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[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

There's someone who claims they did, and they didn't romance Anders. Could it be getting bugged because of romance flags?

*would hope that isn't a bug* *knows it is*

Honestly, what is the appeal in romancing someone that is so broken and malleable that he's willing to abandon his deeply held convictions to satiate a madwoman's paranoia? Or am I fairly alone in thinking that it's an incredibly ****ed up, and not in a good way, direction to take him in?

Anders is a ***** up character to start with. 

Frankly I think alot of his "strong" convictions were only because of Justice. He believed in them sure but he would've never gone so far without Justice. Once his views on Justice begins to crumble so does everything else. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 08:42 .

[Inzhuna]

Possibly, but I'd like to see this in my game, even if I don't go with it in the end. I really really hate bugs.
Personally I think Anders is being a hypocrite either way (I still love him but it's horrible what he does, despite of siding with Mages or Templars).

[Raelis27]

SurelyForth wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

There's someone who claims they did, and they didn't romance Anders. Could it be getting bugged because of romance flags?

*would hope that isn't a bug* *knows it is*

Honestly, what is the appeal in romancing someone that is so broken and malleable that he's willing to abandon his deeply held convictions to satiate a madwoman's paranoia? Or am I fairly alone in thinking that it's an incredibly ****ed up, and not in a good way, direction to take him in?

well, I agree with you. It's hypocrisy of the worst sort. And if Andres wants to atone by killing fellow mages, that means he thinks that standing up for them was the wrong thing to do from the beginning. Is this really the real Anders? I seriously doubt that. The pro-Templar Anders may have regained some control over himself, but he is so broken and perverted, it doesn't really matter. Real Anders would never agree to kill mages. Never.

[Ryzaki]

Is the Anders who is single focused on a cause to the extent of nothing else the real Anders? Especially one that is merged with a spirit?

Frankly the talk of "real" Anders rubs me the wrong way. Either Anders is Anders. He just made different decisions. You aren't suddenly fake because you make a decision that goes against something you did before .

A hypocrite yes. But fake? No.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 08:46 .

[Inzhuna]

Raelis, I don't think 'real' Anders exists by the end of the game anymore.

[greatbriton]

Ryzaki wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

There's someone who claims they did, and they didn't romance Anders. Could it be getting bugged because of romance flags?

*would hope that isn't a bug* *knows it is*

Honestly, what is the appeal in romancing someone that is so broken and malleable that he's willing to abandon his deeply held convictions to satiate a madwoman's paranoia? Or am I fairly alone in thinking that it's an incredibly ****ed up, and not in a good way, direction to take him in?

Anders is a ***** up character to start with. 

Frankly I think alot of his "strong" convictions were only because of Justice. He believed in them sure but he would've never gone so far without Justice. Once his views on Justice begins to crumble so does everything else. 

It was Justice who first put the idea of actually fighting his opression into his mind.  Before Justice Anders was happy to just live and hide from the Templars and the Circle.  He even references the conversation he had with Justice about it in game when talking to Isabela.  He then says he sometimes misses being that selfish.

[Raelis27]

No, I don't think so. But I remember the real Anders (in Awakening) being angry over the injustices that the mages have suffered. I don't believe he would ever think turning on them and killing them would lead to any sort of redemption.

The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents.

[nyxocity]

Raelis27 wrote...

thenyxie wrote...

Oh, it wasn't that big a deal! I just gave you the basic tree branch options you'd have from the point the Chantry blows to the end of dealing with Anders in the aftermath. It's very specific though, and I wasn't sure you wanted to be that spoiled Do you want to be that spoiled? The others basically summed wihtout getting too specific. With friendmance you can definitely disapprove, and he doesn't feel great about what he's done, he views it has something he had to do. Rivalmance kind of tears him and Justice apart, so Justice takes the blame for blowing the Chantry, but not much else changes because the ending to get him to join the Templars seems to be bugged. You can definitely chastise him, though.

Heh. No, I guess I don't want to be that spoiled! Thanks for being considerate! I am glad that there's an option to chastise him on the Friendship path, but I'm angry that encouraging him to fight Justice is only reserved for those who rival him. Why is there no option to support his cause and not be completely OK with his being an abomination?

I'm also interested in the way rivalmance is equaled to tough love. Is it true? Reading the forums, I got the impression rivalmace was not so much making Anders face his flaws and fight them, but more about disagreeing with him about mages and templars. To me that's very different things. I do want to call hikm out on some things, but at the same time I am passionately pro-mage.

t's not even Anders that bugs me, it's the fact that I can't roleplay Hawke the way I want. I'm so uncomfortable with both paths at the moment I honestly don't know what to do. I don't want to romance anyone else, though. To me Anders is the most interesting and appealing character in this game.

Someone else might be able to answer better than me since having seen and heard about some of the rivalmance stuff I know there's no way I could do it. But from what I've read, it sounds like it's tough to impossible to pull off a rivalmance and support the mages fully.

Really, I think it's all a matter of what feels right to you, because in this game there's no clear "right" and "wrong". I squirmed in my chair over every single decision I had to make, and the game is designed to make you feel that. Pretty much you have this kind of sucky choice, and that kind of sucky choice, and neither one is going to make things "right". It's all shades of gray. Me, I'm definitely 100% pro-mage, personally, living like slaves isn't the answer as far as I'm concerned, and yet I agonized over my decisions throughout the game again and again.

But there's no doubt in my mind that Anders is the most interesting and compelling character in the game I romanced him my first time through and now everyone else seems dull to me by comparison.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

nodice wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

Because he really, really looks like my husband... 

You shouldn't say these kinds of things here 

My spouse looks like Alistair except with blue eyes. He's English too(I'm American). His voice isn't as whiny sounding though. Kinda leans more to sounding a bit between Anders and Alistair. I just close my eyes and let the mood take me.

[Inzhuna]

"The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents."

Exactly, and we cannot bring that Anders back no matter what we do.

[Ryzaki]

greatbriton wrote...

It was Justice who first put the idea of actually fighting his opression into his mind.  Before Justice Anders was happy to just live and hide from the Templars and the Circle.  He even references the conversation he had with Justice about it in game when talking to Isabela.  He then says he sometimes misses being that selfish.

True. He and Justice warped each other beyond belief. 

The "real" Anders doesn't exist by the time we meet him anymore. Frankly I think they're all Anders just different facets. Some people may prefer different facets over each other. 

I frankly like the one that realizes Vengeance needs to be stopped. I just wish I coud get it with the rivalry path siding with the mages. <_<

[Raelis27]

Inzhuna wrote...

Raelis, I don't think 'real' Anders exists by the end of the game anymore.

I don't believe he exists either. By "real Anders" I meant the one who wasn't corrupted by Vengeance. The Anders who seeks redemption by helping annul the Circle is supposedly not controlled by Vengeance anymore, right? So he's more himself, apparently.

[Ryzaki]

Inzhuna wrote...

"The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents."

Exactly, and we cannot bring that Anders back no matter what we do.

Indeed. 

Rivarly Anders kills innocents by culling the circle. 

Friendship anders kills innocents by blowing up the Chantry.

Either way he's gone. 

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

There's someone who claims they did, and they didn't romance Anders. Could it be getting bugged because of romance flags?

*would hope that isn't a bug* *knows it is*

Honestly, what is the appeal in romancing someone that is so broken and malleable that he's willing to abandon his deeply held convictions to satiate a madwoman's paranoia? Or am I fairly alone in thinking that it's an incredibly ****ed up, and not in a good way, direction to take him in?

Anders is a ***** up character to start with. 

Frankly I think alot of his "strong" convictions were only because of Justice. He believed in them sure but he would've never gone so far without Justice. Once his views on Justice begins to crumble so does everything else. 

I think his strong convictions are absolutely his own. The difference between Awakening Anders and the Anders that took on Justice is that Awakening Anders was more concerned with his own freedom than anyone elses. He didn't fight the system then because it was better, from a perspective of self-preservation, to just enjoy what he managed for himself. He still loathed the Chantry, he still hated templars and how mages were viewed and treated. It comes across quite clearly, there are points in Awakening where even if you agree with him gets snarly.

And the fact that he was willing to take Justice in the first place means that he believed in his cause.

[Kawamura]

I always thought Anders had an interesting idea of what counted as an innocent.

I mean, he didn't mind seeing Biff and them all die, when those are people that are probably (in another perspective) innocent.

[mellifera]

Ryzaki wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

"The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents."

Exactly, and we cannot bring that Anders back no matter what we do.

Indeed. 

Rivarly Anders kills innocents by culling the circle. 

Friendship anders kills innocents by blowing up the Chantry.

Either way he's gone. 

Blowing up the Chantry THEN helping you help Meredith cull the Circle. That action doesn't go away.

[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote..
I think his strong convictions are absolutely his own. The difference between Awakening Anders and the Anders that took on Justice is that Awakening Anders was more concerned with his own freedom than anyone elses. He didn't fight the system then because it was better, from a perspective of self-preservation, to just enjoy what he managed for himself. He still loathed the Chantry, he still hated templars and how mages were viewed and treated. It comes across quite clearly, there are points in Awakening where even if you agree with him gets snarly.

And the fact that he was willing to take Justice in the first place means that he believed in his cause.

I don't. I think he believes in them sure. But actually doing the things he did? Blowing up the Chantry, risking life and limb for other mages? I see that as Justice. Awakening Anders wasn't wlling to go that far. 

He still loaths the Chantry sure but he doesn't do anything to them as long as he's free. 

He believed in the cause sure but he was also trying to help a friend. Frankly I think the decision to merge with Justice was far more about friendship than any cause. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[Ryzaki]

yukidama wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

"The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents."

Exactly, and we cannot bring that Anders back no matter what we do.

Indeed. 

Rivarly Anders kills innocents by culling the circle. 

Friendship anders kills innocents by blowing up the Chantry.

Either way he's gone. 

Blowing up the Chantry THEN helping you help Meredith cull the Circle. That action doesn't go away.

Vengeance blows up Chantry in Rivalry path. 

He tries to undo it and Vengeance takes over him preventing it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 08:54 .

[Raelis27]

I think he became a murdering extremist because of Justice. I think the convictions were all his own.

[Kawamura]

yukidama wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

"The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents."

Exactly, and we cannot bring that Anders back no matter what we do.

Indeed. 

Rivarly Anders kills innocents by culling the circle. 

Friendship anders kills innocents by blowing up the Chantry.

Either way he's gone. 

Blowing up the Chantry THEN helping you help Meredith cull the Circle. That action doesn't go away.

Yeeeah.

At least fighting the Templars is more of a "well, ****, Anders put us in this place, now we're fighting for survival, not to actively kill."

Least, that's how I always saw it.

[greatbriton]

SurelyForth wrote..


He believed in the cause sure but he was also trying to help a friend. Frankly I think the decision to merge with Justice was far more about friendship than any cause. 

That's how I see it.  When Anders talks about it seems that he was concerned for Justice and thought it would just be better for him to be inside him instead of some corpse or something.  I don't think he quite knew what he was getting himself into or wanted to get himself into.

[nenosronhir]

Ryzaki wrote...

True. He and Justice warped each other beyond belief. 

The "real" Anders doesn't exist by the time we meet him anymore. Frankly I think they're all Anders just different facets. Some people may prefer different facets over each other. 

I frankly like the one that realizes Vengeance needs to be stopped. I just wish I coud get it with the rivalry path siding with the mages. <_<

I would love the Rivalry path a whole bunch more with this, also. As it stands, that Templar ending just wrenches my gut completely the wrong way. As though Hawke and Justice and everything up until this point have torn everything he is down to the roots and there's just nothing left of him and he's just completely lost himself and fhdajklfhdjklsa 'scuse me, I'll be over here in this corner sobbing.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

I have a save where I killed Leliana that I just imported. She regrew her head. =|

I remember someone else saying they killed Zevran and yet he appears in a cameo.

[Kawamura]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

I have a save where I killed Leliana that I just imported. She regrew her head. =|

I remember someone else saying they killed Zevran and yet he appears in a cameo.

Zev with a plot shield? My Warden don't mind that none.

(I think it was just a bug, though, he's not supposed to show up.)

[sabreene]

SurelyForth wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

There's someone who claims they did, and they didn't romance Anders. Could it be getting bugged because of romance flags?

*would hope that isn't a bug* *knows it is*

Honestly, what is the appeal in romancing someone that is so broken and malleable that he's willing to abandon his deeply held convictions to satiate a madwoman's paranoia? Or am I fairly alone in thinking that it's an incredibly ****ed up, and not in a good way, direction to take him in?

Anders is a ***** up character to start with. 

Frankly I think alot of his "strong" convictions were only because of Justice. He believed in them sure but he would've never gone so far without Justice. Once his views on Justice begins to crumble so does everything else. 

I think his strong convictions are absolutely his own. The difference between Awakening Anders and the Anders that took on Justice is that Awakening Anders was more concerned with his own freedom than anyone elses. He didn't fight the system then because it was better, from a perspective of self-preservation, to just enjoy what he managed for himself. He still loathed the Chantry, he still hated templars and how mages were viewed and treated. It comes across quite clearly, there are points in Awakening where even if you agree with him gets snarly.

And the fact that he was willing to take Justice in the first place means that he believed in his cause.

Just popping on to say... THIS.

I was trying to think of how to word it, but Surely got there before me. And said it better.