57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Anarya]

Kitimandiri wrote...

I'm doing a rivalmance with him this play through. Can you side with the Templars and still have him stay with you?

Apparently yes you can, unless it's bugged.

[Threeparts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

MMM, NUTELLANDERS SANDWICH

Squishy and delicious!

[crotti]

Dunizel wrote...

crotti wrote...

I can't help thinking "Assuming direct control" all the time. I don't know why.
Good job, Anders. Now I'm completely insane. Just like you.

T_T Ser Pouts-A-Lot is evil.

Is it normal that I created the character ten minutes ago, looked at Ser Pouts-a-Lot image, and I threw out of the window the idea of rivalmance siding with the templars?

He is driving us mad, mad I tell you!

I'll just go with a rivalmance, ok. Just because he will pout-a-lot more.

I'm creating a character at the moment... but I don't know what she should be like <_<" 
Do I have to be a **** to get rivalry points? I'm not sure whether I'll manage to play a character like that or not.
I never wanted to do this but.... >_<  The Andersness corrupted me XD 

[nyxocity]

lamppostinwinter wrote...


Before all this crazyness came to light, I was on the side of the camp that agreed that he shouldn't kiss you at the end. My reasoning was that it would have been extreamly wrong given that he had just blown up the chantry, it would be disrespectful. And at that point he would have known he was walking on thin ice, even if Hawke agreed to stay with him, and he probably felt like he didn't deserve her at that point. But then I saw that he kisses you if you convince him he was wrong about Justice and my mind was blown and I couldn't really stick with that argument anymore because kissing her when he sides with the templars is WAY more disrespectful than if had kissed her on the mage side.

thenyxie wrote...

I don't think it is that. I think what it is (and this is what disturbs me most about this entire reveal), is that maybe at the end of the rivalmance, you're dealing with pure ANDERS, no Justice. So you get a human reaction. At the end of the friendmance, he has merged with Justice completely and nothing is more important than the mission of saving the mages. Kissing you would be a distraction from the mission.

I... really don't like that explanation. But it's the only one that makes sense to me.

But this makes complete sense, and is very unsettling. Before I thought Anders would be able to control Justice more after this, I don't know anymore. This is breaking my brain.

Exactly. Like I was just saying, I'd really love to ignore the whole thing. Because the thing that troubles me about it the most is that it's yet again another gray area for me. Proof that there's no true GOOD to be had at either end of the spectrum; just choices that mostly suck. At least when I forgave Anders and saved the mages, I felt like I did the right thing--my character still feels she did the right thing, but now I'M confused. I never knew there COULD be another outcome. And making me question whether or not it would be kinder (eventually, post-game) to convince him to separate from Justice just messes with my head all over again.

[Kawamura]

Oh, jeez.

Guess I'm trying rivalmance. Not going pro-templars, though. While there are certainly innocent Templars, I get the feeling that pro-mage is more a survival thing while pro-templar is actively killing. Because, you know, anulling and all.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

MMM, NUTELLANDERS SANDWICH

Squishy and delicious!

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

[Kitimandiri]

I really don't see it mattering what or where Justice is at that point really. Justice never took over completely, they both shared the same ideas at that point. As Anders said, the couldn't tell where on started and one stopped. If Anders was really that against blowing up the chantry I'm pretty sure he'd have been able to mention something further to Hawke for help.

[Threeparts]

thenyxie wrote...

And making me question whether or not it would be kinder (eventually, post-game) to convince him to separate from Justice just messes with my head all over again.

That's one of the big things that bugs me about it: from all indications, it's not possible for them to separate unless Anders dies. So while convincing him that what he did with Justice is wrong might be true, what can he do about it other than feel horribly guilty and regretful? If you were instead convincing him to go through with an actual ritual to break them apart, sure, but otherwise it just seems like he's having to bear more hopeless guilt. It's one thing to encourage someone to seek redemption, and quite another to throw that at them. 

[CrookedAsylum]

RinjiRenee wrote...

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

This amused me more than it should.

[DeaHamlet]

thenyxie wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

thenyxie wrote...
Heh *G* Well of course. Maybe I should say; kissing Hawke right NOW during the battle would be a distraction.

You know what?  I can see that.  I can totally see that.  I was oohing and aahing after Fenris kissed me and I wasn't a very good leader during the Orsino/Meredith fights at all... good thing my mates know what to do, hehe.  
So yeah, good on you Justice/Anders, no distracting the pretty mage with kisses.  

Yeah, that part alone makes sense and is not depressing

I want to ignore this whole Anders sides w/ the Templars business, too, and I think I will. The thing that troubles me about it the most is that it's yet again another gray area for me. Proof that there's no true GOOD to be had at either end of the spectrum; just choices that mostly suck. At least when I forgave Anders and saved the mages, I felt like I did the right thing--my character still feels she did the right thing, but now I'M confused. Making me quesion whether or not it would be kinder (eventually, post-game) to convince him to separate from Justice just messes with my head all over again.

We won't know until DA:3 or expansions.  And maybe not even then.  I think in the end, it might just remain a very very personal subjective thing.
I am very pro-mage, my warden has biased me immensely, so I cannot side with the templars in a serious way, nor is that even going to be canon for me.  I also have a hard time strongly disagreeing with a lot of what Anders says.  Yes, he can be a jerk at times (poor Merrill and Fenris), but he's also an amazing interesting character with very interesting viewpoint.  I truly heard what the keeper said about trying to split them apart... Justice and Anders, and I'm not sure if it could be done, if it wouldn't leave Anders more susceptible to demon possession.
A real way to split them has not been offered by the game.  Having them fight for control is not splitting them.  I don't know which is healthier or not.  In the end, I cannot make a Hawke with the right kind of approach to the issues of mages that would antagonize Anders enough to lead to him gaining control.  I think the control he shows in the templar video is a very sketchy temporary one... I cannot forsee good things.  But then again, my biggest problem is that I cannot play the game as the type of character that would lead Anders to that point.  Regardless of what is or is not best for him.

I can metagame within some very strict boundaries, but I cannot metagame THAT much.  If the game ever offers a possibility to split them apart with certain consequences, I shall endevour to entertain its merits at that time based on whatever situation I brought about with my canon playthrough (one for Anders romance, one for Fenris romance, both siding with mages).  Consequences will only be seen next game...

Or maybe it will be like Morrigan and we'll see NOTHING. and it will seem like "what was the point, demon child with Morrigan or not, doesn't seem to make a zip of difference"

[Kawamura]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

MMM, NUTELLANDERS SANDWICH

Squishy and delicious!

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

And tears. Hazlenut and tears.

[Rinji the Bearded]

CrookedAsylum wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

This amused me more than it should.

Just trying to keep the bipolar nature of this thread stable.

[Anarya]

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

[SurelyForth]

Kitimandiri wrote...

I really don't see it mattering what or where Justice is at that point really. Justice never took over completely, they both shared the same ideas at that point. As Anders said, the couldn't tell where on started and one stopped. If Anders was really that against blowing up the chantry I'm pretty sure he'd have been able to mention something further to Hawke for help.

Anders doesn't seem to fully grasp his relationship with Justice. Justice WILL come out and talk to Hawke during the Rivalry romance, including telling Hawke that Anders doesn't need him/her. And, according to Anders' writer, it is Justice/Vengeance who plants the bomb when you rival Anders because Hawke has convinced Anders that he's been wrong, while Anders who is at friendly does it willingly.

So it seems like the things Justice wants badly enough get done, even if Anders is fighting him. Up until the point where Hawke expects Anders to help him Annul the Circle. Then Justice flips out, but doesn't do anything to stop him.

[Kawamura]

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

Yeeeah. That's always been my problem.

... Maybe I should just do it manually ... Hrrrm.

[Anarya]

Threeparts wrote...

thenyxie wrote...

And making me question whether or not it would be kinder (eventually, post-game) to convince him to separate from Justice just messes with my head all over again.

That's one of the big things that bugs me about it: from all indications, it's not possible for them to separate unless Anders dies. So while convincing him that what he did with Justice is wrong might be true, what can he do about it other than feel horribly guilty and regretful? If you were instead convincing him to go through with an actual ritual to break them apart, sure, but otherwise it just seems like he's having to bear more hopeless guilt. It's one thing to encourage someone to seek redemption, and quite another to throw that at them. 

It may not be possible to separate them but Anders is losing perspective and control. If convincing him that blowing up the Chantry was wrong forces him to either exert more control over Vengeance or prevents him from doing things like that in the future I think it's worth it. That would be my motive, personally.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Kawamura wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

Yeeeah. That's always been my problem.

... Maybe I should just do it manually ... Hrrrm.

MM, MANUALLY-- *shot*

I'll admit I fear rivalmancing Anders because he's rather like an angry cat when backed into a corner.  Have you ever had attacked by an angry cat?  Yeah.  It's nightmarish.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 25 mars 2011 - 06:29 .

[Threeparts]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
MMM, NUTELLANDERS SANDWICH

Squishy and delicious!

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

[DeaHamlet]

I cannot imagine making a Hawke just to try to achieve that... I roleplay Hawkettes, they are as they are... and I cannot make one that disagrees enough to Anders for a rivalry. *shrug*
I also am not convinced it's better for him to do rivalry, but then again... it's irrelevant since I cannot play a Hawkette of that kind of well... mental construction?! to get there.
As to Merrill... I can easily see a mage or warrior Hawke in her future that heavily disagrees. My canon might even be one of those, easily. Right now - evil blood mage totally supports Merrill, LOLz.

[Kawamura]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

Yeeeah. That's always been my problem.

... Maybe I should just do it manually ... Hrrrm.

MM, MANUALLY-- *shot*

I'll admit I fear rivalmancing Anders because he's rather like an angry cat when backed into a corner.  Have you ever had attacked by an angry cat?  Yeah.  It's nightmarish.

I just don't like the idea of Templars. Something about someone being in control over another group just makes me twitch and want to --

Well, not invite a spirit into me and blow things up. But certainly try to fix things sans explosions.

[SurelyForth]

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

That's my problem, too. That, and the fact that he is so tortured during the rivalry romance that it becomes difficult to see how it is healthy for him OR for Hawke.

I think that's what breaks me the most about this whole revelation. The rivalry ending might restore more "Anders" that is distinct from Justice, but if it's an Anders who would allow himself to be used as an instrument against mages in their Chantry prison, is that really Anders at all? 

[Rinji the Bearded]

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
MMM, NUTELLANDERS SANDWICH

Squishy and delicious!

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

OH HAWKE SO HUNGRY RIGHT NOW

[CrookedAsylum]

Kawamura wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

MMM, NUTELLANDERS SANDWICH

Squishy and delicious!

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

And tears. Hazlenut and tears.

Arsenic and old lace.

[leggywillow]

Threeparts wrote...

::immature and maniacal giggling::

Nuts.  Tee hee.

[Anarya]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

That's my problem, too. That, and the fact that he is so tortured during the rivalry romance that it becomes difficult to see how it is healthy for him OR for Hawke.

I think that's what breaks me the most about this whole revelation. The rivalry ending might restore more "Anders" that is distinct from Justice, but if it's an Anders who would allow himself to be used as an instrument against mages in their Chantry prison, is that really Anders at all? 

I don't even know. ANDERS WHY YOU GOTTA BE SO DIFFICULT??

I think I might have to play a jerky paladin type just to see the rivalmance but it'll still feel wrong.