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[CrookedAsylum]

I support Anders with a basket of kittens.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Magaloo wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Well I didn't agree with Knight-Commander's Meredith's decision at the end....
But for the entirety of the game, the mages were so QUICK to resort to blood magic. They were so quick to throw their Circle training out the window and summon demons. I mean, even if you save that one girl Grace, she completely turns on you and becomes an abomination. And it was a psychopath mage that killed Hawke's mother....there were a few sour apples in the templar ranks, yes....but the mages were out.of.control in Kirkwall.

So...I guess my final belief is that the Circle IS needed.

Yes but we never saw that in Ferelden! I think it is just Kirkwall needing a strong circle or even mages not being allowed within 50 miles of that hellmouth of a town!  Even non mages get possessed there.  I am pro mage, no circle everywhere BUT around kirkwall I may be pro Qunari methods!

Well even in Ferelden you had Uldred, who completely obliterated an entire Circle Tower, with his blood magic.

I really can honestly say, that there is every reason in the world to fear mages.

[Ninche]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Now I am completely and utterly torn on whether a rivalry or friendship path is best to take to help him. I don't want to kill the mages, and I don't want to hurt the poor lad after all he's been through, but finally making him realise the mistake of playing host to J/V might be worth it. Then again, if he can't change it anyway, would it be better for him to accept it as on the Friendship path, instead of having another thing he can't change added to an already guilty conscience?

I kinda like the rivalmance so far.
He's trying so hard to convert me, and I'm just going, "Well, I hate your politics, but we have other things in common." Then he glares and snarls and gets all passionate about mages yet again. At one point, he asked me why everything I said made him want to wring my neck....an obvious rhetorical question.

The hard part is that I completely agree with his politics. I don't agree with the abomination thing, or the blowing up of the chantry, but I'm passionately pro-mage, and there just doesn't seem to be a happy medium between the two where I could encourage him to fight Justice while still agreeing with his cause. The one rivalmance I'm working on with him just makes me feel terrible, so it rarely gets played.
Oh well, maybe he and my canon Hawke can work on that aspect after they run away together.

Well I didn't agree with Knight-Commander's Meredith's decision at the end....
But for the entirety of the game, the mages were so QUICK to resort to blood magic. They were so quick to throw their Circle training out the window and summon demons. I mean, even if you save that one girl Grace, she completely turns on you and becomes an abomination. And it was a psychopath mage that killed Hawke's mother....there were a few sour apples in the templar ranks, yes....but the mages were out.of.control in Kirkwall.

So...I guess my final belief is that the Circle IS needed.

I think the portrayal of mages as horrible, violent and cowardly human beings was completely intentional in the story.

First of all if they had made them all innocent and tortured the choice at the end of the story would be obvious and nobody would be torn about it - look at the poor oppressed mages - they have done nothing wrong but are getting killed - let's help them! 

Secondly, I believe this is part of the whole point. No people are black and white and no group of people can be generalised according to common traits in any way - humans are way too complex for that. It's easy to defend the obviously helpless that hide no inner horrors of their own - but can you defend people who continuously resort to blood magic and demons and kill innocents? Can you believe still, after everything you have seen, that they are not ALL like this and that if things were different they would not ALL be forced to resort to such measures? After one of them kills your own mother can you STILL stand for their freedom? Personally, I believe in equality and freedom - mages should be allowed to be evil if they wish, even if 99% of them are, for the sake of the 1% who are just like everyone else - gentle and loving. Regardless of what the majority of them manifest as I believe there are many good and wonderful people among them and they deserve the right to live. Not simply exist in fear and shame.

[Sialater]

SurelyForth wrote...

I...think that Anders might be ruined for me now. I find the idea of him EVER siding with the templars for the Rite to be so profoundly hypocritical that I cannot even stand it.

I don't think it's that bad.

If the separation is encouraged, he's less GRR! Templars! As himself, right?  This fight is more Justice's than Anders'.  He avoided his oppression, remember?

However, perhaps like convincing Fenris that not all mages are terrible, convincing Anders that some of them ARE is actually justifiable.

I mean, let's face it, we meet some truly despicable mages in this game.

[SurelyForth]

Magaloo wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I...think that Anders might be ruined for me now. I find the idea of him EVER siding with the templars for the Rite to be so profoundly hypocritical that I cannot even stand it.

I agree if we just look at Anders from what we experiment in game.  I feel that what Jennifer has commented on through the boards changes that a bit.  The way she explained that if you rival romance Anders you can really make him feel like J/V is really manipulating him like a puppet really and it was a bad idea from the start that perverted his desire to free the mages.  In Awakening Anders really dont care for the plight of his fellow mage so I can understand how Justice is the one pushing through it.  in that case I can understand how he could be convinced to side with templar to fix what he has done while being in Anders mode. 

That said... all that does not really transpire during a regular playthrough so i understand your disgust at the idea of him siding against the mages.  Personally it is not something I desire to see. 

But it doesn't change the fact that, at his core, Anders is a compassionate person. Unless him siding with the templars is an indication that Hawke can twist him as much as Vengeance, then it is...wrong. You're not saving him from himself in that situation, you're forcing him into doing something that he should never want or be able to do otherwise. His hands planted the bomb, even if Justice was at the controls, and it is the bombing that lead to the Rite being called. Unless he is just completely shattered to the core of his being, he should recognize this and, as Anders, killing those that he condemned to death is a betrayal of pretty much everything he ever was.

@Sialater

If it was an attack on all the mages in Kirkwall, maybe. He will fight any that attack throughout the game. However, going into the Circle to kill mages in their prison is so beyond "sometimes the templars are right." It would be like him agreeing to aid in Tranquilizing every mage in the Circle. Those mages are not the problem, they are just the casualties of a broken system that he has been railing against his entire life.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 25 mars 2011 - 04:35 .

[Magaloo]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Magaloo wrote...

Yes but we never saw that in Ferelden! I think it is just Kirkwall needing a strong circle or even mages not being allowed within 50 miles of that hellmouth of a town!  Even non mages get possessed there.  I am pro mage, no circle everywhere BUT around kirkwall I may be pro Qunari methods!

I think the whacko magic in Kirkwall was the result of horrible mage treatment, wasn't it? Meredith was bat****, you had dudes like Alarik around every corner abusing the Rite of Tranquility - and the mages afterwards - and too many people turning blind eyes to it. Not to mention that if you harbored a mage you suffered who knows what.

The Templar order in Kirkwall was completely maniacal.

From what I understood (and I may be completely wrong on this...) There was trouble way before chap. 3 when the mages were really constrained to their quarters and so on.  There is blood mage galore before that and Orsino (the sneaky bastard) is already helping the lilly killer and bloodmages randomly jumping me in the streets. 

Also the hellmouth influences more than just the mage, raising the incidence of bats**** crazy templars too.  The one good thing I guess is that it has the opposite effect on Cullen. 

I am torn about this... Hawke romanced Anders as a mage, she wanted mage freedom, she was ready to jump with him all the way and embrace the revolution but Kirwall is just one long disturbing festival of bloodmages!

Modifié par Magaloo, 25 mars 2011 - 04:35 .

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

I mean, let's face it, we meet some truly despicable mages in this game.

Yes, Emile de Launcet was horrific.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Ninche wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Now I am completely and utterly torn on whether a rivalry or friendship path is best to take to help him. I don't want to kill the mages, and I don't want to hurt the poor lad after all he's been through, but finally making him realise the mistake of playing host to J/V might be worth it. Then again, if he can't change it anyway, would it be better for him to accept it as on the Friendship path, instead of having another thing he can't change added to an already guilty conscience?

I kinda like the rivalmance so far.
He's trying so hard to convert me, and I'm just going, "Well, I hate your politics, but we have other things in common." Then he glares and snarls and gets all passionate about mages yet again. At one point, he asked me why everything I said made him want to wring my neck....an obvious rhetorical question.

The hard part is that I completely agree with his politics. I don't agree with the abomination thing, or the blowing up of the chantry, but I'm passionately pro-mage, and there just doesn't seem to be a happy medium between the two where I could encourage him to fight Justice while still agreeing with his cause. The one rivalmance I'm working on with him just makes me feel terrible, so it rarely gets played.
Oh well, maybe he and my canon Hawke can work on that aspect after they run away together.

Well I didn't agree with Knight-Commander's Meredith's decision at the end....
But for the entirety of the game, the mages were so QUICK to resort to blood magic. They were so quick to throw their Circle training out the window and summon demons. I mean, even if you save that one girl Grace, she completely turns on you and becomes an abomination. And it was a psychopath mage that killed Hawke's mother....there were a few sour apples in the templar ranks, yes....but the mages were out.of.control in Kirkwall.

So...I guess my final belief is that the Circle IS needed.

I think the portrayal of mages as horrible, violent and cowardly human beings was completely intentional in the story.

First of all if they had made them all innocent and tortured the choice at the end of the story would be obvious and nobody would be torn about it - look at the poor oppressed mages - they have done nothing wrong but are getting killed - let's help them! 

Secondly, I believe this is part of the whole point. No people are black and white and no group of people can be generalised according to common traits in any way - humans are way too complex for that. It's easy to defend the obviously helpless that hide no inner horrors of their own - but can you defend people who continuously resort to blood magic and demons and kill innocents? Can you believe still, after everything you have seen, that they are not ALL like this and that if things were different they would not ALL be forced to resort to such measures? After one of them kills your own mother can you STILL stand for their freedom? Personally, I believe in equality and freedom - mages should be allowed to be evil if they wish, even if 99% of them are, for the sake of the 1% who are just like everyone else - gentle and loving. Regardless of what the majority of them manifest as I believe there are many good and wonderful people among them and they deserve the right to live. Not simply exist in fear and shame.

I'm not saying all mages should die, or that they deserve to be treated the way they do.
I'm just saying that the Circle of Magi really is needed...even in Ferelden you had your blood mages, and it's hard to determine why they turn to blood magic so quickly. In Kirkwall, it may have been desperation (I , of all people, know that desperation can drive you to do some crazy things...things you normally would never consider)....but what about Uldred? Some mages truly believe they should rule everyone else....that they should tap into power that's forbidden to enhance their strengths...it's like they don't realize how dangerous it is.

[Sialater]

Not every Templar is the bogeyman. Thrask was quite reasonable and was even working to bring down Meredith. And let's not forget Cullen.

The whole time I was killing Templars, I kept thinking (as Margaret), "Maker, some of these people are just kids!"

So,yes, I actually think it's logical he can be swayed to clean up his mess on the other side.

[CrookedAsylum]

Magaloo wrote...

From what I understood (and I may be completely wrong on this...) There was trouble way before chap. 3 when the mages were really constrained to their quarters and so on.  There is blood mage galore before that and Orsino (the sneaky bastard) is already helping the lilly killer and bloodmages randomly jumping me in the streets. 

Also the hellmouth influences more than just the mage, raising the incidence of bats**** crazy templars too.  The one good thing I guess is that it has the opposite effect on Cullen. 

I am torn about this... Hawke romanced Anders as a mage, she wanted mage freedom, she was ready to jump with him all the way and embrace the revolution but Kirwall is just one long diturbing festival of bloodmages!

Perhaps it was just a whole vicious circle, like Varric said; the more Meredith squeezed, the more the mages found ways to worm away. The more the mages squirmed away, the more Meredith squeezed. In the end, I don't necessarily think anyone was more in the the right, but I am more sympathetic with the mages. Kirkwall was a ball of insanity wrapped in Joker giftwrap crazy on all sides, but as for the rest of Thedas, I think siding with the mages of Kirkwall was necessay if the rest of them are ever going to see equality.

Modifié par CrookedAsylum, 25 mars 2011 - 04:34 .

[Threeparts]

SurelyForth wrote...

But it doesn't change the fact that, at his core, Anders is a compassionate person. Unless him siding with the templars is an indication that Hawke can twist him as much as Vengeance, then it is...wrong. You're not saving him from himself in that situation, you're forcing him into doing something that he should never want or be able to do otherwise. His hands planted the bomb, even if Justice was at the controls, and it is the bombing that lead to the Rite being called. Unless he is just completely shattered to the core of his being, he should recognize this and, as Anders, killing those that he condemned to death is a betrayal of pretty much everything he ever was.

Precisely, well put! Even if you convince him that Justice has hurt his cause and he needs to atone, I simply can't see how he could bring himself to do so by Anulling an entire Circle full of mages, down to the last man. Not that he should be reluctant just because they're mages, but because there are innocents in that tower. He would be killing them as an act of repentance for the crime that condemned them in the first place.

That's ****ed up, man.

[Sialater]

Some of those Templars are innocent, too.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Sialater wrote...

Not every Templar is the bogeyman. Thrask was quite reasonable and was even working to bring down Meredith. And let's not forget Cullen.

The whole time I was killing Templars, I kept thinking (as Margaret), "Maker, some of these people are just kids!"

So,yes, I actually think it's logical he can be swayed to clean up his mess on the other side.

Random: But I think Cullen looked better in DA2 than he did in Origins.
And I completely agree. Anders is convinced that all templars want to watch mages suffer...but it was a templar that let Hawke's father run free, and Thrask and Keran are really good people. Even Cullen, though I thought he was bat**** crazy in Origins....

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

[Herr Uhl]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

That is in the future, after Meredith.

Edit: Or a rewrite, that is possible too.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 25 mars 2011 - 04:38 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

That is in the future, after Meredith.

Really?
Well that's interesting.

[CrookedAsylum]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

I have a save where I killed Leliana that I just imported. She regrew her head. =|

[Magaloo]

SurelyForth wrote...

Magaloo wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I...think that Anders might be ruined for me now. I find the idea of him EVER siding with the templars for the Rite to be so profoundly hypocritical that I cannot even stand it.

I agree if we just look at Anders from what we experiment in game.  I feel that what Jennifer has commented on through the boards changes that a bit.  The way she explained that if you rival romance Anders you can really make him feel like J/V is really manipulating him like a puppet really and it was a bad idea from the start that perverted his desire to free the mages.  In Awakening Anders really dont care for the plight of his fellow mage so I can understand how Justice is the one pushing through it.  in that case I can understand how he could be convinced to side with templar to fix what he has done while being in Anders mode. 

That said... all that does not really transpire during a regular playthrough so i understand your disgust at the idea of him siding against the mages.  Personally it is not something I desire to see. 

But it doesn't change the fact that, at his core, Anders is a compassionate person. Unless him siding with the templars is an indication that Hawke can twist him as much as Vengeance, then it is...wrong. You're not saving him from himself in that situation, you're forcing him into doing something that he should never want or be able to do otherwise. His hands planted the bomb, even if Justice was at the controls, and it is the bombing that lead to the Rite being called. Unless he is just completely shattered to the core of his being, he should recognize this and, as Anders, killing those that he condemned to death is a betrayal of pretty much everything he ever was.

@Sialater

If it was an attack on all the mages in Kirkwall, maybe. He will fight any that attack throughout the game. However, going into the Circle to kill mages in their prison is so beyond "sometimes the templars are right." It would be like him agreeing to aid in Tranquilizing every mage in the Circle. Those mages are not the problem, they are just the casualties of a broken system that he has been railing against his entire life.

Well said... I guess I am just trying to explain it to myself more than anything so I appreciate your comments. 

That kiss though.. I dont understand it at all.  Its even more misplaced that if he kissed Hawke at the end of the Friendship romance

[Ninche]

SurelyForth wrote...

Magaloo wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I...think that Anders might be ruined for me now. I find the idea of him EVER siding with the templars for the Rite to be so profoundly hypocritical that I cannot even stand it.

I agree if we just look at Anders from what we experiment in game.  I feel that what Jennifer has commented on through the boards changes that a bit.  The way she explained that if you rival romance Anders you can really make him feel like J/V is really manipulating him like a puppet really and it was a bad idea from the start that perverted his desire to free the mages.  In Awakening Anders really dont care for the plight of his fellow mage so I can understand how Justice is the one pushing through it.  in that case I can understand how he could be convinced to side with templar to fix what he has done while being in Anders mode. 

That said... all that does not really transpire during a regular playthrough so i understand your disgust at the idea of him siding against the mages.  Personally it is not something I desire to see. 

But it doesn't change the fact that, at his core, Anders is a compassionate person. Unless him siding with the templars is an indication that Hawke can twist him as much as Vengeance, then it is...wrong. You're not saving him from himself in that situation, you're forcing him into doing something that he should never want or be able to do otherwise. His hands planted the bomb, even if Justice was at the controls, and it is the bombing that lead to the Rite being called. Unless he is just completely shattered to the core of his being, he should recognize this and, as Anders, killing those that he condemned to death is a betrayal of pretty much everything he ever was.

I think most people have a hard time accepting the fact that someone is sharing their LI's body and mind. Everyone seems to want to cast Justice away, to free Anders from him, they blame Justice for everything Anders does that they consider wrong. But Anders and Justice are one. I think with love should come complete acceptance. This is who you are - and you are not perfect - but I love you. Anders pretty much embodies the whole mage issue within himself: There is a profoundly loving and humane side to him, and a raging aggressive desire for vengence. You can't have one without the other - you can't free mages without accepting that many of them will run amock and will abuse their power and will seek to dominate and rule over others. But you should know that there will be mages who will fight against evil as best they can, who will strive for a new better world of peace and acceptance. 

And I personally think tearing at Anders'mind and sould yourself - tormenting him further is not something an accepting and loving partner would do. You shouldn't need to change the person you are with in order to be happy.

[Purposeof-Flight]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

I have a save where I killed Leliana that I just imported. She regrew her head. =|

I remember someone else saying they killed Zevran and yet he appears in a cameo.


OH quick question for everyone....in order for the events of your Awakening save to have an impact on the story, do you have to import straight from Awakening? Or do you just import your Origins save? Because every time I try to import my Awakening save, it says that Origins was not completed in that particular save, so Varric's just gonna have to make stuff up.

[Threeparts]

Andraste's ******, why couldn't we bring the Enigma of Kirkwall stuff to the attention of someone in game? It should have been a ****ing quest, not just codex entries! Why couldn't we fix things before they got this bad? Why didn't anyone ever ****ing listen? That helplessness in the final act makes me feel like I'm fifteen years again, screaming at my parents that they never listen, they don't understand. **** you, Kirkwall. **** you so hard.

I think I need to lie down. Good job, BW (and I mean that as sincerely as possible), you just keep making it ****ing hurt.

[Sialater]

SurelyForth wrote...

@Sialater

If it was an attack on all the mages in Kirkwall, maybe. He will fight any that attack throughout the game. However, going into the Circle to kill mages in their prison is so beyond "sometimes the templars are right." It would be like him agreeing to aid in Tranquilizing every mage in the Circle. Those mages are not the problem, they are just the casualties of a broken system that he has been railing against his entire life.

Not really.  They were cornered.  They resorted to the unthinkable out of weakness.  Those mages are precisely the problem.  And really?  Did you find any innocent mages at all in that tower?  I was attacked by a room full of blood mages pretending to be Templars.  You know.. the very people I was trying to save?  None of them were innocent by the end.


(I still saved them and in general agree with you, but I can see how the 180 could make sense.)

[Threeparts]

Sialater wrote...

Some of those Templars are innocent, too.

The templars had a choice to join the order, the mages did not have the choice to join the Circle. Absolutely there are good templars in there: we saw that when they let us walk away. But they can quit, they can put down their swords and walk away. Mages never had that option.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Keran was the most adorable and well-meaning Templar ever. I want more of him.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Threeparts wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Some of those Templars are innocent, too.

The templars had a choice to join the order, the mages did not have the choice to join the Circle. Absolutely there are good templars in there: we saw that when they let us walk away. But they can quit, they can put down their swords and walk away. Mages never had that option.

I completely understand everyone's fear of mages, though. As far as I saw, Ferelden's Circle of Magi was not terrible, yet the entire Circle was destroyed by a rampaging blood mage and his group of followers. Even in Kirkwall, the mage who was possessing Templars with demons said that she was doing it to cause chaos amongst their ranks, so the mages could rise, and it would be like the Tevinter Imperium all over again.

I know Fenris is biased, but the way he describes the Tevinter Imperium is terrible. Mages stomping around using blood magic, and enslaving their own kind.

I'm not completely against mages, but I disagree with Anders when he says that ALL mages should be free. It makes me shiver to think what one blood mage could do, in comparison to one Templar.

[Dunizel]

Magaloo wrote...


That kiss though.. I dont understand it at all.  Its even more misplaced that if he kissed Hawke at the end of the Friendship romance

I think that somehow, in the rivalry path, Anders understands that you really care for him. And you are worried for his well being and Vengeance controlling him.  Whereas always supporting him in the friendly one, in that moment he is more focused in his mission to freee mages. 
I think a rivalmanced Anders is more selfish in that moment, in a way, that the friendly one who is solely focused on his mission.

The kiss so, for me, is more a way to look for comfort and strenght, before following you in what he believed wasn't possible: go aginst mages. I think he is somewhat seeking atonement.

Let's face it, I think the final battle it's not really mages vs templars, after siding with the mages and winning, I don't think I ever felt that I caccomplished something to free them...it's just a big chaos. Meredith was to be killed, and we do kill her anyway...but really...

I still will do a playthrough in which I'll ride in the sunset on a unicorn with the renegade Anders as fugitives (a mage Hawke)...but I think Iìll just start right now a warrior male Hawke to rivalmance him o.o