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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#576
Heldenbrand

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Darkannex wrote...

Helden - your logic falls apart on the fact that you can substitute ANY thing there.
A rich person can use their family name and influence to help that family member in trouble out.
They could even hire a hit man to take care of things.
Someone exceptionally gifted in fighting could just go and kill someone that made them angry. Heck - even your CHAMPION can do such senseless things. Let's lock up all warriors, right?

You cannot condemn as a whole an entire race/group of people just because SOME in that group do badly. And that Jedi thing worked out real well didn't it? They lived happily ever after.

...oh wait. No. Because they denied someone the ability to be natural, it blew up in their faces and he went bonkers.

But even he got redeemed in the end. He was a glowy good spirit at the rolling credits.

My point is essentially that obviously the circle doesn't work. Obviously the Tevinter way doesn't work. Why can't something else happen? Why only these two extremes? 


I wouldn't say that my logic falls apart.  A mage is no more prone than any other person in power or without power would be.  The danger comes from their ability to be possessed by demons; that is why they are treated differently.  Whereas an average warrior can butcher an entire family and never become an abomination, a mage could kick a puppy and suddenly turn into a walking beacon of death and destruction. 

And essentially, if you want to go back to my Jedi example, the reason it all fell apart was because the boy let his emotions get in the way.  Because he wanted to protect the woman he loved, he went down a very dark path.  What he did caused horrors throughout the galaxy.  It wasn't because the Order was 'repressing' him, it was because he violated the tenants that keep them along the proper path.  He gave in to rage when his mother was killed, pride when he was not given the rank he felt he deserved and fear when his woman was endangered.  It wasn't because he wasn't allowed to be human, it was because he was "human" when he was in fact far more powerful than the average man. 

As I said before, the addage is, with great power comes great responsibility.  Responsibility doesn't mean just doing the right thing, it often means sacrificing things that you want and love for the better of whole.  Anders forgot that responsibility; that while the subjugation of mages isn't the perfect way to go about it, absolute liberation is no better.  

#577
Lady Jess

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Kim Shepard wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

When does this happen? It sounds awesome.


After you do his Karl quest, and get the "talk to Anders" quest in your log.

#578
Sable Rhapsody

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Somehow I don't think the Jedi take their younglings and lock them up in cages. I don't remember Yoda turning them Tranquil for minor offenses or accusing everyone who looked at him funny of turning to the dark side.

The Jedi analogy doesn't work because the Jedi govern themselves. The mages don't. And the way mages are treated in Kirkwall makes them MORE prone to abomination, not less. It teaches them fear, loathing, desperation, hate--exactly the things that demons prey upon.

#579
Kim Shepard

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Lady Jess wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

When does this happen? It sounds awesome.


After you do his Karl quest, and get the "talk to Anders" quest in your log.

Wow, I don't even remember that line. Probably because the Hawke I'm playing now wants to romance him.

#580
EscherEnigma

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... Except that it's never been shown as simple as "kick a puppy, become an abomination". Every case where we've seen someone become an abomination was *much* more extreme. Even Connor, in DA:O was out of desperation to save his father.

I mean, face it. Every case we know of where a young mage received training (from the Circle or from an apostate) they got through just fine. Do they need help and training? Yes. But it doesn't have to come at the cost of having a life, as we see with every Dalish Keeper there is, mage!Hawke and Bethany, Morrigan and even, to an extent, Anders himself (wasn't taken to the circle until he was 12, much later then it seems is normal).

What is needed is training. The isolation solution just doesn't seem to work (how many circles have we seen in the game? How many failed rather drastically?)

#581
Lady Jess

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Kim Shepard wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

When does this happen? It sounds awesome.


After you do his Karl quest, and get the "talk to Anders" quest in your log.

Wow, I don't even remember that line. Probably because the Hawke I'm playing now wants to romance him.


It's taking every ounce of control I have NOT to romance him..<3

#582
Heldenbrand

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Somehow I don't think the Jedi take their younglings and lock them up in cages. I don't remember Yoda turning them Tranquil for minor offenses or accusing everyone who looked at him funny of turning to the dark side.

The Jedi analogy doesn't work because the Jedi govern themselves. The mages don't. And the way mages are treated in Kirkwall makes them MORE prone to abomination, not less. It teaches them fear, loathing, desperation, hate--exactly the things that demons prey upon.


And you're right, which is why I agree that the current way isn't the best; but neither is absolute liberation.  Even if you would not compare the treatment of mages to that of Jedi, they still have the same goals.  To be suspended from the temptations of their own hearts for the better of the whole.  It is the very things that we regular people would take for granted that they are denied, because if I were to lust for my best friend's wife it would be a mere fantasy, but to a mage it could be a reality if only he listened to that nice looking Desire demon.  

Even through the quest to save Fenyriel (I can't recall the spelling) that while within the Fade even your most loyal companions or lovers could fall to the temptation of the demons.  Imagine if that voice is constantly whispering to you even in your waking hours, where even a momentary stumble could end in disaster.  

Believe me, I'm not saying Anders is a psychopath that was completely undeserving of understanding.  But he's certainly not the valiant white knight that many seem to be considering him.  We come from a society that values freedom and liberty, but we don't have the same risks that come with mages.  It's hard to understand the Templar perspective and the authority is always disliked by youthful gamers, but sometimes that authority is in place for a very good reason.

#583
Kim Shepard

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Lady Jess wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

When does this happen? It sounds awesome.


After you do his Karl quest, and get the "talk to Anders" quest in your log.

Wow, I don't even remember that line. Probably because the Hawke I'm playing now wants to romance him.


It's taking every ounce of control I have NOT to romance him..<3

I'll have to try that out on my next playthrough with Fenris' Hawke. Or try it out now and reload really fast.

#584
leggywillow

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Lady Jess wrote...

Kim Shepard wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There is none. You can avoid his flirting by taking the joking response when he talks about Justice. You only get 5 rival points that way (and he glows!).

When does this happen? It sounds awesome.


After you do his Karl quest, and get the "talk to Anders" quest in your log.


Every time Anders talks about Karl, I just think about CCCAAAAARRRLLLLL

#585
Sable Rhapsody

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Heldenbrand wrote...

And you're right, which is why I agree that the current way isn't the best; but neither is absolute liberation.  Even if you would not compare the treatment of mages to that of Jedi, they still have the same goals.  To be suspended from the temptations of their own hearts for the better of the whole.  It is the very things that we regular people would take for granted that they are denied, because if I were to lust for my best friend's wife it would be a mere fantasy, but to a mage it could be a reality if only he listened to that nice looking Desire demon. 


Oh, I'm not saying Anders is some sort of white knight.  I think he's a tormented, well-intentioned, and unfortunately for me ADORABLE crazy person.  

What I'm saying is that the lack of emotion is not proof against demons, unless you go to the extreme of making every mage Tranquil.  The mages who keep a handle on themselves, apostate or Circle mage alike, are the ones with friends, hope, purpose, and support.  Aneirin's an apostate, and he's probably the most well-adjusted mage in the entire game series.  

#586
leggywillow

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Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Oh, I'm not saying Anders is some sort of white knight.  I think he's a tormented, well-intentioned, and unfortunately for me ADORABLE crazy person. 


This is basically the heart of the matter for me.  If he wasn't so damn adorable, and if he hadn't already stolen my heart in Awakening, then I'd be much more open to murder-knifing him.  It's like Loghain, if Loghain had been in your party the entire time and you could have romanced him (...and if he was cuter, but we're going to pretend I'm not that shallow, 'kay?).

#587
LobselVith8

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The History of the Circle codex references that mages were imprisoned present day because of a nonviolent protest held in a cathedral in Orlais centuries ago. I don't personally think that's a valid reason to deny people their basic rights and throw them into prison indefinitely. I admire that Anders wanted to stop the slavey of his people, and accomplished it when the Circles broke free from the Chantry. I admits it's the inception of a revolution, but they're currently freed from Chantry and templar oppression because of Anders. Given their success against the Qunari during the New Exalted Marches, I think they can pull it off if the Chantry tries anything. Varric indicated in the beginning that the Chantry was in a bad way, so that might not even be an issue if they're greatly weakened.

#588
Kim Shepard

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I call Anders a well-intentioned extremist. He fits right in with my crazy group of favorites.

Many of my Hawkes and Wardens, especially the mages, can understand why he did what he did, and even agree with it. Then there are some, like my evil blood mage Warden, who would have a "good luck, but I'm staying out of this" attitude. If he was in DA2, the only way he would ever join a revolution is if his cousin (who is a revolutionary himself) dragged him into it. There are things that he doesn't like about the Circle, mainly the fact that he has to share a room, and he does resent the templars, but he doesn't mind being isolated from the rest of the world for the most part. Sure, he would like to live with his cousins, but he wouldn't fight for it. Justice would be annoyed by such sloth, I think. I'm sure even he would have thought differently if the Circle he stayed in was more like a prison and less like a live-in school though.

#589
Heldenbrand

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That's what makes him such a compelling character. It was easier to hate Loghain in Origins, in the case of Anders its far more difficult as you know him on a personal level. It isn't cut and dry here, there are points to be made on both sides. Even feeling how I feel I still tend to favor the mages for quests and decisions. Perhaps Bioware could have done a little more in making me feel as if the Templars could be justified. Calling into question more of Orsins actions as well or hinting that perhaps he was a blood mage. Not to mention I think there is a natural inclination to dislike the Templars from a psychological angle.

Mages wearing only cloth seem more vulnerable, wielding what amounts to sticks against swords. Templars often have helmets on obscuring their faces and making them feel less than human. It's easier to see them as the bad guys whereas the mages just appear to be more vulnerable. Damn you designers, stop playing with my brain!

#590
maselphie

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All extremists are "well-intentioned." For themselves.

#591
SurelyForth

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Heldenbrand wrote...

That's what makes him such a compelling character. It was easier to hate Loghain in Origins, in the case of Anders its far more difficult as you know him on a personal level. It isn't cut and dry here, there are points to be made on both sides. Even feeling how I feel I still tend to favor the mages for quests and decisions. Perhaps Bioware could have done a little more in making me feel as if the Templars could be justified. Calling into question more of Orsins actions as well or hinting that perhaps he was a blood mage. Not to mention I think there is a natural inclination to dislike the Templars from a psychological angle.

Mages wearing only cloth seem more vulnerable, wielding what amounts to sticks against swords. Templars often have helmets on obscuring their faces and making them feel less than human. It's easier to see them as the bad guys whereas the mages just appear to be more vulnerable. Damn you designers, stop playing with my brain!


I thought that the templars you work with the most, Emeric, Thrask and Cullen did a good job of balancing things on the templar end. Even Anders will admit that some templars can be good and he's fine with working with them for the right end. 

#592
Kim Shepard

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maselphie wrote...

All extremists are "well-intentioned." For themselves.

Well, I would consider some of my Wardens/Shepards to be extremists who don't have good intentions... Even if he goes about it the wrong way, Anders is still trying to free the mages and end oppression. On the other hand, some of my own characters do what they do for power without caring about anyone or group's well-being. They're still really extreme about it though.

#593
pagerunner

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re: the poop bomb jokes:

Yes, well. Think of it as fertilizer. We all should have seen that coming as soon as he opened his mouth.... http://en.wikipedia....b#Terrorist_use

Modifié par pagerunner, 13 mars 2011 - 09:21 .


#594
Heldenbrand

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SurelyForth wrote...

I thought that the templars you work with the most, Emeric, Thrask and Cullen did a good job of balancing things on the templar end. Even Anders will admit that some templars can be good and he's fine with working with them for the right end. 


They do.  I think I was predisposed to disliking Cullen more based purely upon Origins and I think that we could have been aided a bit in seeing the Templar perspective by actually having one in my party.  As a mage main character, Anders and Merril we were an apostate crew.  Aveline was more concerned about the letter of the law, Fenris just hated mages and I personally didn't really care for Sebastian.

I wouldn't have objected to having someone like Alistair around as a sympathetic Templar that I worked with on a regular basis to help balance out the opinion of Anders.  Thrask was very interesting, he would have been pretty awesome to have in party.  Oh well!  It was interesting anyway, next time around instead of playing an apostate myself I might give a rogue a try.  Maybe that will give me another view of it.  ;)

#595
leggywillow

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pagerunner wrote...

re: the poop bomb jokes:

Yes, well. Think of it as fertilizer. We all should have seen that coming as soon as he opened his mouth.... http://en.wikipedia....b#Terrorist_use


Oh don't ruin the fun!  :P  I'd rather just be silly and call it the "poop bomb".  It helps take away some of the sting of that scene.

Seriously, does anyone else now have a hard time doing Act 3?  I love Acts 1 and 2, but as soon as I start Act 3 my heart just sinks.  I hate seeing what happens to Anders.

#596
pagerunner

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leggywillow wrote...

pagerunner wrote...

re: the poop bomb jokes:

Yes, well. Think of it as fertilizer. We all should have seen that coming as soon as he opened his mouth.... http://en.wikipedia....b#Terrorist_use


Oh don't ruin the fun!  :P  I'd rather just be silly and call it the "poop bomb".  It helps take away some of the sting of that scene.

Seriously, does anyone else now have a hard time doing Act 3?  I love Acts 1 and 2, but as soon as I start Act 3 my heart just sinks.  I hate seeing what happens to Anders.



Oh, I didn't mean to ruin the fun... I only meant I started hitting myself on the head later once I thought it through.   ;) It's pretty blatant what he's up to when it comes right down to it, really.  

#597
Darkannex

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It really doesn't hold up well because any person has a seed of madness in them. Something that will break their control. An expert warrior might be an animal lover and turn into a mass murderer due to seeing a kitten kicked.

Actually, I see non mages as more of a risk. Because at least Mages KNOW that they are vulnerable. It's drilled into them day 1 that they are walking time bombs. But non mages? Nope. Not a hit of warning that they too have propensity for extreme and irrational violence.

you don't need a magic gift to be horribly dangerous. It's just an excuse people use to exclude others not like them.

I never said extreme liberation was an answer. But letting mages live a normal fulfilling life that doesn't make them servants in robes is definitely on my list of things they have a right for. The Dalish seem to do well with magic for the most part. And if even non-mages can be posessed (as DA2 showed) then we just need to shove everyone in a cage.

#598
leggywillow

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pagerunner wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

pagerunner wrote...

re: the poop bomb jokes:

Yes, well. Think of it as fertilizer. We all should have seen that coming as soon as he opened his mouth.... http://en.wikipedia....b#Terrorist_use


Oh don't ruin the fun!  :P  I'd rather just be silly and call it the "poop bomb".  It helps take away some of the sting of that scene.

Seriously, does anyone else now have a hard time doing Act 3?  I love Acts 1 and 2, but as soon as I start Act 3 my heart just sinks.  I hate seeing what happens to Anders.


Oh, I didn't mean to ruin the fun... I only meant I started hitting myself on the head later once I thought it through.   ;) It's pretty blatant what he's up to when it comes right down to it, really.


Plus he likes to play with his wording.  I believe he says "And... boom! Justice and I will be free."  <_<

I can imagine Hawke slapping him around the head later saying "YOU ACTUALLY USED A BOMB PUN ON ME?!"

#599
Kim Shepard

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leggywillow wrote...

Seriously, does anyone else now have a hard time doing Act 3?  I love Acts 1 and 2, but as soon as I start Act 3 my heart just sinks.  I hate seeing what happens to Anders.

Actually, I can't wait to play through it for myself. I just hope there's an option that allows my FemHawke to agree with him and support what he did, rather than contradict the character I planned out and disapprove no matter what. ): If my evil mage was allowed to threaten the Reverend Mother's life for a key in Origins, surely my well-intentioned extremist mage can at the very least have a "maybe it was the only way" option?

#600
aznsoisauce

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leggywillow wrote...
Plus he likes to play with his wording.  I believe he says "And... boom! Justice and I will be free."  <_<

I can imagine Hawke slapping him around the head later saying "YOU ACTUALLY USED A BOMB PUN ON ME?!"

Wow. That is just....wrong. :lol:

Edit: @Kim - That's how I ended up playing my rogue romancing Anders. Totally supportive but in what is probably an unhealthy and delusional relationship. I don't mean that like they aren't actually in love, just that they are both ****ing crazy. Crazy with good intentions, I suppose.

Modifié par aznsoisauce, 13 mars 2011 - 09:43 .