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[SurelyForth]

snarkycleric wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
So I just got the banter between Isabela where Anders talks about how selfish he used to be and that his response to Justice's query about why he didn't do more to help mages kept him up at night.

...so is that why he's running the free clinic? I kind of wondered if the clinic was his way of atoning for something - past or future.

I think it's a combination of things. It's a way to earn a bit of coin (since I imagine that he gets some money from it) and I'm sure he knows that his services would be valued in other ways. But there's also an element of atonement, although from his ambient dialogue he genuinely wants to help them. I don't think his being a healer is an accident- he's a compassionate person who doesn't like to see others suffer. Even if he had other plans once he landed in Kirkwall, ones that would be even more low profile, he was probably just that moved to help the suffering.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 mars 2011 - 07:04 .

[leggywillow]

You know what I just realized?  To add insult to injury, one of the main components of Anders's bomb was crystallized manure and urine.

It was a poop bomb.

[Mr.House]

leggywillow wrote...

You know what I just realized?  To add insult to injury, one of the main components of Anders's bomb was crystallized manure and urine.

It was a poop bomb.

Poor Elthina

[panamakira]

LOL poop bomb. It's funny when you go gather the materials and he's trying to collect it he's like, "I don't know if I want to grab that....."

[SurelyForth]

leggywillow wrote...

You know what I just realized?  To add insult to injury, one of the main components of Anders's bomb was crystallized manure and urine.

It was a poop bomb.

LOL Now I know the look on Hawke's face wasn't disgust at what he'd done, but how it smelled!

@panamakira I actually had a thought during that part of his quest something along the lines of "Wouldn't it be fun if his entire plan was abandoned because he didn't want to get **** on his fingers?" 

Anders: You're wearing gloves...would you mind getting that for me?
Hawke: Expensive gloves. And no!
Anders: Oh. Varric?
Varric: Not even. My dignity, see.
Anders: -
Aveline: No.
Anders: Well, fine. Let's go. This was a stupid idea anyway. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 mars 2011 - 07:19 .

[Tealsie]

leggywillow wrote...

You know what I just realized?  To add insult to injury, one of the main components of Anders's bomb was crystallized manure and urine.

It was a poop bomb.

Y'know, I had completely forgotten about the ingredients when the scene actually happened.
I'll never be able to take that scene seriously. Ever again.

...sorry if this has already been asked, but how many people chopped Anders for that decision? Boy pissed me off with the whole "if I die my name will live on!" crap.  and also how throughout the game he disapproved of other people doing drastic things "for change". And then he up and does the most drastic thing of all. And isn't sorry.

[BlastedLands]

Tealsie wrote...
And isn't sorry.

eh, i don't think that's true.

[Heldenbrand]

In my opinion, or perhaps more due to my particular playthru, Anders was not a sympathetic figure. I can understand that some folk here see him as a romantic figure as a mage trying to fight for his beliefs. But in the end he committed what amounted to a terrorist act, blowing up a religious building where innocents remained. That was not justice, it was worse than what many blood mages did through the course of the game. Now because of his actions, countless lives will be lost throughout the world.

Remember, the Circles were created for a very good reason - power corrupts and mages have a lot of power. The Tevinters, still primarily ruled by magisters, is a place where slavery and corruption is deeply entrenched. Even the Dalish have told that in their open society where mages are honored leaders that they have plenty that succumb to demons. Kirkwall was the example of the extreme, where an already dangerous zealot was pushed to insanity by a relic and even a good-hearted mage became an abomination in response. In Ferelden we had a Circle that was nearly entirely overrun with power hungry mages rather than crushed into submission by the Templar order.

Sure, some of the mages might yearn for freedom but I see far more cases of mages with freedom causing destruction rather than making things better. Take for instance Grace; risked my life to save her by lying to the Templars so she could escape. Later on, she returns and kidnaps Carver, while trying to kill everyone around. A mage driven mad by his loss of his wife murders countless young women including your mother to bring her back.

The only mage that I found truly responsible, caring and genuine in her behavior was Wynne. A woman who toed the line with the Circle, who worked with the Templar rather than against them and bound herself to a spirit of the Fade without losing herself to it like Anders did. She worked for a better life for the mages not by violence, but by non-violent resistance. Regular people already feared mages, now with an open rebellion I imagine they will be terrified.

Anders was given a second chance through the Grey Wardens, now he has broken their trust and neutrality in his actions. He abandoned his duty to them for matters that went beyond the Darkspawn and the Blights. He betrayed everyone to force them into a war from which there will be no winners. If the Mages win, the Tevinter Imperium spreads throughout the world. If the Templars win, the oppression the mages faced before will pale in comparison. In the meantime, thousands will die, just by being caught in the crossfire.

In my opinion, Anders was the villain of this story.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Tealsie wrote...
Boy pissed me off with the whole "if I die my name will live on!" crap.  and also how throughout the game he disapproved of other people doing drastic things "for change". And then he up and does the most drastic thing of all. And isn't sorry.

That's not quite true.  He disapproved of mages turning to blood magic and demons because they became a danger to themselves and everyone else around them...though even he realized that they did so out of desperation.  I do think it's funny that if you play as a blood mage (which I did), no one calls you out on it.  Presumably Hawke is sensible enough not to consort with demons or something.  

[leggywillow]

Tealsie wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

You know what I just realized?  To add insult to injury, one of the main components of Anders's bomb was crystallized manure and urine.

It was a poop bomb.

Y'know, I had completely forgotten about the ingredients when the scene actually happened.
I'll never be able to take that scene seriously. Ever again.

::bows::  You're welcome; it's what I do.

[Tealsie]

Haerja wrote...

Tealsie wrote...
And isn't sorry.

eh, i don't think that's true.

Oops. No, he was sorry.   
More  that it 'had to happen' at all, it seemed. But for me he acted like it was justified, that there was "no other way", even when I was trying to find a happy medium with both sides.  He claimed it wasn't possible. I wonder if that was more justice speaking than Anders...

[Lady Jess]

Which response is the gentle "lets be friends" response when Anders gets all flirty after his initial quest with Karl? Cuz I don't like the flat out "no" conversation at ALL>

[EscherEnigma]

But there really *wasn't* a happy medium. The "compromise" solution (the Grand Cleric) was siding with the Templars at pretty much every step, refused to ever step in. If you recall, the condition of the mages in Act III was that they were pretty much being confined to their cells (Sorry, "rooms"), not allowed any freedom, and a ghastly number were regularly being made tranquil simply for not agreeing with Meridith.

And that's what you see throughout the story. All along the Templars are squeezing down harder and harder, and there's nothing you can do for them. The mediator, the one keeping things "civil" wasn't fixing anything and refused to do anything. Meridith was trying to get the right of anullment even before Ander's pulled his disaster out of the hat, and it really didn't look like Elthina was going to stop her. Slow her down? Maybe. But whether you get to an anullment by killing everyone in a blood bath or by whittling them down over another few years through the rite of tranquillity, Meridith wasn't going to stop until there were no mages left...

So yeah. If Anders hadn't pushing things to the brink then after the next time skip there wouldn't have been any mages left anyway. All Anders did was push things far enough, soon enough, that it wasn't too late.

[SurelyForth]

Heldenbrand wrote...

In my opinion, or perhaps more due to my particular playthru, Anders was not a sympathetic figure. I can understand that some folk here see him as a romantic figure as a mage trying to fight for his beliefs. But in the end he committed what amounted to a terrorist act, blowing up a religious building where innocents remained. That was not justice, it was worse than what many blood mages did through the course of the game. Now because of his actions, countless lives will be lost throughout the world.

Remember, the Circles were created for a very good reason - power corrupts and mages have a lot of power. The Tevinters, still primarily ruled by magisters, is a place where slavery and corruption is deeply entrenched. Even the Dalish have told that in their open society where mages are honored leaders that they have plenty that succumb to demons. Kirkwall was the example of the extreme, where an already dangerous zealot was pushed to insanity by a relic and even a good-hearted mage became an abomination in response. In Ferelden we had a Circle that was nearly entirely overrun with power hungry mages rather than crushed into submission by the Templar order.

Sure, some of the mages might yearn for freedom but I see far more cases of mages with freedom causing destruction rather than making things better. Take for instance Grace; risked my life to save her by lying to the Templars so she could escape. Later on, she returns and kidnaps Carver, while trying to kill everyone around. A mage driven mad by his loss of his wife murders countless young women including your mother to bring her back.

The only mage that I found truly responsible, caring and genuine in her behavior was Wynne. A woman who toed the line with the Circle, who worked with the Templar rather than against them and bound herself to a spirit of the Fade without losing herself to it like Anders did. She worked for a better life for the mages not by violence, but by non-violent resistance. Regular people already feared mages, now with an open rebellion I imagine they will be terrified.

Anders was given a second chance through the Grey Wardens, now he has broken their trust and neutrality in his actions. He abandoned his duty to them for matters that went beyond the Darkspawn and the Blights. He betrayed everyone to force them into a war from which there will be no winners. If the Mages win, the Tevinter Imperium spreads throughout the world. If the Templars win, the oppression the mages faced before will pale in comparison. In the meantime, thousands will die, just by being caught in the crossfire.

In my opinion, Anders was the villain of this story.

I think that's a fair interpretation. However, what we see is a result of long-term subjugation. What Grace did was terrible, but it was borne out of Meredith's increasing militance. The entire game is about how the more the  templars crush, the more the mages act out in desperate and dangerous ways. You would think that SOMEONE would see how this works. For all their acknowledging that mages are more easily tempted by demons, no one thinks that allowing them some freedoms, simple ones like access to their families or a commune rather than a prison, would work far better than violence or further restrictions.

[SurelyForth]

Lady Jess wrote...

Which response is the gentle "lets be friends" response when Anders gets all flirty after his initial quest with Karl? Cuz I don't like the flat out "no" conversation at ALL>

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

[maselphie]

@Heldenbrand: Well said. It's easy to forgive someone we love, which is why some parents cover up their children's murders and such. But sometimes, they need to take responsibility. Of course, like others have said, whether or not he's the villain to the world is only for time to tell. For THIS game, he was the reason the Anullment was called, the reason a war started, the reason the mages resorted to blood magic -- those are bad things. The only way he would ever be revered as a good guy is if the whole world turns Tevinter, which I doubt will happen. If the world just stops fighting and everything is rainbows and no one is every oppressed again, it won't be because one faction killed more of the other faction. It will be some sort of diplomatic or magical feat that could have been found without war. Probably.

[Darkannex]

Helden - you don't find any sympathy at all? Your post is very well thought out, but holding Wynne up as a paragon might not win you many points. She could be incredibly waspish. She gave her child up because of the Circle. How many other mothers had to lose their children? How is that justifiable?

She's also very much a nagger. In DAO it was 'duty duty duty, how DARE you consort with that dirty elf!' (paraphrashing, but her clear disapproval of Zevran was extreme. Even her disapproval of Romancing Alistair. She clearly was very influenced by the Circle in thinking that one does not have the right to have their own life. There is only duty.

It is true that she did very noble things, but then...so did Anders. He fought for the Grey Wardens, and the Blight is done...what more need he do? You know going into the game that Anders runs, and does not take confinement well. Besides...the Wardens made him give up Sir Pounce-A-Lot. That may seem trivial...but to Anders it was more proof that his life was not his own.

You can speak of the greater good as much as you like, but no..mages were NOT well treated in the Circle. They were not allowed to love, or marry, or deal with anyone outside of themselves and Templars. They were never allowed away from the circle except in rare cases. They were maligned and treated like lepers.

Understand also that this was not Justice- this was Vengeance. Anders himself did not do this. He opened himself up to Justice (a friend) to prevent him fading away. How was he to know that his justified anger at how he and mages were treated would warp Justice into Vengeance and doom them both? It is a tragedy no matter how you look at it.

No, I do not condone what happened, but understand that since this is not reality, there is such a thing as 'the devil made me do it'. He is NOT Anders. He is Vengeance.

[Sable Rhapsody]

maselphie wrote...

Of course, like others have said, whether or not he's the villain to the world is only for time to tell. For THIS game, he was the reason the Anullment was called, the reason a war started, the reason the mages resorted to blood magic -- those are bad things.

The mages were turning to desperate means from Meredith's squeeze long before Anders concocted his insane plan.

Besides, he was right about Kirkwall.  In Kirkwall, there was no compromise to be had.  Things had deteriorated too far.  Meredith was crazy, Orsino was useless, Elthina was waffling, and all the while, mages and templars alike were dying.  However, Anders also put the kibosh on any attempt at peace elsewhere in Thedas, where the situation might have been salvageable.

[maselphie]

True. This is a VERY gray area. We'll likely never come to agreement about what he did was a good or bad thing. In the most basest of terms, though: it was bad. Murder, violence ... they're bad. Can bad things ever be done for the greater good? Yes.

[Heldenbrand]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think that's a fair interpretation. However, what we see is a result of long-term subjugation. What Grace did was terrible, but it was borne out of Meredith's increasing militance. The entire game is about how the more the  templars crush, the more the mages act out in desperate and dangerous ways. You would think that SOMEONE would see how this works. For all their acknowledging that mages are more easily tempted by demons, no one thinks that allowing them some freedoms, simple ones like access to their families or a commune rather than a prison, would work far better than violence or further restrictions.

The reason that they are restricted from seeing their families are, well, for the same reason the Jedi were.  Not to cross genres here but let me make the point:

That emotional connection and family tie is exactly what is dangerous.  Say a family member were to get in trouble with the law, the mage might be tempted to use their power to help them.  What if a family member needed a little extra coin?  What's the harm in just helping them out a little with your magic?  Or how about you have a child and that child is teased in school for being the offspring of a mage?  It'd make you angry right?

They don't isolate the mages from their families to be vindictive, but because emotions are exactly what demons prey upon and the more that the mages can be tempered through their wild youth, the more likely they will be to avoid the pitfalls.  Greed isn't important if you aren't wandering the city looking to buy things or have excess luxuries.  Pride isn't important if you aren't going to rise above your station of mage.  The rules of the Chantry aren't unlike what it was to be a Jedi in the Star Wars universe.  There is a sense of self-sacrifice that must come with the power you've been given and if you can't handle that responsibility, then it's to the Tranquil with you.

Yes, Meredith was bad and certainly did not help.  But Anders could have taken this case to other authorities within the Chantry, such as Leliana to make his case as to why the situation is spiraling out of control.  Instead he acted upon his emotions, upon his anger and hatred for the Templars.  He killed innocent people and forced the world into a war that may not have even been necessary.  Meredith was a zealot in the style of Cullen from Origins, made far worse by the artifact.. Anders doesn't have an excuse.  As he professed, it was not Justice that forced him to blow up the Chantry, it was his decision.  That is why I view him as the true villain in this case.

[Darkannex]

Helden - your logic falls apart on the fact that you can substitute ANY thing there.
A rich person can use their family name and influence to help that family member in trouble out.
They could even hire a hit man to take care of things.
Someone exceptionally gifted in fighting could just go and kill someone that made them angry. Heck - even your CHAMPION can do such senseless things. Let's lock up all warriors, right?

You cannot condemn as a whole an entire race/group of people just because SOME in that group do badly. And that Jedi thing worked out real well didn't it? They lived happily ever after.

...oh wait. No. Because they denied someone the ability to be natural, it blew up in their faces and he went bonkers.

But even he got redeemed in the end. He was a glowy good spirit at the rolling credits.

My point is essentially that obviously the circle doesn't work. Obviously the Tevinter way doesn't work. Why can't something else happen? Why only these two extremes? 

Modifié par Darkannex, 13 mars 2011 - 08:17 .

[Lady Jess]

SurelyForth wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Which response is the gentle "lets be friends" response when Anders gets all flirty after his initial quest with Karl? Cuz I don't like the flat out "no" conversation at ALL>

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

Ohh that was awesome! Thank you my darlin! Hmmm did that shut off the romance? Cuz Katie is supposed to go for Fenris...rofl

But he keeps lookin at me....

[leggywillow]

I think I heard something else adorable.  When Hawke fell in battle, I swear I heard Anders say "NO! Please, don't be dead!"

I may be wrong, since enemies love to shout things and Anders's voice can get kinda mixed up with them.  I haven't been able to get it again.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Demons feed off of negative emotions.  Off of fear, greed, hate, anger.  What's the quickest way to push someone to that point?  Imprison them in a former slave hold, deny them light and love and freedom, and treat them like a walking curse.

Anders has feelings beyond his attitude toward the templars.  His love for Hawke, his affection for his kitty and some of his other party members, his compassion for refugees, etc.  Those positive emotions aren't what drive him to do what he does.  It's his anger at the Circle and its templars that transforms Justice into a demon of Vengeance, justified anger at the imprisonment of his fellow mages.

You don't combat negative emotion with the lack of emotion.  Look at how well that turned out for the Jedi in Star Wars.  You combat it with joy, love, hope.  And the conditions of mages in Kirkwall rob them of all the tools they could use to fight the demons.

[Kim Shepard]

MICHELLE7 wrote...

Anyone know if Justice still disapproves of the relationship if you completely support him in taking vengence. I talked Anders down when he was about to kill the mage girl...just wondered if you didn't do that if Justice might approve of the relationship.

Of course putting my own spin on it...if Justice is getting used to emotions(which is where vengence comes into play anyway) is it possible that the one Justice is referring to being distracted is himself and not Anders. I mean isn't he feeling what Anders is feeling if they are sharing...that would be new to him and a little scary and confusing. Just a thought...back to the game.

I'd like to believe this. Justice does have a conversation in Awakening with the Warden about trying to understand emotion - unfortunately, I don't remember his exact words, but it was a really sweet talk. My FemHawke seems like the type of person Justice would like, if only as an ally to the cause. She started off a bit like Anders, not wanting to get too much involved in the conflict because it would put herself (and more importantly, her family) in a lot of danger, but she would help a mage in trouble who crossed paths with her. By the end of the game, she's probably even more dedicated to this revolution than Anders.

leggywillow wrote...

You know what I just realized?  To add insult to injury, one of the main components of Anders's bomb was crystallized manure and urine.

It was a poop bomb.

And so my FemHawke's dedication is tested. o_o

Kaya: I'm not touching that.
Justice: *assumes direct control* It is for the cause!
Kaya: ...Really?
Justice: Yes.
Kaya: *picks it up* I'm not even going to ask.

SurelyForth wrote...

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

When does this happen? It sounds awesome.