57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Kawamura]

Why can't we hold an intervention and get, like, a billion rivalry points there.

"Anders, we need to talk. We're your friends here and we really think you need to stop with this Justice thing."

I don't want to be lawful good. ._______. Or lawful jerky.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Anarya wrote...

I think I might have to play a jerky paladin type just to see the rivalmance but it'll still feel wrong.

That's not a bad idea. Mind if I borrow it? I started playing a jerk pro-templar mage and being mean to Anders hurttttt.

I'm replaying my canon friendmance with Ginger Hawke 2.0. it's nice to be nice to him no matter what it means in the end.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 25 mars 2011 - 06:45 .

[CrookedAsylum]

leggywillow wrote...

::immature and maniacal giggling::

Nuts.  Tee hee.

I see what you did there.

[crotti]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

That's my problem, too. That, and the fact that he is so tortured during the rivalry romance that it becomes difficult to see how it is healthy for him OR for Hawke.

I think that's what breaks me the most about this whole revelation. The rivalry ending might restore more "Anders" that is distinct from Justice, but if it's an Anders who would allow himself to be used as an instrument against mages in their Chantry prison, is that really Anders at all? 

No matter what you do... everything is wrong. That's not fair. >_<

(And I still believe that the friendship romance is better...)

[nyxocity]

Threeparts wrote...

thenyxie wrote...

And making me question whether or not it would be kinder (eventually, post-game) to convince him to separate from Justice just messes with my head all over again.

That's one of the big things that bugs me about it: from all indications, it's not possible for them to separate unless Anders dies. So while convincing him that what he did with Justice is wrong might be true, what can he do about it other than feel horribly guilty and regretful? If you were instead convincing him to go through with an actual ritual to break them apart, sure, but otherwise it just seems like he's having to bear more hopeless guilt. It's one thing to encourage someone to seek redemption, and quite another to throw that at them. 

I guess the final scene with no Justice coming out, with Anders seemingly fully in control when he makes the decision to join the templars made me think maybe he could Justice under control, and that might be better. But thinking about what you're saying, I do agree that it could only be an ongoing conflict, because Justice isn't going away; he will come out again. And you're asking him to kill his own people for the sake of redemption, which also just seems... terribly wrong. IDK. The whole thing doesn't sit well with me and makes me feel vaguely ill.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I think I might have to play a jerky paladin type just to see the rivalmance but it'll still feel wrong.

That's not a bad idea. Mind if I borrow that it? I started playing a jerk pro-templar mage and being mean to Anders hurttttt.

I'm replaying my canon friendmance with Ginger Hawke 2.0. it's nice to be nice to him no matter what it means in the end.

Yeah, it felt nice for a while to be... happy...

let's go out with a bang, friendmanced Anders.

[Sialater]

Anarya wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

thenyxie wrote...

And making me question whether or not it would be kinder (eventually, post-game) to convince him to separate from Justice just messes with my head all over again.

That's one of the big things that bugs me about it: from all indications, it's not possible for them to separate unless Anders dies. So while convincing him that what he did with Justice is wrong might be true, what can he do about it other than feel horribly guilty and regretful? If you were instead convincing him to go through with an actual ritual to break them apart, sure, but otherwise it just seems like he's having to bear more hopeless guilt. It's one thing to encourage someone to seek redemption, and quite another to throw that at them. 

It may not be possible to separate them but Anders is losing perspective and control. If convincing him that blowing up the Chantry was wrong forces him to either exert more control over Vengeance or prevents him from doing things like that in the future I think it's worth it. That would be my motive, personally.

~Takes off Devil'd Advocate hat for a moment~

The problem with Justice/Anders is they cannot be separated.  It would destroy both.  The problem with the rivalry path is that it makes Anders try to pull away from Justice when that is NOT a solution.  The ONLY thing that will bring Vengeance back to Justice is for Anders to get control of his anger.  That ball of seething rage he used to drown in wine and wenches and smartassed remarks?  Yeah, that one.  Separating Justice and Anders won't solve that.  Anders still needs to clean his own house, so to speak, or his un-imaginary friend will really become a demon if he hasn't already.

The Rival path doesn't address Anders' true issues.  It lets him relegate the negative parts of himself to the perview of Justice, instead of taking responsibility for them himself.  HIS unacknowledged, unaddressed anger corrupted Justice.   And it didn't happen overnight.

I imagine, as he was the only one administering to the poor in Darktown that he saw more than his fair share of things the Chantry turned a blind eye toward.  The priests wouldn't set foot in Darktown, after all.  And neither did the Templars or the overworked guards.  He got angrier and angrier as the city got worse and worse.  Which fed Vengeance. 

The rivalry path doesn't do anything to make Anders see where it all started.  All it does is find a culprit.

[Threeparts]

Anarya wrote...

It may not be possible to separate them but Anders is losing perspective and control. If convincing him that blowing up the Chantry was wrong forces him to either exert more control over Vengeance or prevents him from doing things like that in the future I think it's worth it. That would be my motive, personally.

From what I've seen the rivalry romance is trying to get him to control Vengeance all along, and at the mansion after he's planted the bomb, it seems like it's not having much effect. When Anders admits what he did wasn't right, Vengeance still takes over. I'm not sure there's much hope that it'll improve. I certainly hope so, and I fully admit I haven't completed the rivalry path myself, but just as there's the possibility that Anders might win control, it seems just as likely that Vengeance will take over completely as he did in Night Terrors. It's risky, and it's up to the player if it's worth the reward.

[nyxocity]

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
MMM, NUTELLANDERS SANDWICH

Squishy and delicious!

JUSTICE TASTE LIKE HAZLENUT omnomnomnom

BWAH! *LOVES*

[Anarya]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I think I might have to play a jerky paladin type just to see the rivalmance but it'll still feel wrong.

That's not a bad idea. Mind if I borrow that it? I started playing a jerk pro-templar mage and being mean to Anders hurttttt.

I'm replaying my canon friendmance with Ginger Hawke 2.0. it's nice to be nice to him no matter what it means in the end.

Go right ahead! I'm not even sure which Hawke is my canon. Indecision! I actually already planned a jerky 2h warrior but I thought I might do Seb's non-romance with that one. But now I think I'll go for the Anders rivalmance...it's probably more worth the effort than Seb. I'll just youtube that one.

[DeaHamlet]

And it's not like you can smooth it over like with Fenris... I mean he's gonna yell at me no matter what *sigh*, but I can still be interested in his story, listen to him, be nice to him... and we're rivals because omg I help mages and kill templars.
In order to get that templar ending you have to:
1. Pretty much be for mages to return to the circle or to make them tranquil (hello Feynriel, and yepperz Anders knows even if he's not there for that one sigh). Or kill mages.
2. Keep being mean to Anders antagonizing him all the time, questioning him, never a nice freaking conversation.
3. Side with templars (oh that made me feel so dirty)
4. Convince Anders to come atone for his crime by killing the very people on whom Vengeance/Justice dropped this war without their consent.

I cannot do it. Cannot. Not even for ****s and giggles. Just not.

[DeaHamlet]

I know what Anders needs...

MORE WENCHES!

[LastFadingSmile]

Sialater wrote...

<great points about Anders/Justice's relationship that I'm about to completely undermine for my own amusement>

ANDERS. YOU CAN'T CHANGE WHAT YOU DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE!!

[nyxocity]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

That's my problem, too. That, and the fact that he is so tortured during the rivalry romance that it becomes difficult to see how it is healthy for him OR for Hawke.

I think that's what breaks me the most about this whole revelation. The rivalry ending might restore more "Anders" that is distinct from Justice, but if it's an Anders who would allow himself to be used as an instrument against mages in their Chantry prison, is that really Anders at all? 

When you put it that way... I'm coming down firmly on the side of "no". Anders in either incarnation would never allow that to happen. So maybe he would be more in control, but he'd still be broken, and he wouldn't be Anders.

[leggywillow]

Kawamura wrote...

Why can't we hold an intervention and get, like, a billion rivalry points there.

"Anders, we need to talk. We're your friends here and we really think you need to stop with this Justice thing."

I don't want to be lawful good. ._______. Or lawful jerky.

It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia has ruined interventions for me.  And seeing how dysfunctional Hawke's little gang can be, I can easily see it turning into It's Always Sunny, where everyone just starts shouting "INTERVENTION! INTERVENTION!"

Hawke: So how do we go about doing this? We ambush him, and just sorta berate him into being the guy we wanna be around?
Therapist: No, you certainly don't berate him. He needs to know you're coming from a place of love and concern.
Varric: No, too soft, we should come out with an iron fist and crush him into submission.
Fenris: And if we're taking that approach, you might want to be armed at this intervention.

Modifié par leggywillow, 25 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[DeaHamlet]

@leggywillow
HAHAHAHAHA. Awesome.

[nyxocity]

crotti wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I really think that it's better for Merrill and Anders if you do their rivalry paths, BUT I'm not really sure how to get Anders at full rival without either being a jerk or siding with templars all the time in sidequests. Most of the time, siding with templars feels wrong to me. I just want to smack him upside the head about the merging-with-Justice thing and the ends-justify-the-means violence thing. I'm generally with him on the "save innocent mages and kill blood mages" bits.

That's my problem, too. That, and the fact that he is so tortured during the rivalry romance that it becomes difficult to see how it is healthy for him OR for Hawke.

I think that's what breaks me the most about this whole revelation. The rivalry ending might restore more "Anders" that is distinct from Justice, but if it's an Anders who would allow himself to be used as an instrument against mages in their Chantry prison, is that really Anders at all? 

 No matter what you do... everything is wrong. That's not fair. >_<

(And I still believe that the friendship romance is better...)

That's this game, in a nutshell. I kind of don't like it. I didn't have a lot of fun playing it until getting to the final battles. And yet I do find it compelling enough to do a couple more playthroughs. It's complex and well-constructed, imo, but damn, it SUCKS.

DA3 better give us some chance of a "good" ending.

[Sialater]

Kolotosa wrote...

Sialater wrote...

<great points about Anders/Justice's relationship that I'm about to completely undermine for my own amusement>

ANDERS. YOU CAN'T CHANGE WHAT YOU DON'T ACKNOWLEDGE!!

*snerk*

[Kawamura]

Heh. Interventions with Anders end in cannibalism.

[heretica]

Am I late for the song sharing? I was listening to some Björk. This song reminds me of Anders and Hawke.

www.youtube.com/watch Björk - Joga

DA2, please, get out of my head. Thanks

-The managment.

[HolyJellyfish]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Anarya wrote...

I think I might have to play a jerky paladin type just to see the rivalmance but it'll still feel wrong.

That's not a bad idea. Mind if I borrow it? I started playing a jerk pro-templar mage and being mean to Anders hurttttt.

I'm replaying my canon friendmance with Ginger Hawke 2.0. it's nice to be nice to him no matter what it means in the end.

I'm playing a pro-mage M!Hawke Templar right now. Figured I'd friendmance him and be freeky.

There is a really really good fanfic / character study about a Templar Rivalmance M!Hawke. Its incredibly well written and justifies this Hawke really well.

Failsafe

[nyxocity]

DeaHamlet wrote...

And it's not like you can smooth it over like with Fenris... I mean he's gonna yell at me no matter what *sigh*, but I can still be interested in his story, listen to him, be nice to him... and we're rivals because omg I help mages and kill templars.
In order to get that templar ending you have to:
1. Pretty much be for mages to return to the circle or to make them tranquil (hello Feynriel, and yepperz Anders knows even if he's not there for that one sigh). Or kill mages.
2. Keep being mean to Anders antagonizing him all the time, questioning him, never a nice freaking conversation.
3. Side with templars (oh that made me feel so dirty)
4. Convince Anders to come atone for his crime by killing the very people on whom Vengeance/Justice dropped this war without their consent.

I cannot do it. Cannot. Not even for ****s and giggles. Just not.

Yeah, I can't do it either. It's so the opposite of what I believe in, and I don't do well with pure RPG playthroughs. My main concern was whether or not it might be better for Anders, despite what I or my characters might think. And now I'm deciding that no, it really isn't.

[nyxocity]

Kawamura wrote...

Heh. Interventions with Anders end in cannibalism.

 Too true!

[Threeparts]

Catt128 wrote...

Am I late for the song sharing? I was listening to some Björk. This song reminds me of Anders and Hawke.

www.youtube.com/watch Björk - Joga

DA2, please, get out of my head. Thanks

-The managment.

Added to the playlist, thanks for the suggestion!

I also added my own song for all those who had to execute the man they loved: Torch, by Alanis Morisette.

[leggywillow]

Kawamura wrote...

Heh. Interventions with Anders end in cannibalism.

Which reminds me another It's Always Sunny episode...

Anders: Cannibalism?  Racism?  Look, Justice, those decisions are better left to the suits in Washington.  We're just here to eat some dude.