Blast. I can't find a way to alter the rivalry scores manually. Oh, well. Guess I'll wait away, do personal headcanon that's a mix of the two paths, possibly finish Mass Effect one of these days, maybe get some studying done instead of soul searching.
The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274
Débuté par
SurelyForth
, mars 08 2011 02:29
Retour en haut
#6702
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:01
Anarya
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Catt128 wrote...
Am I late for the song sharing? I was listening to some Björk. This song reminds me of Anders and Hawke.
www.youtube.com/watch Björk - Joga
DA2, please, get out of my head. Thanks
-The managment.
I looooooooove that song! Always been one of my favorites of hers.
#6703
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:02
mellifera
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Threeparts wrote...
SurelyForth wrote...
But it doesn't change the fact that, at his core, Anders is a compassionate person. Unless him siding with the templars is an indication that Hawke can twist him as much as Vengeance, then it is...wrong. You're not saving him from himself in that situation, you're forcing him into doing something that he should never want or be able to do otherwise. His hands planted the bomb, even if Justice was at the controls, and it is the bombing that lead to the Rite being called. Unless he is just completely shattered to the core of his being, he should recognize this and, as Anders[/i], killing those that he [/i]condemned to death is a betrayal of pretty much everything he ever was.
Precisely, well put! Even if you convince him that Justice has hurt his cause and he needs to atone, I simply can't see how he could bring himself to do so by Anulling an entire Circle full of mages, down to the last man. Not that he should be reluctant just because they're mages, but because there are innocents [/i]in that tower. He would be killing them as an act of repentance for the crime that condemned them in the first place.
That's ****ed up[/i], man.
I know I'm late but all of this.
A world of no. A giant, massive VY Canis Majoris sized world of no. Bad Anders. BAD. *smacks nose with newspaper*
#6704
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:07
DeaHamlet
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My evil runthrough is being ruined by Anders' cuteness.
My Hawke is so nice and sympathetic and "whatever you say cute hunk you"... and then she goes and puts a knife at some guy's throat for just saying HI.
LOL
Cracks me up everytime.
My Hawke is so nice and sympathetic and "whatever you say cute hunk you"... and then she goes and puts a knife at some guy's throat for just saying HI.
LOL
Cracks me up everytime.
#6705
Guest_lamppostinwinter_*
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:08
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All this talk of Rival-mance is making me think. I'm more and more convinced that Rival-mancing is usually always the better decision in the long run. When friend-mancing you agree with everything, which just enables them and gets them even more stuck. It lets them continue to do stupid things without questioning their actions because Hawke is basically telling them that everything they do is right and letting them do what they want.
When you rival-mance you realize their flaws and call them out on them. Hawke tries to make them realize their issues, instead of just enabling them. By questioning them Hawke makes them think about what they are doing and they are able to realize their flaws and begin to fix them. Tough love lets them grow more as a person and they, and their relationship with Hawke, will be better for it in the long run.
Examples:
Merrill: Rival-mancing makes her quit blood magic and realize how naive she's been being vs Friendmance where you support her in making deals with demons to help her repair and mirror that is clearly no good and while she may give up on that she continues to think blood magic is no biggie.
Sebastian(If you can call that a romance): Rival-mancing makes him realize that abandoning an entire kingdom for a chaste, quiet life in the chantry is selfish and silly.
Isabella: I don't really know with her, I always let the Arishok kill her or she runs away. I can't look at her without wanting to punch her.
Anders: Rival-mancing convinces him that joining with Justice was wrong, and the only reason he blows up the chantry is because Justice FORCES him too, according to Hepler at least. He is finally able to regain some of himself and seperate what he wants from what Justice wants. If you friend-mance him he thinks joining with Justice was necessary and blows up the Chantry without being forced. He undoubtly will continue losing the battle to keep himself intact and go deeper into madness giving into to Justice further and further.
Fenris: If you Rival-mance him you try to convince him that revenge will not solve everything, he has to let go of his hate or he will never feel better. Also it makes him question his views on mages makes him realize his personal experinces are clouding his ideas on the situation and that magic isn't all bad.
Of course not everyone is going to have different opinions on which outcomes are more beneficial, but it's just my opinion on the matter.
So it's either friend-mance for a fluffy happy relationship where they continue to be broken or you rival-mance and get angst and a lot of sad-face, but the tough love lets them grow more as a person and they, and their relationship with Hawke, will be better for it in the long run.
When you rival-mance you realize their flaws and call them out on them. Hawke tries to make them realize their issues, instead of just enabling them. By questioning them Hawke makes them think about what they are doing and they are able to realize their flaws and begin to fix them. Tough love lets them grow more as a person and they, and their relationship with Hawke, will be better for it in the long run.
Examples:
Merrill: Rival-mancing makes her quit blood magic and realize how naive she's been being vs Friendmance where you support her in making deals with demons to help her repair and mirror that is clearly no good and while she may give up on that she continues to think blood magic is no biggie.
Sebastian(If you can call that a romance): Rival-mancing makes him realize that abandoning an entire kingdom for a chaste, quiet life in the chantry is selfish and silly.
Isabella: I don't really know with her, I always let the Arishok kill her or she runs away. I can't look at her without wanting to punch her.
Anders: Rival-mancing convinces him that joining with Justice was wrong, and the only reason he blows up the chantry is because Justice FORCES him too, according to Hepler at least. He is finally able to regain some of himself and seperate what he wants from what Justice wants. If you friend-mance him he thinks joining with Justice was necessary and blows up the Chantry without being forced. He undoubtly will continue losing the battle to keep himself intact and go deeper into madness giving into to Justice further and further.
Fenris: If you Rival-mance him you try to convince him that revenge will not solve everything, he has to let go of his hate or he will never feel better. Also it makes him question his views on mages makes him realize his personal experinces are clouding his ideas on the situation and that magic isn't all bad.
Of course not everyone is going to have different opinions on which outcomes are more beneficial, but it's just my opinion on the matter.
So it's either friend-mance for a fluffy happy relationship where they continue to be broken or you rival-mance and get angst and a lot of sad-face, but the tough love lets them grow more as a person and they, and their relationship with Hawke, will be better for it in the long run.
#6706
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:09
LastFadingSmile
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Threeparts wrote...
Added to the playlist, thanks for the suggestion!
I also added my own song for all those who had to execute the man they loved: Torch, by Alanis Morisette.
Nice one. I don't dig a lot of Alanis' stuff but that was really gorgeous. Thank you!
This is still my favourite Alanis song though. ;D
Hawke: My love, my love, my love, you love my lady lumps!
Anders: Whachya gonna do with all that junk your trunk?
Hawke: I'm gonna get you drunk, gonna get you love drunk off my humps!
Justice: LET ME OUT LET ME OUT LET ME OUT LET ME OUT.
Modifié par Kolotosa, 25 mars 2011 - 07:10 .
#6707
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:12
Kawamura
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Lamppostinwinter, I'm totally convinced that rivalry is usually better, but I just haven't found a way to do it without going against the things my characters have usually considered "good". For example, turning Feyrnial into the circle would not be good, even though it gets a lot of rivarly points. Supporting templars, not good (though wanting to avoid killing them unless needed, good). It's just been hard to find the points.
Hrrrrrm.
Hrrrrrm.
#6708
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:12
Miri1984
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@Lamppostinwinter I disagree entirely that the rivalmance with Anders keeps him more sane. And the only reason he WANTS something different is because on the rival path you've been telling him what YOU want rather than agreeing with what HE wants. IYKWIM? And it doesn't do any good, just makes him unhappy and a prisoner in his own body. I think the only proper conclusion to the rivalmance is to kill him. I wouldn't leave him alive in that state. Justice can go back to the fade and Anders can have peace, because I don't think rivaled Anders wants to live with what he's done.
#6709
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:13
tehluhlah
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Threeparts wrote...
Catt128 wrote...
Am I late for the song sharing? I was listening to some Björk. This song reminds me of Anders and Hawke.
www.youtube.com/watch Björk - Joga
DA2, please, get out of my head. Thanks
-The managment.
Added to the playlist, thanks for the suggestion!
I also added my own song for all those who had to execute the man they loved: Torch, by Alanis Morisette.
More fodder for the Anders playlist... Haunted, by Poe
The very end where the child's voice says "I wont cry. My heart will break before I cry. I will go mad." is especially fitting... and gives me shivers
#6710
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:14
DeaHamlet
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Excuse me, I'm rivalmancing Fenris and I am changing NONE of his opinions other than that mages are slaves too and that's bad. And you can convince him of that as a friend too.
If you choose the AGGRESSIVE choices, that's when you can try to convince people to change.
It's nothing to do with rivalmance.
Fenris still wants to chop off Danarius' head and I'm totally supporting him in that.
However, we don't see eye to eye about mages so we butt heads in that aspect. Eventually if he respects me enough, as a friend or lover or rival, he will listen to my reasons and he will side with me.
It's not necessary to make any impact on their world view with the rival romance. At all.
I don't know about Merrill, but I know for sure you can max out her rivalry while STILL giving her the shard and everything. You can choose to max rivalry by NOT helping her, true, but that's not the only route to rivalmance.
So your arguments that the rivalry is what makes them question and/or change is flawed.
It's disagreeing with them in conversation that does it. They can still be your rivals because they disagree with your actions at times.
Edit: spelling goes down when I rush. bad me.
If you choose the AGGRESSIVE choices, that's when you can try to convince people to change.
It's nothing to do with rivalmance.
Fenris still wants to chop off Danarius' head and I'm totally supporting him in that.
However, we don't see eye to eye about mages so we butt heads in that aspect. Eventually if he respects me enough, as a friend or lover or rival, he will listen to my reasons and he will side with me.
It's not necessary to make any impact on their world view with the rival romance. At all.
I don't know about Merrill, but I know for sure you can max out her rivalry while STILL giving her the shard and everything. You can choose to max rivalry by NOT helping her, true, but that's not the only route to rivalmance.
So your arguments that the rivalry is what makes them question and/or change is flawed.
It's disagreeing with them in conversation that does it. They can still be your rivals because they disagree with your actions at times.
Edit: spelling goes down when I rush. bad me.
Modifié par DeaHamlet, 25 mars 2011 - 07:17 .
#6711
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:21
heretica
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tehluhlah wrote...
Threeparts wrote...
Catt128 wrote...
Am I late for the song sharing? I was listening to some Björk. This song reminds me of Anders and Hawke.
www.youtube.com/watch Björk - Joga
DA2, please, get out of my head. Thanks
-The managment.
Added to the playlist, thanks for the suggestion!
I also added my own song for all those who had to execute the man they loved: Torch, by Alanis Morisette.
More fodder for the Anders playlist... Haunted, by Poe
The very end where the child's voice says "I wont cry. My heart will break before I cry. I will go mad." is especially fitting... and gives me shivers
Yay for playlist! Haha, you have no idea how good it feels to know that there are other people out there feeling such strong emotions because of a videogame character.
Btw, the link that I posted is not the whole song. (I listen to music via spotify, but I wanted to share the song with you so I searched for the youtube link.. and i posted the wrong one! go me)
www.youtube.com/watch
It's not a big deal, but it doesn't feel the same without the missing part.
Modifié par Catt128, 25 mars 2011 - 07:22 .
#6712
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:25
Raelis27
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OK, I'm a lurker here and I haven't even finished the game (and my presence in this thread proves that I don't mind spoilers), and I really need to understand one thing. I hope you guys will help me.
Does friednmancing Anders mean enabling him on his quest for vengeance, encouraging his "union" with Justice and being more or less OK with him blowing up the Chantry? Also, does rivalmancing him mean forcing him him on a path of "redemption" that includes slaughtering the very people he fought for?
Does any version of an Anders romance mean that Hawke will have to be OK with innocents dying, be it mages or the people that were in the Chantry? Please tell me it isn't so.
Does friednmancing Anders mean enabling him on his quest for vengeance, encouraging his "union" with Justice and being more or less OK with him blowing up the Chantry? Also, does rivalmancing him mean forcing him him on a path of "redemption" that includes slaughtering the very people he fought for?
Does any version of an Anders romance mean that Hawke will have to be OK with innocents dying, be it mages or the people that were in the Chantry? Please tell me it isn't so.
#6713
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:28
Threeparts
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The playlist is up to date for now: if anyone thinks of a suggestion during the next 12 hours, please PM it to me. The birds are tweeting and the sun is rising, and so I must go push some cats off my bed and get some sleep. Stay gold, fan thread!
#6714
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:30
nyxocity
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DeaHamlet wrote...
Excuse me, I'm rivalmancing Fenris and I am changing NONE of his opinions other than that mages are slaves too and that's bad. And you can convince him of that as a friend too.
If you choose the AGGRESSIVE choices, that's when you can try to convince people to change.
It's nothing to do with rivalmance.
Fenris still wants to chop off Danarius' head and I'm totally supporting him in that.
However, we don't see eye to eye about mages so we butt heads in that aspect. Eventually if he respects me enough, as a friend or lover or rival, he will listen to my reasons and he will side with me.
It's not necessary to make any impact on their world view with the rival romance. At all.
I don't know about Merrill, but I know for sure you can max out her rivalry while STILL giving her the shard and everything. You can choose to max rivalry by NOT helping her, true, but that's not the only route to rivalmance.
So your arguments that the rivalry is what makes them question and/or change is flawed.
It's disagreeing with them in conversation that does it. They can still be your rivals because they disagree with your actions at times.
Edit: spelling goes down when I rush. bad me.
So then, does the game give you the option to help the characters see some of the flaws in their thinking without being mean to them? Because that's not the only way it works--in fact, yelling at someone about how messed up they are generally has the opposite of the intended effect. If you judge someone, you release them from having to judge themselves. Embracing someone with love and acceptance while challenging them to think about things generally works far better. If the game allows for that, I'd be all in on some of the rivalmances.
#6715
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:30
Inzhuna
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Delurking because that comment by Hepler blew my mind. Anders admitted he was wrong on my playthrough, but he still won't come with my pro-templar Hawke. I think it's bugged. Is there any way we could bring this to the attention of Jennifer or some other developers?
There are a lot of good arguments here, some which I agree with and some with which I disagree, but I can't contribute right now because Anders is messing with my head.
There are a lot of good arguments here, some which I agree with and some with which I disagree, but I can't contribute right now because Anders is messing with my head.
#6716
Guest_lamppostinwinter_*
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:32
Guest_lamppostinwinter_*
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DeaHamlet wrote...
If you choose the AGGRESSIVE choices, that's when you can try to convince people to change.
It's nothing to do with rivalmance.
So your arguments that the rivalry is what makes them question and/or change is flawed.
It's disagreeing with them in conversation that does it. They can still be your rivals because they disagree with your actions at times.
I agree with the whole "they change because of what you say to them" thing. However, when you don't agree with them on a regular basis in conversation it generally leads to rivalry. It's true that you don't need to be a "rival" to change their mind and that actions that you make that would cause rivalry are not what changes them. It just happens to be that you usually end up being rivals with them if you disagree with them all the time in conversation. So I guess that's why I associated rivalry with changing them.
And with the Fenris thing, I guess it was just my reading of the situation, I was just trying to convince myself that I was changing his mind at least a little bit.
#6717
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:33
mellifera
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I'm just gonna pretend that after blowing up the chantry Justice was in such rapturous ecstasy he passed out from the over-stimulation for like, a couple of days. Then he woke up, killed everyone in a rage, left Anders' body in disgust and possessed Dog and ran off to go bite Templar crotches off.
#6718
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:35
Pseudo the Mustachioed
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yukidama wrote...
I'm just gonna pretend that after blowing up the chantry Justice was in such rapturous ecstasy he passed out from the over-stimulation for like, a couple of days. Then he woke up, killed everyone in a rage, left Anders' body in disgust and possessed Dog and ran off to go bite Templar crotches off.
...I think he'd manage to get a lot more accomplished with Dog, actually.
#6719
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:36
Anarya
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Raelis27 wrote...
OK, I'm a lurker here and I haven't even finished the game (and my presence in this thread proves that I don't mind spoilers), and I really need to understand one thing. I hope you guys will help me.
Does friednmancing Anders mean enabling him on his quest for vengeance, encouraging his "union" with Justice and being more or less OK with him blowing up the Chantry? Also, does rivalmancing him mean forcing him him on a path of "redemption" that includes slaughtering the very people he fought for?
Does any version of an Anders romance mean that Hawke will have to be OK with innocents dying, be it mages or the people that were in the Chantry? Please tell me it isn't so.
I've only done the friendmance so far, but no, friendmancing does not mean you're necessarily agreeing with him on everything. You can choose dialogue options that make it clear that you don't approve of certain things. My Hawke was VERY NOT OK with killing innocents and blowing up the Chantry.
#6720
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:36
mellifera
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Pseudocognition wrote...
yukidama wrote...
I'm just gonna pretend that after blowing up the chantry Justice was in such rapturous ecstasy he passed out from the over-stimulation for like, a couple of days. Then he woke up, killed everyone in a rage, left Anders' body in disgust and possessed Dog and ran off to go bite Templar crotches off.
...I think he'd manage to get a lot more accomplished with Dog, actually.
And it's not cannibalism with Dog! Win/win!
#6721
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:36
SurelyForth
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Raelis27 wrote...
OK, I'm a lurker here and I haven't even finished the game (and my presence in this thread proves that I don't mind spoilers), and I really need to understand one thing. I hope you guys will help me.
Does friednmancing Anders mean enabling him on his quest for vengeance, encouraging his "union" with Justice and being more or less OK with him blowing up the Chantry? Also, does rivalmancing him mean forcing him him on a path of "redemption" that includes slaughtering the very people he fought for?
Does any version of an Anders romance mean that Hawke will have to be OK with innocents dying, be it mages or the people that were in the Chantry? Please tell me it isn't so.
Friendmancing Anders is supporting him on his quest to help mages. You don't have to support anything vengeful at all to do so, and you can even encourage him to see that some templars are good and that the Grand Cleric might be someone who can be reasoned with.
Doing this, though, fosters a less contentious relationship with Justice so, when it comes time to blow up the Chantry (which I assume was Justice's plan) he agrees that it is the best move to make.
In the rivalmance, you side with the templars more and take a harder line with him in general. This causes him to push back at Hawke AND Justice. He wants to convince Hawke of his cause, but he also struggles more with Justice. So when Justice is all "let's blow up the Chantry!" Anders fights it back, Justice takes over and the Chantry gets blown up.
As a Friend, you cannot convince him to kill the mages. Apparently as a Rival, you can. I don't know if he sees the former situation as redemption, or just what he has to do with his second chance at life. As for a Rivaled Anders who will help annul the Circle, he says he sees it as redemption, but I can't wrap my head around that. I said in the other thread that his participation seems more like an act of self-hatred than redemption.
#6722
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:37
Herr Uhl
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Pseudocognition wrote...
yukidama wrote...
I'm just gonna pretend that after blowing up the chantry Justice was in such rapturous ecstasy he passed out from the over-stimulation for like, a couple of days. Then he woke up, killed everyone in a rage, left Anders' body in disgust and possessed Dog and ran off to go bite Templar crotches off.
...I think he'd manage to get a lot more accomplished with Dog, actually.
Dog would dominate that relationship completely.
#6723
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:37
crotti
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Pseudocognition wrote...
yukidama wrote...
I'm just gonna pretend that after blowing up the chantry Justice was in such rapturous ecstasy he passed out from the over-stimulation for like, a couple of days. Then he woke up, killed everyone in a rage, left Anders' body in disgust and possessed Dog and ran off to go bite Templar crotches off.
...I think he'd manage to get a lot more accomplished with Dog, actually.
#6724
Guest_lamppostinwinter_*
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:37
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yukidama wrote...
I'm just gonna pretend that after blowing up the chantry Justice was in such rapturous ecstasy he passed out from the over-stimulation for like, a couple of days. Then he woke up, killed everyone in a rage, left Anders' body in disgust and possessed Dog and ran off to go bite Templar crotches off.
This is now my canon.
Unless "killing everyone" includes Hawke, and that's why no one can find her. If that's the case then BAD JUSTICE!
#6725
Posté 25 mars 2011 - 07:40
nyxocity
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Raelis27 wrote...
OK, I'm a lurker here and I haven't even finished the game (and my presence in this thread proves that I don't mind spoilers), and I really need to understand one thing. I hope you guys will help me.
Does friednmancing Anders mean enabling him on his quest for vengeance, encouraging his "union" with Justice and being more or less OK with him blowing up the Chantry? Also, does rivalmancing him mean forcing him him on a path of "redemption" that includes slaughtering the very people he fought for?
Does any version of an Anders romance mean that Hawke will have to be OK with innocents dying, be it mages or the people that were in the Chantry? Please tell me it isn't so.
Nevermind, I think I got too specific. Other people answered better without being as spoilery.
Move along, nothing to see here
Modifié par thenyxie, 25 mars 2011 - 07:43 .
