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[Ninche]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

I have a save where I killed Leliana that I just imported. She regrew her head. =|

I remember someone else saying they killed Zevran and yet he appears in a cameo.


OH quick question for everyone....in order for the events of your Awakening save to have an impact on the story, do you have to import straight from Awakening? Or do you just import your Origins save? Because every time I try to import my Awakening save, it says that Origins was not completed in that particular save, so Varric's just gonna have to make stuff up.

I had that problem too, apparently if you complete Witch Hunt after awakening and import the save of its epilogue it will work for DA2 with both your origins and awakening decisions. 

[leggywillow]

SurelyForth wrote...

I...think that Anders might be ruined for me now. I find the idea of him EVER siding with the templars for the Rite to be so profoundly hypocritical that I cannot even stand it.

Anders certainly isn't ruined for me, but I find that to be a very weird ending.  Very weird.  I still wish we could get some version of that rival speech when siding with the mages, because siding with the templars really does seem ridiculously out-of-character for Anders.

That is the biggest troll move ever on Anders's part.

Orsino:  OMG!  They're killing all the mages because Anders blew up the Chantry!
Anders: Okay Meredith, I will help you kill the mages!
Orsino: But... but... they're only killing us because of you!
Anders: LOL U MAD
Orsino:  What is this I don't even

[YamiSnuffles]

I think the problem I have is... while it's obvious that not all the Templars are evil, they aren't the ones Anders just doomed to death. He is the reason the Circle is being annulled at the time. If he is going to atone, he should be helping them not helping to wipe them out.

Edited for this:

leggywillow wrote...

That is the biggest troll move ever on Anders's part.

Orsino:  OMG!  They're killing all the mages because Anders blew up the Chantry!
Anders: Okay Meredith, I will help you kill the mages!
Orsino: But... but... they're only killing us because of you!
Anders: LOL U MAD
Orsino: [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pouty.png[/smilie] What is this I don't even

This entirely. This best sums up how this makes me feel.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 25 mars 2011 - 04:51 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

leggywillow wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I...think that Anders might be ruined for me now. I find the idea of him EVER siding with the templars for the Rite to be so profoundly hypocritical that I cannot even stand it.

Anders certainly isn't ruined for me, but I find that to be a very weird ending.  Very weird.  I still wish we could get some version of that rival speech when siding with the mages, because siding with the templars really does seem ridiculously out-of-character for Anders.

That is the biggest troll move ever on Anders's part.

Orsino:  OMG!  They're killing all the mages because Anders blew up the Chantry!
Anders: Okay Meredith, I will help you kill the mages!
Orsino: But... but... they're only killing us because of you!
Anders: LOL U MAD
Orsino:  What is this I don't even

LMFAO...I can imagine Awakening Anders going, "I did what? What chantry? THAT chantry? Nahh that wasn't me."

And Orsino going: 

[Rinji the Bearded]

Anders> Er, I didn't do it. (itwasJustice.)
Hawke> ... Has this line worked for you before?
Anders> Indeed it has.

[nyxocity]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I think the problem I have is... while it's obvious that not all the Templars are evil, they aren't the ones Anders just doomed to death. He is the reason the Circle is being annulled at the time. If he is going to atone, he should be helping them not helping to wipe them out.

He's not. If you talk to Cullen in Act III, before the scene at the Chantry, he'll tell you Meredith already called for the Rite of Annullment.

[YamiSnuffles]

thenyxie wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I think the problem I have is... while it's obvious that not all the Templars are evil, they aren't the ones Anders just doomed to death. He is the reason the Circle is being annulled at the time. If he is going to atone, he should be helping them not helping to wipe them out.

He's not. If you talk to Cullen in Act III, before the scene at the Chantry, he'll tell you Meredith already called for the Rite of Annullment.

That is precisely why I said "at the time." Even if Meredith called for it earlier, she uses Anders as the reason it must be done. She says it's the only way because people will want blood after a mage killed the Grand Cleric. Anders insured that the Right would be carried out at that moment.

[CrookedAsylum]

thenyxie wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I think the problem I have is... while it's obvious that not all the Templars are evil, they aren't the ones Anders just doomed to death. He is the reason the Circle is being annulled at the time. If he is going to atone, he should be helping them not helping to wipe them out.

He's not. If you talk to Cullen in Act III, before the scene at the Chantry, he'll tell you Meredith already called for the Rite of Annullment.

Not to mention that the White Divine was already planning on doing something horrible with Kirkwall anyway.

Modifié par CrookedAsylum, 25 mars 2011 - 04:57 .

[Threeparts]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

I completely understand everyone's fear of mages, though. As far as I saw, Ferelden's Circle of Magi was not terrible, yet the entire Circle was destroyed by a rampaging blood mage and his group of followers. Even in Kirkwall, the mage who was possessing Templars with demons said that she was doing it to cause chaos amongst their ranks, so the mages could rise, and it would be like the Tevinter Imperium all over again.

I know Fenris is biased, but the way he describes the Tevinter Imperium is terrible. Mages stomping around using blood magic, and enslaving their own kind.

I'm not completely against mages, but I disagree with Anders when he says that ALL mages should be free. It makes me shiver to think what one blood mage could do, in comparison to one Templar.

I agree that a single mage can cause a lot of destruction, but just think - a normal person could have blown up the chantry just as easily. Bombs in DA don't require magic - we saw that with the mad dwarf in Awakening and the Qunari gaatlok in DA2.
Locking up an entire minority because some of them might go crazy leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Anyone could go crazy, so wouldn't it be better to have a society where no mage feels they need to dabble in something dangerous to protect themselves? A society where they are taught self-control and are given the chance to show that they can be just as responsible as any other regular person? 
It doesn't have to be a second Imperium, not if handled right. If a mage finally gains freedom after being locked in a Tower alone since they were a child, and then has the threat of having that freedom taken away from them... well, I can understand going crazy and prefering to die fighting then to go quietly. But if they no longer had that threat looming over them, if they knew that they would be punished for stealing the same way as a normal person, not by having their emotions, dreams and magic stripped of them, then there would be less panicky fear driving them to extremes.

I know it's probably idealistic, but I do believe it could work. Hawke's sister grew up as a free mage, and even if she doubted herself she remained a steadfastly good person.

[CrookedAsylum]

Threeparts wrote...

I agree that a single mage can cause a lot of destruction, but just think - a normal person could have blown up the chantry just as easily. Bombs in DA don't require magic - we saw that with the mad dwarf in Awakening and the Qunari gaatlok in DA2.
Locking up an entire minority because some of them might go crazy leaves a horrible taste in my mouth. Anyone could go crazy, so wouldn't it be better to have a society where no mage feels they need to dabble in something dangerous to protect themselves? A society where they are taught self-control and are given the chance to show that they can be just as responsible as any other regular person?...

Reminds me of the party banter between Fenris and Anders.

Fenris: I kill people at no behest of a demon!
Anders: So we agree that people can be unrepentant killers without being an abomination. Good.

[SurelyForth]

Sialater wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

@Sialater

If it was an attack on all the mages in Kirkwall, maybe. He will fight any that attack throughout the game. However, going into the Circle to kill mages in their prison is so beyond "sometimes the templars are right." It would be like him agreeing to aid in Tranquilizing every mage in the Circle. Those mages are not the problem, they are just the casualties of a broken system that he has been railing against his entire life.

Not really.  They were cornered.  They resorted to the unthinkable out of weakness.  Those mages are precisely the problem.  And really?  Did you find any innocent mages at all in that tower?  I was attacked by a room full of blood mages pretending to be Templars.  You know.. the very people I was trying to save?  None of them were innocent by the end.


(I still saved them and in general agree with you, but I can see how the 180 could make sense.)

Yeah, I don't see how defending yourself from people who want to come and kill you in your home is weakness.

Weakness would be turning into abominations in the night and killing templars as you escape. What happens in the Gallows is pure desperation borne from the human drive for survival.

[Herr Uhl]

SurelyForth wrote...

Weakness would be turning into abominations in the night and killing templars as you escape. What happens in the Gallows is pure desperation borne from the human drive for survival.

You mean like Anders did?

[DeaHamlet]

Ugh. Just ugh. I was already determined that I was never to do a rivalmance with Anders... what with being so pro-mage that the templar siding run-through was a "let's walk this super super thin line of compromise... and aim for peace. what? none of you want to find a compromise? nobody wants to do anything? oh and Anders you just blew up the chantry? *sigh* fine fine I'm getting involved in this mess... let's try to end this quickly and hopefully this will satisfy the people enough to not start a bloody war against ALL the mages.." and then in the end of the templar run Hawke was... OH ****, Meredith you're an insane **** and you all started a war ANYWAY. Talk about pointless slaughtering and you bastards got me involved in this mess AND I had to kill a dear friend over this? I am totally going to go find the warden and maybe even that **** Morrigan and walk away from this cursed land with your darkspawn and blood magic and whatnots!

Ahem... where was I? Yes, even my rogue wasn't very pro-templar. I cannot fathom being so pro-templar as to have fights with Anders over it, keep telling him he's wrong and then convince him to come help me carry out the right of annullment.
I cannot imagine playing a Hawke like that and I cannot fathom one of my Hawke's in love with Anders and making him do this. Whether or not it was Vengeance who blew up the stuff, whether or not he no longer cares for the blight of mages... I could never let him raise a hand... against innocent mages.

What for did I stop him from killing that girl earlier? How is he helping with the right of annullment any different than him killing that innocent mage who wanted nothing but to live?

Did you see the scene? Did you see when the templars attack, how pretty much any mage NOT turning into a maleficar is run through the blade in 2 seconds flat by templars?
And to make Anders help with this?

No. Just no.
It makes me angry to contemplate.

Alas, others can go that route... I prefer my Anders dedicated to the end to the cause. That is something I can admire. Anders in Awakening was cute and adorable, but he wasn't a man to admire and adore. He was just a selfish boy trapped in a man's body dreaming of freedom. I wanted to help him, but a partner and lover he could not have been.

[SurelyForth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Weakness would be turning into abominations in the night and killing templars as you escape. What happens in the Gallows is pure desperation borne from the human drive for survival.

You mean like Anders did?

No, because Anders was being threatened when he Vengeanced out and killed the templar and other Wardens. Up until that point, the implication was that he always went willingly back to the Tower when he was captured. So he wasn't cornered in his home, but he was defending himself from someone who was going to kill him otherwise.

And this only happened because Justice became corrupted inside of him. Normal Anders would not have allowed himself to be possessed by a demon in self-defense, and his merging with Justice was not compelled by a desire to go on a templar killing spree.

[Eydris Ivo]

Has anyone successfully gotten him to side with the templars on a Rivalmance? I've heard that people are having trouble and/or bugs.

[Anarya]

Wait wait, so you CAN get Anders to side with the templars? I don't like this, not one bit. I find myself frequently wanting a "side with Varric" option, which would look something like this:

[_]side with mages
[x]to hell with all of you! I need a drink.
[_]side with templars

[YamiSnuffles]

Anarya wrote...
I find myself frequently wanting a "side with Varric" option, which would look something like this:

[_]side with mages
[x]to hell with all of you! I need a drink.
[_]side with templars

Hahaha, I felt exactly the same way sometimes. I just wanted Hawke to throw up her arms and say, "I'm out!" Then maybe drag Anders off the Hellmouth and give him a basket of kittens.

[Threeparts]

Anarya wrote...

Wait wait, so you CAN get Anders to side with the templars? I don't like this, not one bit. I find myself frequently wanting a "side with Varric" option, which would look something like this:

[_]side with mages
[x]to hell with all of you! I need a drink.
[_]side with templars

Seriously! My ideal response to that moment would be for my Hawke to throw down her sword in disgust, spit on the ground in front of Orsino and Meredith, and catch the next boat back to Sanity.

[LastFadingSmile]

lamppostinwinter wrote...

I find it really intresting that someone had to go into the debug to find out about this whole Anders' siding with the Templars business. Which means no one went full rivalry, kept him alive, then sided with the Templars. Or at least no one said anything about it, which is extreamly unlikely because if stumbling on something like that is not something you keep quiet about.

Still trying to process the idea or this. I'm going to have to do a playthrough with that path before I really decide how I feel about it. It's kind of breaking my brain right now though.

However, it is messed up that you only get a kiss from Anders if are a total jerk to him the whole game and then you force him to kill the people he had been fighting for. Forget about Hawke being emotionally abused by him, seems like Anders' is the one with battered wife syndrome.

I agree, on all accounts. The conditions for this even coming up as a possibility are apparently so specific that it's an incredibly rare outcome.

I don't really know what to make of it. It seems unwholesome, but at the same time, I'm morbidly curious enough to want to see it for myself. In my head I just can't see any way in which this is a "good" result for anyone, not Hawke, not Anders, certainly not the mages... the only benefit I can see at all is the possibility for  good coming of Hawke assuming the Viscount's seat, but I can't see that making up for the path taken to get there, or the virtual disassembly of one of the game's most key figures.

I just don't know about all this. 

And the kiss thing is just weird.

"I am utterly destroyed and have lost all sense of self. Let's kill mages together, omnomnomnomnom"

makes more sense than

"You've stuck by me in spite of what I did, and have agreed to run away into the hills with me because you presumably still love me, let's kill templars together omnomnomnomnom."?

I don't buy it. <_<

Modifié par Kolotosa, 25 mars 2011 - 05:34 .

[leggywillow]

Rheia1234 wrote...

Has anyone successfully gotten him to side with the templars on a Rivalmance? I've heard that people are having trouble and/or bugs.

No, I tried it just now out of curiosity and couldn't get him to do it.  I rival-manced him and got the whole "what have I done, I'm sorry" conversation where he rethinks his actions but then Justice takes over.  But then when I asked him to side with the templars, he just said "Aw hell no".  Maybe it's because that character supported the templars the entire time?  Maybe if you support the mages up to that point you can talk him into it.

I wouldn't ever keep that ending, because I think it seems out-of-character and strange, but I had to try it FOR SCIENCE!  Couldn't get it to work, though.

[Eydris Ivo]

leggywillow wrote...

Rheia1234 wrote...

Has anyone successfully gotten him to side with the templars on a Rivalmance? I've heard that people are having trouble and/or bugs.

No, I tried it just now out of curiosity and couldn't get him to do it.  I rival-manced him and got the whole "what have I done, I'm sorry" conversation where he rethinks his actions but then Justice takes over.  But then when I asked him to side with the templars, he just said "Aw hell no".  Maybe it's because that character supported the templars the entire time?  Maybe if you support the mages up to that point you can talk him into it.

I wouldn't ever keep that ending, because I think it seems out-of-character and strange, but I had to try it FOR SCIENCE!  Couldn't get it to work, though.

I wonder how the heck it's done. Did you help him distract the cleric, or refuse?
Hmm, I wonder how we do it...for science.

[Sialater]

Threeparts wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Wait wait, so you CAN get Anders to side with the templars? I don't like this, not one bit. I find myself frequently wanting a "side with Varric" option, which would look something like this:

[_]side with mages
[x]to hell with all of you! I need a drink.
[_]side with templars

Seriously! My ideal response to that moment would be for my Hawke to throw down her sword in disgust, spit on the ground in front of Orsino and Meredith, and catch the next boat back to Sanity.

Heh, maybe I'll have to revise my opinion that Hawke was the only mage not effected by the idol+Hellmouth insanity.  Clearly it was insane to STAY IN KIRKWALL and not pack everyone back up and head to Ferelden to take King Alistair up on his hero-for-hire job offer.

[SurelyForth]

Threeparts wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Wait wait, so you CAN get Anders to side with the templars? I don't like this, not one bit. I find myself frequently wanting a "side with Varric" option, which would look something like this:

[_]side with mages
[x]to hell with all of you! I need a drink.
[_]side with templars

Seriously! My ideal response to that moment would be for my Hawke to throw down her sword in disgust, spit on the ground in front of Orsino and Meredith, and catch the next boat back to Sanity.

I wrote this yesterday, but this is how I'd hope that the others would react to Anders siding with the templars:

Anders: Hey, guys. So I thought...well, I missed you and thought you could use some help.
Hawke: You're going to aid in the Annulment?
Anders: Maybe?
Aveline: **** no, you're not. Not after 7 YEARS of EVERY conversation being templars are horrible, this and mages are slaves, that.
Varric: She's right, Blondie. We did put up with a lot of your rhetoric.
Aveline: And the only tolerable thing about it was that at least you were sincere in your beliefs.
Aveline: Without that, you're just an ass.
Varric: And crazy.
Anders: Fine. Let's fi-
Fenris: *wipes off blade* It is done.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 25 mars 2011 - 05:31 .

[Sialater]

leggywillow wrote...

Rheia1234 wrote...

Has anyone successfully gotten him to side with the templars on a Rivalmance? I've heard that people are having trouble and/or bugs.

No, I tried it just now out of curiosity and couldn't get him to do it.  I rival-manced him and got the whole "what have I done, I'm sorry" conversation where he rethinks his actions but then Justice takes over.  But then when I asked him to side with the templars, he just said "Aw hell no".  Maybe it's because that character supported the templars the entire time?  Maybe if you support the mages up to that point you can talk him into it.

I wouldn't ever keep that ending, because I think it seems out-of-character and strange, but I had to try it FOR SCIENCE!  Couldn't get it to work, though.

It's probably bugged to hell and back.  So, I'll probably never try this.