Hawke that the nightmares about the Archdemon don't go away, so I'm guessing that he still dreams. I think the distinction is whether the mage retains consciousness or not. If it's just a dream, it's not conscious thought, and it's all Anders. If he is still awake and alert but surrenders control of his conscious thought (the situation with Karl or with Ella, or in the Fade since he isn't the one steering), it's Justice. Which kinda makes me wonder what would happen if mage!Hawke entered the Fade while Anders was asleep and found him there...

[Gyrefalcon]

berelinde wrote...

Anders tells Hawke that the nightmares about the Archdemon don't go away, so I'm guessing that he still dreams. I think the distinction is whether the mage retains consciousness or not. If it's just a dream, it's not conscious thought, and it's all Anders. If he is still awake and alert but surrenders control of his conscious thought (the situation with Karl or with Ella, or in the Fade since he isn't the one steering), it's Justice. Which kinda makes me wonder what would happen if mage!Hawke entered the Fade while Anders was asleep and found him there...

I am not certain if he does or not.  Justice barely lets him rest in general.  Lack of sleep only strengthens Justice and weakens Anders.  He might hold his leash in the Fade as well.

However, the idea of a story about what happens when mage!Hawke (or any Hawke that gets sent into the Fade w/o Anders) coming across sleeping Anders is a GREAT story idea!!  This should be a contest somewhere.  Maybe the Deviant Art Anders fan page?  Should it be on this thread?  That is just a great theme.  Bravo, Berelinde!

[Sable Rhapsody]

Gyrefalcon wrote...
I am not certain if he does or not.  Justice barely lets him rest in general.  Lack of sleep only strengthens Justice and weakens Anders.  He might hold his leash in the Fade as well.

I got less the impression that Justice wouldn't let him sleep and more the impression that Justice is a pretty harsh taskmaster.  He doesn't let Anders drink, relax, or have fun.  But sleeping, eating, those are all things that are necessary for Anders' survival.

[hobbit of the shire]

Does Justice affect Anders' taint? If I interpret the DA world correctly, the Taint has nothing to do with the Fade. The Archdemon is some kind of evil godly thing and the taint of the darkspawn affects dreams, which are in the Fade. But does the taint and the Fade have any kind of influence on each other? I sort of think of the taint as like a slow chronic fatal disease. Affects the body in various ways. The Fade on the other hand is the spirit world.... your dreams, non-earthly. The taint manifests itself inside the Fade, yet to me darkspawn and the Fade seem like 2 totally separate things. What does it mean when a spirit is inside a diseased body? Can it heal you? Can it make you immune to the taint? Can it perhaps ASSUME the taint (e.g., Justice bears the taint rather than Anders)? I'm spitting out ideas because I wonder what would happen to Anders post-DA2. If the 2 could be split up again, or if either Anders or Justice dies, and the other survives, does the still-living person contain the taint or does the taint die with the dead person? Could the taint preserve either Justice or Anders should one of them die? That is, if in theory Justice and Anders cannot be un-merged, could the still living "taint" keep one of the separated members alive? Part of the Archdemon entered the Godbaby, correct? Therefore, can the darkspawn taint actually be a part of the living Archdemon and sustain life in someone?

Random musings from someone who is not too knowledgeable on DA lore. :-P

[Caeleinn]

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

Does Justice affect Anders' taint? If I interpret the DA world correctly, the Taint has nothing to do with the Fade. The Archdemon is some kind of evil godly thing and the taint of the darkspawn affects dreams, which are in the Fade. But does the taint and the Fade have any kind of influence on each other? I sort of think of the taint as like a slow chronic fatal disease. Affects the body in various ways. The Fade on the other hand is the spirit world.... your dreams, non-earthly. The taint manifests itself inside the Fade, yet to me darkspawn and the Fade seem like 2 totally separate things. What does it mean when a spirit is inside a diseased body? Can it heal you? Can it make you immune to the taint? Can it perhaps ASSUME the taint (e.g., Justice bears the taint rather than Anders)? I'm spitting out ideas because I wonder what would happen to Anders post-DA2. If the 2 could be split up again, or if either Anders or Justice dies, and the other survives, does the still-living person contain the taint or does the taint die with the dead person? Could the taint preserve either Justice or Anders should one of them die? That is, if in theory Justice and Anders cannot be un-merged, could the still living "taint" keep one of the separated members alive? Part of the Archdemon entered the Godbaby, correct? Therefore, can the darkspawn taint actually be a part of the living Archdemon and sustain life in someone?

Random musings from someone who is not too knowledgeable on DA lore. :-P

You aren't the only person to wonder that.  In fact, at the Thedas UK Con in January 2012, David Gaider was asked pretty much that same question.

TUK: Can I ask, what effect- if any- Anders being merged with Justice is going to have on his Calling?

DG:
Uh...interesting. I'm getting some...okay, it's gone now, I was hearing
a mental voice there, it was weird. [laughter] There were some plans to
address that but in the end it became very complicated. I think there
are a couple possibilities. One is that the spirit within Anders can
affect the level of his corruption, so it may delay or remove the
necessity for his Calling altogether. Either that or at some point the
corruption within Anders is going to corrupt the spirit. I think those
are the two most likely outcomes. I'm not going to say which of those we
prefer, because Anders can survive DA2 so therefore there's a
possibility that we may need him in the future.

This is actually pretty good interview, full of all kinds of interesting bits from Mr. Gaider.  You can find the full interview here.

[Nilfalasiel]

Caeleinn wrote...

I'm not going to say which of those we prefer, because Anders can survive DA2 so therefore there's a possibility that we may need him in the future.

Good. Verrrrrry good

As for the topic at hand, I was of the opinion that Anders' taint is part of the reason why Justice turned into Vengeance. Yes, the taint was also present in Kristoff's body, but Kristoff wasn't alive, so it was probably not as powerful within him. Still, since I date Justice path down the slippery slope of Vengeance to the moment when he started feeling envy for Kristoff's life, I think there's a case to be made for the taint being instrumental in his eventual downfall.

I think there's also a third possibility: who says that Justice can't absorb the taint, thus removing it from Anders, but becoming corrupted in the process? Not that that would be a very appealing outcome, but since Gaider also said that Justice and Anders could be separated, it would give us all the more incentive to do so.

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 23 juin 2013 - 08:45 .

[Addictress]

since justice could animate Kristoff, maybe Vengeance will animate Anders beyond even his death outcome so Anders will appear in DAI for everybody

[Sable Rhapsody]

Addictress wrote...

since justice could animate Kristoff, maybe Vengeance will animate Anders beyond even his death outcome so Anders will appear in DAI for everybody

To keep from repeating the whole hulabaloo over "retconning" deaths, it would have to very clearly be Vengeance with no trace of Anders, and probably a different look--namely, a decaying one like Kristoff's.  At most, some of Anders' memories and mannerisms might be left over, as Kristoff's were when Justice first inhabited him.

TBH, I think Vengeance without Anders makes for a fascinating plot point, but a poor companion NPC.  Most companion NPCs in BioWare's games are designed to be sympathetic, and most don't consistently cause trouble for the PC.  Vengeance by the end of DA2 is dangerous, extremely volatile, and almost wholly unsympathetic.  

[Nilfalasiel]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

To keep from repeating the whole hulabaloo over "retconning" deaths, it would have to very clearly be Vengeance with no trace of Anders, and probably a different look--namely, a decaying one like Kristoff's.  At most, some of Anders' memories and mannerisms might be left over, as Kristoff's were when Justice first inhabited him. 

It may be an interesting plot point, but it would break my heart to see this.

[dontwantanacc]

With this massive rip in the Veil/Fade - would Justice/Vengeance (or any other demon for that matter) need to possess a host?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
It may be an interesting plot point, but it would break my heart to see this.

Oh, me too   It's funny; I've become more disenchanted with Anders' goals the more I play DA2, but I also find him more sympathetic as a person each time.  

dontwantanacc wrote...

With this massive rip in the Veil/Fade - would Justice/Vengeance (or any other demon for that matter) need to possess a host?

Shades already eschew hosts, but they seem to only be the weaker demons of the Fade.  We've also seen desire demons physically manifest in their "normal" form outside the Fade, and the occasional pride demon like Hybris.  I'd say that before the Fade tear, demons could appear without hosts, but it was restricted to a) very weak demons or very powerful demons with humans to feed upon.  

Now, it's probably a free-for-all.  More demons manifested without hosts in Kirkwall than in Ferelden (I think), and we already know Kirkwall's Veil is damaged.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 24 juin 2013 - 09:00 .

[hobbit of the shire]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
I think there's also a third possibility: who says that Justice can't absorb the taint, thus removing it from Anders, but becoming corrupted in the process? Not that that would be a very appealing outcome, but since Gaider also said that Justice and Anders could be separated, it would give us all the more incentive to do so.

So say 20 or 30 years down the road, if Justice absorbed the taint fully, Justice then "dies" and Anders one day wakes up just himself, untainted again?  Then again, Justice would feel the Calling and drag Anders to the Deep Roads with him.  What happens if someone is prevented from going to their Calling?

[Nilfalasiel]

hobbit_of_the_shire wrote...

So say 20 or 30 years down the road, if Justice absorbed the taint fully, Justice then "dies" and Anders one day wakes up just himself, untainted again?  Then again, Justice would feel the Calling and drag Anders to the Deep Roads with him.  What happens if someone is prevented from going to their Calling?

Actually, I was thinking something more along the lines of: Justice keeps absorbing the taint, thus becoming more and more corrupted, and thus more of a danger to Anders, so that it becomes crucial to separate them. Because, for instance, a friended Anders may be more reluctant to separate from Justice otherwise.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
Actually, I was thinking something more along the lines of: Justice keeps absorbing the taint, thus becoming more and more corrupted, and thus more of a danger to Anders, so that it becomes crucial to separate them. Because, for instance, a friended Anders may be more reluctant to separate from Justice otherwise.

But the darkspawn taint is a physical thing, isn't it?  You drink their blood to acquire it; I'm guessing it's not a corruption of the spirit.  It's more of a slow-acting magical poison.  So how would Justice, who is a spirit, "absorb" something that's physical in origin?  

Even assuming Justice can interact with the darkspawn taint, how would one go about separating Justice from Anders?  His potion was a ruse, so that's no good.  Anders mentioned that the Tevinters sought to reverse spirit possession, so there's potential there if he wasn't lying about it.  Something like the Rite of Tranquility probably wouldn't work either, as Anders can reverse Tranquility in Karl simply by letting Justice out.

[Nilfalasiel]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

But the darkspawn taint is a physical thing, isn't it?  You drink their blood to acquire it; I'm guessing it's not a corruption of the spirit.  It's more of a slow-acting magical poison.  So how would Justice, who is a spirit, "absorb" something that's physical in origin?

Well, is it a magical poison or is it physical in origin? If it's magical, spirits are one of the possible sources of magic, so I don't see a contradiction in the fact of a spirit being affected by magic.

If it's physical in origin, there are other instances of spirits being affected by/assuming physical functions. For instance, how does Wynne's spirit keep her alive? That entails taking over/replacing her physical functions. Moreover, why would this weaken it?

Or how do Anders' emotions, which are, after all, just chemical/hormonal reactions, affect Justice?

Even assuming Justice can interact with the darkspawn taint, how would one go about separating Justice from Anders?  His potion was a ruse, so that's no good.  Anders mentioned that the Tevinters sought to reverse spirit possession, so there's potential there if he wasn't lying about it.  Something like the Rite of Tranquility probably wouldn't work either, as Anders can reverse Tranquility in Karl simply by letting Justice out.

That one, I don't know. All I know is that Gaider has stated it to be possible.

Wasn't there also something in the Codex about the Rivaini having experience with spiritual possession?

Modifié par Nilfalasiel, 26 juin 2013 - 12:53 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Nilfalasiel wrote...
If it's physical in origin, there are other instances of spirits being affected by/assuming physical functions. For instance, how does Wynne's spirit keep her alive? That entails taking over/replacing her physical functions. Moreover, why would this weaken it?

Or how do Anders' emotions, which are, after all, just chemical/hormonal reactions, affect Justice?

Hmm.  Justice doesn't seem to take over Anders' physical functions except on the occasions where Anders loses control of him.  I suppose if Justice was in control of Anders' body on a more frequent basis, he'd be able to interact with the taint?  I don't know, TBH.  I always thought the darkspawn taint was purely physical as its transmission is based on contact with darkspawn blood.  It seems to act like some kind of poison.  But you're right; it could have some magical elements that Justice can affect.  Not sure if that'd be enough to save Anders, though.

Anders' emotions IMO are more a matter of him losing the mental control necessary to keep Justice in check.  

The Codex entry on Rivain includes the following:

"The Rivaini refuse to be parted from their seers, wise women who are in fact hedge mages, communicating with spirits and actually allowing themselves to be possessed. The Chantry prohibition against such magical practices violates millennia of local tradition."

[hobbit of the shire]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Hmm.  Justice doesn't seem to take over Anders' physical functions except on the occasions where Anders loses control of him.  I suppose if Justice was in control of Anders' body on a more frequent basis, he'd be able to interact with the taint?

Medically speaking, with neurons firing and the brain doing its stuff (there goes the extent of my medical know how), even Anders' thoughts are a physical function, sort of.  Anyway....  I wonder if Anders went to sleep with Justice in charge (would Justice actually let him sleep while in charge, however?), would Justice experience the darkspawn dreams?  I would be interested in Justice's opinion on these dreams.  Would he be immune to the emotions.  Would he find injustice on the burden placed on Anders?  Would he want vengeance on the darkspawn?