(did u see wat I did thar? how I made silly assumptions about you and what you like and how Anders makes you feel, and wrapped it all up in one condescending question specifically tailored to make myself feel good without actually looking for an answer? because if I had wanted a real answer, I would have asked politely, and with respect.)
I wasn't trying to be "condescending" I just want to know why my girlfriend is obsessed with him which is why I quoted her and asked.
I thought Awakening Anders was too much of a womanizer, but I admired him for his drive and talent to escape the Circle. I thought DA2 Anders was too broody and too much of an ass, although I blame most of that on Justice. I admire him for his dedication to a just cause and the work he does for the poor, although I cannot forgive him for his terrorism.
BUT if you combine DA:A and DA2 Anders, and take away Justice, he's funny, sweet, kind-hearted, hard-working and resolute. And he's cute!
Lots of head canon, I suppose.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I still can't believe they turned him into such a disaster. He was my second favorite companion in DA awakening. I liked him so much. What they did to him is an atrocitiy committed by necessity of story telling and even worse, to move along a story that is frankly quite awful. His potential was vast. Seeing him become what some would say was a great warden, seeing the end slide you get when you conscript him and he finally has a home and goes out to teach about the Architect then returns to the wardens... I felt so good about that. Then they use that damn Justice (who I knew might be trouble from the minute he came to in that corpse) to destroy him just makes him so naively stupid given he clearly hates blood mages and possession is not something he likes at all. There's no logic to this madness. It doesn't even make sense that he would do this since he feels blood mages just make it worse. Yet he allows himself to become possessed by a spirit... even a seemingly good one.... GAH!
Of all the things I can barely forgive BW this might be hands down one of the worst. Most of DA2 - what it is compared to DAO is hard to swallow and certainly earned it no favors since really I don't even feel like it is the same game and can't even bring myself to play it a second time because it's just that bad in my opinion after what DAO was. (Again, as a game it is good - I do not contest that. As a DA game it is terrible. Average games I play once, maybe twice, then return or delete. RPG games I generally keep and replay a dozen times over. I still like non RPG games, but they have limited value and really are only mildly entertaining or engrossing. This is what DA2 is compared to DAO which I find rather amazing and quite enjoyable even if I have a few qualms with how things are done. It is still an amazing game. DA2, not even close.) Add in what they did to my second favorite character from DAA and I'm finding it hard to have much faith in DAI. In fact, I am exceedingly cautious for I will not be heartbroken yet again. Luckily so far it looks like there might only be one sure recurring character. Let's hope they don't shove a spirit down his throat and turn him into a ticking bomb for the sake of plot progression.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I don't think it was all Bioware's fault. I do think the game was rushed out as soon as the character parts were done. The streets are so empty, the mini-map doesn't even bother to update enough to look like a different area, it just has sections blocked off. Sooo much wandering around into random encounters, so little time to prepare for important bits that get dropped into your lap entirely unexpectedly. And I, too, hated Act I. I was ready to sell the disk back at that point.
But Act II really made up for it for me. And although you are correct that all the love interests are "hot messes", consider 2 things: This is done like the middle book of a trilogy, there is some familiarity of events from the first tale and a few familiar faces, but the resolution is not as complete as we would like. Secondly, look closer at Hawke. We are thinking of Hawke as over-coming all these really terrible events. But what if Hawke didn't come away unscathed? Those love interests represent the psychological impact of losing all the people Hawke loved in his/her life. The effect of being sold into indentured servitude, etc. Hawke is choosing love interests that are as broken as Hawke him/herself is. Really changes the spin on things doesn't it?
Character development and story is the writer or writers' fault. That is generally something that BW would be aware of or do they not pay attention to the story that is created in their games? Starting to seem like they don't given ME3 and DA2.
Middle of a trilogy is not really an excuse. I don't mean to argue. I'm just saying that nothing can really justify all the changes made from DAO to DA2, how overall awful the game was by comparison, the rush factor and that the companions really are a disaster. I mean if they were going for a sense of desperation in pairing up with all these companions and using them to help you then sure, they achieved that. There is quite an air of desperation because frankly, Aveline and Bethany (haven't played carver and probably won't) along with Varric are the only ones that feel like they have some sembelence of sanity or aren't about to implode in some way that will put Hawke in a bad position. In that way the writing is also very predictable. I saw something was going to go awry with Anders, Isabel, and Fenris. I gave them some leeway because it was a game but in real life I would have probably just banished them from my life. Merrill is also somewhat disconcerting regarding the mirror. But yet I can truly understand what she is trying to do though I do not help her in the end because it would be a risk I deem not worth taking - abominations and possession. She can go that one alone. I've just watched Fenris and Isabel go sideways. I'm done helping people with things that lead to implosions.
Anders has just become a sociopath - straight out. Sorry but I murdered him when he wouldn't join me to purge the tower of mages. Dude set off a bomb, destroyed a chantry. While I think they are all zealots and do not agree with them, I do not condone this level of insanity which he used me to create. There is no hope for him. There just isn't. He is a useful mage so I use him. But I will always kill him for this action. Now, if he murdered Meredith, I'd have backed that as she was the cause and it was only one life. Blowing up an entire building of people where a portion of them have shown to be sympathetic toward the mages earns him no leniency. Meridith is the true problem. His aim was off due to his inability to even be reasonable. Again, crappy writing. But it could have worked if they found a way to have him gun for Meredith. Then you might have had half the templars side with you seeing how nuts she was. He would not have looked as bad and when the lyrium bit was revealed he might have even been leaning more toward a hero for being the one who saw the true root of the problem all along. Outcomes would have still been the same minus the needless bombing.
But this is BW for you. Instead of seeing how they could accomplish the same thing through a different path that would have actually made it all make much more sense, especially given all you see previously (templars not fond of meredith and her ways, both templars and mages finding her to be too extreme) ... they still choose a path that forces extreme madness. You could have still had her survive with anders attempting to murder her. You could have still had her order the right after her reaction and mages/templars conflict ensues. But in this way, it is logical. Like taking out Hitler. Anders then while clearly an extremist for such an action actually can be easily supported because he was going for the true root of the problem. Some rewriting could have salvaged him beautifully. Could have made it really intersting too if it hadn't been as clear as mage/templar but perhaps mages with templars who side with mages for what meredith had done (true guardians who see their duty is also to protect mages from becoming possessed rather than just policing them, who see their job as two fold... protect the mages as well as protect against possessions and abominations). That would have been brilliant and given the story much more depth. You do see it in Cullen at moments. You see it in Gregor when he admits it is too painful to hope for survivors and find none. In that moment in DAO I realize that Gregor has more to him that meets the eye. Gregor is a man of depth. He sees himself as a protector and a servant (unless he is talking only of the templars, but I like to think it is of both because that would make his character truly great so I see it as both).
Again, I don't mean this as an attack on what you said, I'm just seeing how there were much better options and a truly good writer could have accomplished what needed to be accomplished without destroying the character. And a truly good writer could have done it in a way that would have really accentuated that not all templars hate mages which was a point that was already made, and that some would defend them with their lives, true guardians. It also would have made the conflict even more complex for the ending, that there are now templars who stand in the middle so not just mages vs templars since NOTHING is ever THAT simple.
Instead of seeing how they could accomplish the same thing through a different path that would have actually made it all make much more sense, especially given all you see previously (templars not fond of meredith and her ways, both templars and mages finding her to be too extreme) ... they still choose a path that forces extreme madness.
Despite how drastic it was, I thought the blowing-up Chantry bit was pretty epic writing. I don't believe Anders (as originally written in DA:A) would have ever done it (nor would have ever merged with Justice). But assuming that DA2 Anders was a different guy, I thought that plot twist was damn good. Oh man was I ever mad for him to have done it, but that's some gutsy writing. As Hawke, I wish there could have been a choice to save him from himself, but I have no qualms that it was left as a crit path.
The companions on the other hand ......
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
I think it is more Woobie oriented. Anders was quite likeable in the first game. Here he is hunted and haunted and you play it and hope that offering a constant anchor point might allow him to pull out of his spiral. But he can't stand seeing what the Templars are doing to the other mages to the point of taking desperate measures and dragging Hawke along for the ride. If you ride this out to the "run away with me into the sunset" ending, you are left wondering if he will actually improve. Hence the dissatisfaction with the presented ending. It isn't what the developers are likely to make canon (seeing that Adam Howden has not been tapped for DA3), but we want to see some sort of hope rising in this endless blight. Clearly Ferelden is not doing well since we left it by the king's own admission. So we want to be able to save someone.
Anders is the same as Isabella. Isabella causes the whole city to burn with her bit with the book and Anders does the same with his manifesto, yet there is no (or little) outcry on Isabella. The difference: Being allowed to make the choice as the PC. Everyone hates that Anders does not invite them to decide *actively* to join him. Both ask for your help, both betray you. But Isabella's deception is considered lesser even if she leaves you to twist in the wind and takes off with the book. Yet Anders follows the same basic set-up but the reaction is completely different. And even the Anders supporters do not like that he makes that final step without them. Yet Isabella takes off with the book and only returns to help if your friendship is high enough. Anders will fight Templars with you at the end if you let him. But these two things, designed to be similar, do not have the same feeling in execution.
How do you see Anders vs. Isabella and Fenris vs. Merrill?
Isabela feels different to me. Yes, she saved that book for herself. She caused the riots. But she really didn't see that coming because she's not that bright. If you have enough influence with her she returns the book. I've never been able to get anders to do anything to help if I didn't side with the mages. Also, she did not intentionally blow up a chantry. She did not intentionally start a war. Once she knew it was happening she will return for friendship and do the right thing. Anders however will not under any circumstance that I have played.
Guest_starlitegirlx_*
Despite how drastic it was, I thought the blowing-up Chantry bit was pretty epic writing. I don't believe Anders (as originally written in DA:A) would have ever done it (nor would have ever merged with Justice). But assuming that DA2 Anders was a different guy, I thought that plot twist was damn good. Oh man was I ever mad for him to have done it, but that's some gutsy writing. As Hawke, I wish there could have been a choice to save him from himself, but I have no qualms that it was left as a crit path.
The companions on the other hand ......
But he was the same guy so they basically brain screwed him. It's the most appalling bit of character rewriting I've ever seen and makes me want to vomit. I hate anders now and kill him every time. DAA... he was likable to me. Not Nathaniel level of like, but there was absolutely NOTHING about his character that made me dislike him to that degree.
Given that the writing of the game is really not very good in general and the story in and of itself is weak and not really fleshed out yet the writer tries to be uber clever/smart using acts which kind of fails in an epic way, all I can say is that this character rewrite for Anders is the final nail in the coffin showing that whatever hack writer wrote this should probably stick to writing crappy games that nobody buys.
Why do women love Anders? Is it his anarchist/martyr/renegade image that gets you?
In some playthroughs, I love him because he's the exact opposite of Fenris in terms of attitude. I've romanced both and I wish Anders had as much attention as Fenris did (unlike Fenris, he doesn't even have a theme song for the dialogue scenes with you).
Fenris believes in oppression for others (mages), is sarcastic, dependent (during rivalmance, he confesses he expected Hawke to change his life), hurtful (he always offends most of your other companions), hysteric and resentful.
He may be very loyal to Hawke if you help him and will remain by your side, regardless of your choices (mages or templars), but he corresponds to the kind of people in real life who tend to be emotionally harmful to their significant other in a relationship.
It's no wonder Anders represents the exact opposite of this. While Fenris is himself caged without being aware and repeats this dominance/submission theme throughout his life, Anders fights for personal freedom and freedom for others. He's a liberator. Anders is also passionate, but he's not dominating or submissive. He is an emotional man, who knows how to treat you and respect your feelings (his consoling words after Hawke's mother dies are wonderful).
And unlike Fenris, he doesn't expect you to save him from anything; he takes the initiative where his interests are concerned. He follows his conscience, regardless of your opinion. So he's the kind of man who respects a woman, respects her freedom, believes in compromise and understands feelings. How many men are like that?
If Anders were not so obssessed with the mage plight, he would be a great companion for Hawke. Ironically, it's his martyr obssession which ruins the romance in the end.
But he was the same guy so they basically brain screwed him. It's the most appalling bit of character rewriting I've ever seen and makes me want to vomit. I hate anders now and kill him every time.
That's your point of view, but don't think it's the only right one. If you don't like a character - it's your problem, not his, not ours and not writers'.
Characters are not written to be ultimately loved and appealing. Isabela always runs away with the book in my PT, because nothing can make me tolerate her in my party, but I'm not calling her 'badly writtern' or 'brainwashed', neither do I compare her with DAO version.
I don't have any issues with DAA-DA2 Anders, at all. Heck, this man speaks about Templars and justice 10 minutes after you recruit him! DA2 Anders still has enough of his sense of humor - it's all over his banters and companion dialogues. He always took the Magic serious (DAA, banters with Sigurn). He always hated circles and templars. Now add Justice and his ideas.
The only thing that bothers me about DAA-DA2 difference is Greg Ellis, they should've searched for a new VA. Howden is the only 'real' Anders for me.
But he was the same guy so they basically brain screwed him. It's the most appalling bit of character rewriting I've ever seen and makes me want to vomit.
This is curious: you seem to be effectively assuming that the writers worked in some sort vacuum for each game and had no sense of how their characters were going to develop over the course of DA:A and DA:2. It is, however, perfectly clear from the banter between Nathaniel, Justice and Anders (not to mention statements from the devs themselves) that a merger was EXACTLY the way they were planning to go. There is also so much foreshadowing of it in DA:A that I don't really know where to begin!
Did you not hear Anders' fury in DA:A if you challenged him about the effectiveness of the Circle? Or to Justice's challenge to Anders about doing something to right the injustice of the mages' plight? And the merger itself was Nathaniel's idea...
Obviously the writers knew where they wanted the story to go in DA:2 - and I understand that you dislike that direction - and the merger with Justice was a way to achieve that. However, that does not, in itself, diminish the validity of the character development. Whilst some characters are merely buffeted around at the mercy of events beyond their control (and one can argue that Hawke is one such) others shape the events around them. But this does not reduce them to mere plot devices.
Guest_darkisis357_*
On a differnt note, I've seen people saying that the song "Demons" by Imagine Dragons reminds them of Anders, which I completely agree, but I also think "Afraid" by The Neighborhood is appropriate.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=LrWwtU7iyl0
Guest_darkisis357_*
The absolutely best Anders-related video I've ever seen is this one:
That. Was. Awesome.
Yeah, I know. I've been away from DA for a while, away from Hawke, Anders and Co, but I can rewatch this vid again and again. It has...certain something.
Guest_darkisis357_*
I don't have any issues with DAA-DA2 Anders, at all. Heck, this man speaks about Templars and justice 10 minutes after you recruit him! DA2 Anders still has enough of his sense of humor - it's all over his banters and companion dialogues. He always took the Magic serious (DAA, banters with Sigurn). He always hated circles and templars. Now add Justice and his ideas.
I completely agree with this. I played the games backwards, but the only "real" difference I saw between DAA Anders and DA2 Anders was the maturity level, which makes sense when you take into perspective that he went through all the issues of DAA and joined with Justice, with all the havoc that entailed. I liked him less and was glad he wasn't an LI in DAA, becuase I wouldn't have picked him despite my DA2 love for him. I found him quite humorous and charming in DA2, but I do like my humor dark.
My favorite battle cry of his is, "Do you want to see what's under these robes?!?" Everytime I hear it, I can't help but answer, "yes, yes I do."
The absolutely best Anders-related video I've ever seen is this one:
Thank you for this. I cried...
Definitely going to treasure this for later watches
Guest_darkisis357_*
Meant to share this here; it was brought up in the confessions thread 
http://mythical-whim...iiide-442460703
Meant to share this here; it was brought up in the confessions thread
HAHA I'm gonna use that in future mage-templar debates here on BSN! 
So I've got a question...I've never actually done a rivalmance with Anders. In fact, I've never been able to bring myself to rival him non-romance either. =X Is the rivalmance worth another playthrough? I don't like watching videos.
So...for anyone who has done it, what is the Anders rivalmance like without being too spoilery? Will I die inside if I do it?
So I've got a question...I've never actually done a rivalmance with Anders. In fact, I've never been able to bring myself to rival him non-romance either. =X Is the rivalmance worth another playthrough? I don't like watching videos.
So...for anyone who has done it, what is the Anders rivalmance like without being too spoilery? Will I die inside if I do it?
I think you will die inside, like I did. Hawke is a dick in that romance.
@LostInReverie19
If you ever decide to do it, PLEASE, do not side with Templars.
(You asked for no spoilers, so I'm not giving any further comments.)
So I've got a question...I've never actually done a rivalmance with Anders. In fact, I've never been able to bring myself to rival him non-romance either. =X Is the rivalmance worth another playthrough? I don't like watching videos.
So...for anyone who has done it, what is the Anders rivalmance like without being too spoilery? Will I die inside if I do it?
It depends on what you want out of the rivalmance. I hate the Anders rivalmance specifically because it's the most dehumanizing and abusive relationship in the entire game. You don't get a rivalmance with Anders just by opposing his cause. In order to get the Questioning Beliefs romance-trigger, you have to call him a monster/abomination, tell him he's wrong at every turn (even in cases where he is demonstrably NOT wrong, like with Alrik) and the subsequent interactions are flat out horrifying in how Hawke treats him. I can't go into much more detail without spoiling you but it's awful and twists the love and forgiveness of the friendmance into Hawke being a gaslighting sack of crap.
For what it's worth, it reminded me starkly of the abusive relationships I've witnessed in the way that the abuser, (Hawke in this scenario) wittingly or not, reels in a victim (Anders) and plays on all their insecurities to force them to think the abuser is their only chance at companionship and happiness, no matter how miserable it makes them. You never physically abuse Anders in-game but you do convince him that he's completely insane and utterly worthless as a human being. I don't understand where people get this "you'll make Anders a better person!" rhetoric from, when he's so unhappy and broken by the end of the romance. If that's what it takes to make a man "a better person" than I'll happily live as an enabler.
So no, I don't personally think the rivalmance is worth it.
On the topic of videos, I really liked whomever did "Heavy in Your Arm" with it but YouTube yanked it. Does anyone know who made that one? I can't even tell the person it was great because I don't know their name/handle. :/ So very sad.
So I've got a question...I've never actually done a rivalmance with Anders. In fact, I've never been able to bring myself to rival him non-romance either. =X Is the rivalmance worth another playthrough? I don't like watching videos.
So...for anyone who has done it, what is the Anders rivalmance like without being too spoilery? Will I die inside if I do it?
If you choose the diplomatic/snarky options instead of the aggressive ones Hawke can easily be seen as someone who supports the circle changing but not as radically as completely overthrowing the Chantry.
If you pick the aggressive options yes your Hawke is going to be a abrasive jerkoff. But that's aggressive Hawke in a nutshell towards everyone.
So basically if you want to do the rivalrymance while used to the friendship mance I'd recommend the Diplo Hawke version.
I much prefer the rivalrymance myself. And Anders is easy enough to max out that I usually have him maxed by the time I go to Betrand to go to the deep roads.
Don't go expecting a happy ending though. You're not getting one.
So I've got a question...I've never actually done a rivalmance with Anders. In fact, I've never been able to bring myself to rival him non-romance either. =X Is the rivalmance worth another playthrough? I don't like watching videos.
So...for anyone who has done it, what is the Anders rivalmance like without being too spoilery? Will I die inside if I do it?
The time I made a Hawke who romanced him, I started out with rivalry. I was going to go rivalry all the way but some of the choices to do so were too hard to follow through with. At some point he says something like "I swear, Hawke; I'll make you see if it's the last thing I do." or something like that. So I figured I'd let it go that route - she did have a mage sister in the Gallows after all and seeing Ella was just the punch to the gut that she needed. At first it was easy to rival him without being too douchey but it became more difficult over time. As decisions that I couldn't make in good conscious started coming around, Hawke started tilting away from rivalry. During Act 2 mainly. Even though she didn't always agree with his politics, she wasn't a prig either. It took all of that act to reverse course, as you might say. But it seemed all the more rewarding to see him lighten up a bit as Hawke came around. She still sometimes checked his zeal and was disappointed with what he did to the Chantry, but I couldn't side with the templars. Hawke spared him and they did their best to help the mages and left Kirkwall in Isabela's ship.
Playing a rivalry that was best for me. I just couldn't do it all the way. It does seem like Hawke gets more and more heartless over time. Or maybe it just seems that way as he seems to take it harder as time passes. I've seen videos of a fully rivalmanced Anders and there are a few differences I couldn't recall that made me glad I didn't go all the way down that path with him.
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