57020 réponses à ce sujet

[mellifera]

lamppostinwinter wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I'm just gonna pretend that after blowing up the chantry Justice was in such rapturous ecstasy he passed out from the over-stimulation for like, a couple of days. Then he woke up, killed everyone in a rage, left Anders' body in disgust and possessed Dog and ran off to go bite Templar crotches off.

This is now my canon.

Unless "killing everyone" includes Hawke, and that's why no one can find her. If that's the case then BAD JUSTICE!

Yup. Justice made Anders save Hawke for last and take his sweet time eating him/her... and not in the sexy way. Then arranged his/her bones on the ground in the shape of a giant middle finger.

[Jennifer Brandes Hepler]

Hey guys -- some days back, someone posted a comment about having shown the Anders kiss scene to non-gamer friends and having them rush out to buy DA. I can't find it -- can someone point me to where that comment is?

[nenosronhir]

I agree with DeaHamlet - Fenris eventually learns to put aside his hatred with a Friendmance. You don't get the more dramatic "it tastes like ashes" speech, but he does express that it's left him feeling hollow, and Hawke still helps him to move along (though I romanced him, so I chose all the "you have me!" lines, but I imagine the Diplomacy lines are along the lines of supporting him - I didn't get him very high in rivalry/friendship on my first playthrough).

Yes, you can turn Merrill away from bloodmagic and the mirror if you go down her rivalry path, but in the end she is left with nothing - I haven't rivalmanced her yet, but as a rival I felt like I left her with nothing to hold onto; not Hawke's friendship (which is more like (s)mothering, with all the "I'm doing this for your own good!" speeches), not her people, nothing. Whether or not that's a good thing up to personal perspective.

I think both the friend and rivalmances with Anders have their own merits, and I honestly like both (though I prefer the friendmance). If my headcanon tacked on that removed Templar-siding Anders speech to the end of the rivalmance with the rewriting/reasoning Ryzaki posted previously, I'd probably like the rivalmance a lot more, haha.

And I haven't done more than fool around with Izzy yet (but I have a snarky warrior lined up for her!) But I think it's a little too presumtpuous to say one path is better for a character than another. 8<

[DeaHamlet]

It's just that with many of them you get plenty of rivalry without questioning if they are right or not (not isa).
Refusing to help fenris leads to him leaving btw
You can change Merrill but really what choice does she gave if you won't give her the tool or help her? It strikes me as manipulative.
They all begrudgingly agree to defer to your judgement because they respect you.
Merrill is foolish but she has a different perspective on demons... It's like the argument with the arishok

[DeaHamlet]

Arg I'll continue when I'm in front of a computer. Posting lengthy arguments on an iPhone is foolish sigh

[Raelis27]

SurelyForth wrote...

Friendmancing Anders is supporting him on his quest to help mages. You don't have to support anything vengeful at all to do so, and you can even encourage him to see that some templars are good and that the Grand Cleric might be someone who can be reasoned with.

Doing this, though, fosters a less contentious relationship with Justice so, when it comes time to blow up the Chantry (which I assume was Justice's plan) he agrees that it is the best move to make.

In the rivalmance, you side with the templars more and take a harder line with him in general. This causes him to push back at Hawke AND Justice. He wants to convince Hawke of his cause, but he also struggles more with Justice. So when Justice is all "let's blow up the Chantry!" Anders fights it back, Justice takes over and the Chantry gets blown up.

As a Friend, you cannot convince him to kill the mages. Apparently as a Rival, you can. I don't know if he sees the former situation as redemption, or just what he has to do with his second chance at life. As for a Rivaled Anders who will help annul the Circle, he says he sees it as redemption, but I can't wrap my head around that. I said in the other thread that his participation seems more like an act of self-hatred than redemption.

Thanks, SurelyForth. I absolutely agree with you that Anders helping annul the Circle is mind-boggling, and I cannot possibly see it as the atonement for the Chantry thing.  It gives me the impression that Anders thinks he has to atone for championing the mages in the first place, and that is just... unthinkable. I also kind of resent how the game backs this up by making most of the mages practitioners of blood magic so that you (and Anders) wouldn't feel too guilty.

But on the other hand, I am most definitely not OK with him blowing up the Chantry. And I do want him to feel guilt and remorse for this - not because I want him miserable, but because feeling remorse and fighting Justice would mean less chances he will ever repeat something like that in the future.

So is there absolutely no way to side with the mages and make Anders feel remorse for the Chantry? Is the rival path the only way to make him understand that what he did was horrible?

Modifié par Raelis27, 25 mars 2011 - 07:50 .

[Raelis27]

thenyxie wrote...
Nevermind, I think I got too specific. Other people answered better without being as spoilery.

Move along, nothing to see here

Oh come on, I'm really interested in what you have to say! I am so spoiled at this point that worrying about spoilers is pointless! I know pretty much all important things that happen in the game - and it's all because I had no patience and lurked at these forums before getting my hands on the game. It's my fault alone, but too late crying over spilt milk, I guess.

[Anarya]

nenosronhir wrote...



I agree with DeaHamlet - Fenris eventually learns to put aside his hatred with a Friendmance. You don't get the more dramatic "it tastes like ashes" speech, but he does express that it's left him feeling hollow, and Hawke still helps him to move along (though I romanced him, so I chose all the "you have me!" lines, but I imagine the Diplomacy lines are along the lines of supporting him - I didn't get him very high in rivalry/friendship on my first playthrough).

Yes, you can turn Merrill away from bloodmagic and the mirror if you go down her rivalry path, but in the end she is left with nothing - I haven't rivalmanced her yet, but as a rival I felt like I left her with nothing to hold onto; not Hawke's friendship (which is more like (s)mothering, with all the "I'm doing this for your own good!" speeches), not her people, nothing. Whether or not that's a good thing up to personal perspective.

I think both the friend and rivalmances with Anders have their own merits, and I honestly like both (though I prefer the friendmance). If my headcanon tacked on that removed Templar-siding Anders speech to the end of the rivalmance with the rewriting/reasoning Ryzaki posted previously, I'd probably like the rivalmance a lot more, haha.

And I haven't done more than fool around with Izzy yet (but I have a snarky warrior lined up for her!) But I think it's a little too presumtpuous to say one path is better for a character than another. 8<

I actually did the Fenris rivalmance while choosing all the diplomatic conversation options. The points came from quests instead. You get him to let go of his hatred either way.

With Merrill, she's left with nothing no matter which side you take. I usually encourage her to help the elves in the alienage. I had a rival relationship with her my first play and felt sure things would be different if I went the friend route, but it doesn't make that much of a difference. With the rival path, you get her to realize that it was her actions that caused the situation while a friend will tell her none of it is her fault (which feels wrong to me). Actually I think Merrill's quests are a good example of where more player agency would have been nice.

[SurelyForth]

Raelis27 wrote...
Thanks, SurelyForth. I absolutely agree with you that Anders helping annul the Circle is mind-boggling, and I cannot possibly see it as the atonement for the Chantry thing.  It gives me the impression that Anders thinks he has to atone for championing the mages in the first place, and that is just... unthinkable. I also kind of resent how the game backs this up by making most of the mages practitioners of blood magic so that you (and Anders) wouldn't feel too guilty.

But on the other hand, I ammost definitely not OK with him blowing up the Chantry. And I do want him to feel guilt and remorse for this - not because I want him miserable, but because feeling remorse and fighting Justice would mean less chances he will ever repeat something like that in the future.

So is there absolutely no way to side with the mages and make Anders feel remorse for the Chantry? Is the reival path the only way to make him understand that what he did was horrible?

I think he feels guilty for what he did with the Chantry. He opens the conversation after with "There is nothing you can say that I have not already said to myself." and he expects to die for what he did becuase that would be the just outcome.

[nenosronhir]

Woah, waitaminute, Anders siding with the Templars is actually in the game? *revelation from the other Anders crisis thread -blink* Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat. *mind officially blown*

Yeah, exactly. It's not Merrill making that choice, it's Hawke and Marethari (I think giving the tool to Hawke was EXTREMELY backhanded) making it for her, which sometimes works, and sometimes backfires - and in this case, it backfires either way, because of what Marethari does.

[DeaHamlet]

As a friend I convinced Merrill to help the elves in the alienage. It didnt sound to me at all like she had much interest in the mirror at the end. Not to speak of the fact that we ran off and didn't take that with us!

[Dunizel]

There is only one clear thing in all this mess. Go to hell, Sebastian!
But, he said just one right thing to Meredith. "Why are we discussing the Right of Annulment when we have the killer here?" Really, why? That's the reason I can't honestly side with the templars in that situation.

I've just decided I'll rivalmance with my male Warrior, just because with a female I woulnd't resist the fluffiness of the friendly romance.
Then we will see what will happen at the Gallows. But so far no one managed to have that scene...maybe it is bugged, or maybe it requires some very specific choices...
I think that it's not like he sides with the templars...he just wants to stand beside Hawke, because he understood he/she cares for him, and through a rivalmance he understood that Vengeance is pulling him around more than he woulld have liked. I was scared when he said that something he doesn't remember things...I think he is looking for redemption only at the eyes of Hawke, trying to believe that that is the right thing to do (even fenris does the same thing to an extent).  

It would make all more sense if Anders could accept to side with the templars after Orsine goes mad...it could be justified then.

Modifié par Dunizel, 25 mars 2011 - 07:59 .

[DeaHamlet]

And now my heart lies broken on the floor... Does it matter or am I just hung up over you?... And now my song is out of tune... Just like you....
(lyrics)
This is how I feel over the whole anders Templar crap

[SurelyForth]

Dunizel wrote...

There is only one clear thing in all this mess. Go to hell, Sebastian!
But, he said just one right thing to Meredith. "Why are we discussing the Right of Annulment when we have the killer here?" Really, why? That's the reason I can't honestly side with the templars in that situation.

I've just decided I'll rivalmance with my male Warrior, just because with a female I woulnd't resist the fluffiness of the friendly romance.
Then we will see what will happen at the Gallows. But so far no one managed to have that scene...maybe it is bugged, or maybe it requires some very specific choices...

It would make all more sense if Anders could accept to side with the templars after Orsine goes mad...it could be justified then.

But Orsino goes mad because of the Annulment. He tried to compromise with Meredith to save the Circle, and she refused him.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 25 mars 2011 - 08:01 .

[Inzhuna]

I couldn't agree more about Sebastian. He pisses me off to no end. 'If I was in the Chantry you wouldn't have been waffling!' Um what? None of my Hawkes care for you, chantry boy.

[nenosronhir]

@Anarya yeah, I wasn't saying he doesn't find peace with a rivalmance, I was responding to this;

lamppostinwinter wrote...
Fenris: If you Rival-mance him you try to convince him that revenge will not solve everything, he has to let go of his hate or he will never feel better. Also it makes him question his views on mages makes him realize his personal experinces are clouding his ideas on the situation and that magic isn't all bad.

With Merrill, if you friendpath her, at least she still knows Hawke has her back, kinda? Whereas she might think a rivalHawke is simply going to be all "I told you so." but again, I haven't done the romance on either side, and I rushed through my first playthrough where I went friendship, so my memory might be kinda muddled.

Also I don't type fast enough to keep up with this thread, apologies for replies that are laaaaate.

[mellifera]

Inzhuna wrote...

I couldn't agree more about Sebastian. He pisses me off to no end. 'If I was in the Chantry you wouldn't have been waffling!' Um what? None of my Hawkes care for you, chantry boy.

Lol, yeah. I was just like "Dude, we're firmly neutral and I only talked to you like, 3 times in 7 years. Who are you again?"

[Raelis27]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think he feels guilty for what he did with the Chantry. He opens the conversation after with "There is nothing you can say that I have not already said to myself." and he expects to die for what he did becuase that would be the just outcome.

But he's still conviced that it was the right thing to do, right? So he is remorseless in a way. He may do something like that in the future for the cause. That's what troubles me. I don't want to encourage this way of thinking, but I also don't want to side with the Templars and make Anders a monstrous hypocrite who only cares about his so-called redemption and will turn on the people he championed. It feels as if the game forces me to encourage really nasty things in both cases.

It's not a compelling moral dilemma for me because it seems I can't roleplay my Hawke the way  want him to be - a mage supporter who most definitely does not support what Anders did and thinks Anders should own up to that and fight Justice's influence. Well, there's the option of killing Anders, but it doesn't appeal to me in the least.

[Dunizel]

SurelyForth wrote...

But Orsino goes mad because of the Annulment. Orsino tried to compromise with Meredith to save the Circle, and she refused him.

I know, even though I still though he overdid it. I sided with him, supported him all the way through...then he turns into an abomination with necromancy in front of my eyes. And then I had to defeat him. It didn't make sense in that situation,  he wasn't even in front of Meredith, a bunch of templars just died....we weren't dead...
It was the only thing I didn't like of the epilogue...
Meredith, I understand she had to die either way...but ordino...I was sad, I liked him...

Modifié par Dunizel, 25 mars 2011 - 08:04 .

[DragonRacer]

leggywillow wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Heh. Interventions with Anders end in cannibalism.

Which reminds me another It's Always Sunny episode...

Anders: Cannibalism?  Racism?  Look, Justice, those decisions are better left to the suits in Washington.  We're just here to eat some dude.

First off, totally  you, leggy!

Secondly, all that Sunny talk makes me think of an AU for Act 1. Instead of Hawke running around with Varric trying to raise money for the Deep Roads Expedition, it's a spin-off of the "Dennis & Dee Go On Welfare" episode...

Varric & Hawke (sitting on front steps of The Hanged Man with ale mugs & a boombox, singing): "You... you got what I need... but you say 'he's just a friend'... but you say 'he's just a friend'..."

Anders (walks up to them): "Are... are you two drunk?!"

Varric & Hawke look up at him and grin cheekily, obviously hammered.

Anders: "It's nine-o-clock in the morning!"

Varric reaches over a turns the boombox up. He and Hawke resume singing "Just A Friend" even louder. Anders walks off in disgust.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Hey guys -- some days back, someone posted a comment about having shown the Anders kiss scene to non-gamer friends and having them rush out to buy DA. I can't find it -- can someone point me to where that comment is?

I remember the post but I haven't got a clue where it might be. Sorry.

Anyone else?

[ekurian]

...am I missing something here- Anders ATE someone?

o-0

[Anarya]

Raelis27 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

I think he feels guilty for what he did with the Chantry. He opens the conversation after with "There is nothing you can say that I have not already said to myself." and he expects to die for what he did becuase that would be the just outcome.

But he's still conviced that it was the right thing to do, right? So he is remorseless in a way. He may do something like that in the future for the cause. That's what troubles me. I don't want to encourage this way of thinking, but I also don't want to side with the Templars and make Anders a monstrous hypocrite who only cares about his so-called redemption and will turn on the people he championed. It feels as if the game forces me to encourage really nasty things in both cases.

It's not a compelling moral dilemma for me because it seems I can't roleplay my Hawke the way  want him to be - a mage supporter who most definitely does not support what Anders did and thinks Anders should own up to that and fight Justice's influence. Well, there's the option of killing Anders, but it doesn't appeal to me in the least.

You don't have to kill him, you can tell him to go away if you want.

[Dunizel]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Hey guys -- some days back, someone posted a comment about having shown the Anders kiss scene to non-gamer friends and having them rush out to buy DA. I can't find it -- can someone point me to where that comment is?

I fear your post was flooded by the "Anders siding with the templars" debate xD
I will try to look into this but....

Really, what choices we have to do to achieve this outcome? Someone tried with a rivalmance at 100 and still didn't work....  

[Eydris Ivo]

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

Hey guys -- some days back, someone posted a comment about having shown the Anders kiss scene to non-gamer friends and having them rush out to buy DA. I can't find it -- can someone point me to where that comment is?

Hi Jennifer,

That was me. I had about 5 people who saw that and were so impressed that stuff like that even existed in video games. They loved the idea of an emotional story and were blown away by the kiss. For obvious reasons

And yes, off they went to pick up the game and/or confiscate their husbands/SO's computer.