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[Raelis27]

Ryzaki wrote...


Frankly the talk of "real" Anders rubs me the wrong way. Either Anders is Anders. He just made different decisions. You aren't suddenly fake because you make a decision that goes against something you did before .

 

Well, you said yourself in your other posts that he was warped by Vengeance and that it's a good thing when he realizes that and tries to free himself from the demon.  By the 'real" Anders I mean the one who isn't influenced by Justice. So yeah, I think the Anders that's brainwashed by Justice is kind of "fake". well, not exactly fake, but he does things that Justice -free Anders would never have considered.

Modifié par Raelis27, 25 mars 2011 - 08:58 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

[epic gif]

I think I love you.

[nyxocity]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

CrookedAsylum wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

You know what I just realized? I imported a save where Cullen went crazy in the epilogue and killed several apprentices...what the hell is he doing as Knight-Captain? 

I have a save where I killed Leliana that I just imported. She regrew her head. =|

I remember someone else saying they killed Zevran and yet he appears in a cameo.

Hee! Now if Jay would just flashy-thingie away my memory of that Templar ending.

[greatbriton]

I know I will never see Anders blowing up the Chantry as a full Anders act.  It was definitely influenced by Justice if not completely Justice.

I played Awakening after I played my first DA2 playthrough and when I made the decision to burn and leave Amaranthine.  Anders was apalled that I would kill innocent people.  Yes, they weren't a part of an organization that helps oppress people and yes, you can kind of change his mind if you keep talking.  But the initial disgust at the idea makes me believe that Anders on his own, even if he decided to take on the cause of Mages without Justice, would have never blew up the Chantry like he did.   Not without Justice's influence.

[Ryzaki]

Raelis27 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


Frankly the talk of "real" Anders rubs me the wrong way. Either Anders is Anders. He just made different decisions. You aren't suddenly fake because you make a decision that goes against something you did before .

 

Well, you said yourself in your other posts that he was warped by Vengeance and that it's a good thing when he realizes that and tries to free himself from the demon.  By the 'real" Anders  mean the one who isn't influenced by Justice. So yeah, I kind of think the Anders that's brainwashed by Justice is "fake". well, not exactly fake, but he does things that Justice -free Anders would never have considered.

Yeah but I don't think that makes him any less real. I don't know the word fake just rubs me the wrong way. 

ah yeah like blowing up the Chantry. I don't think Anders would've saw that as the right way to go without Justice. 

[Inzhuna]

If I jump to this ending through console, will it screw up my playthrough?

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

SurelyForth wrote..
I think his strong convictions are absolutely his own. The difference between Awakening Anders and the Anders that took on Justice is that Awakening Anders was more concerned with his own freedom than anyone elses. He didn't fight the system then because it was better, from a perspective of self-preservation, to just enjoy what he managed for himself. He still loathed the Chantry, he still hated templars and how mages were viewed and treated. It comes across quite clearly, there are points in Awakening where even if you agree with him gets snarly.

And the fact that he was willing to take Justice in the first place means that he believed in his cause.

I don't. I think he believes in them sure. But actually doig the things he did? Blowing up the Chantry, risking life and limb fr other mages? I see that as Justice. Awakening Anders cared about no one but himself. 

He still loaths the Chantry sure but he doesn't do anything to them as long as he's free. 

He believed in the cause sure but he was also trying to help a friend. Frankly I think the decision to merge with Justice was far more about friendship than any cause. 

Yeah, that's not true at all. Anders comes back to help the Warden if you send him away. Anders has an amulet he received from a Bann who he saved during one of his escape attempts, despite knowing he might be caught if he helped. Anders pleaded with the Warden to intervene with Velanna before she killed more people and spoke up for the people of Amaranthine.

Anders cares, but he wasn't willing to take on THE BIGGEST ORGANIZATION IN THEDAS because that idea is insanity and doing so would probably net him nothing and lose him everything. That's self-preservation, which is different from utter selfishness.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Pseudocognition wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

[epic gif]

I think I love you.

I....ah.....

[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote...

Yeah, that's not true at all. Anders comes back to help the Warden if you send him away. Anders has an amulet he received from a Bann who he saved during one of his escape attempts, despite knowing he might be caught if he helped. Anders pleaded with the Warden to intervene with Velanna before she killed more people and spoke up for the people of Amaranthine.

Anders cares, but he wasn't willing to take on THE BIGGEST ORGANIZATION IN THEDAS because that idea is insanity and doing so would probably net him nothing and lose him everything. That's self-preservation, which is different from utter selfishness.

I know I edited it that after thinking on it for a while. 

Exactly and he wasn't willing to blow up Chantries with innocent people who had nothing to do with anything inside. That's Justice. 

He also wasn't going to kill a young mage girl just because she called Justice a "demon". 

And once again taking on the biggest organization in Thedas has changed how exactly? It hasn't. It is still the most powerful organization in Thedas the only thing that's changed is him merging with Justice. 

He even says "things that used to make me angry...they now bring him out and he's no longer my friend Jusice but a spirit of Vengeance." (Paraphrasing). 

This just makes me think sure it would've made him angry but he wouldn't have intervined in alot of things if not for Justice. And I highly doubt Awakening Anders would've even gone to Kirkwall in the first place. 

Frankly though this is a horrible bug. I wondered why my Rivalrymance felt so flat at the ending. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 09:12 .

[Inzhuna]

On a lighter note, Ryzaki's post made me remember: I ADORE how Adam Howden pronounces the word: 'anger', You don't want to know how many times I replayed that conversation where he says: 'I guess I had too much anger', 'But my anger...' I don't know what it is about the way he says that world but it just gets me.

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...


And once again taking on the biggest organization in Thedas has changed how exactly? It hasn't. It is still the most powerful organization in Thedas the only thing that's changed is him merging with Justice. 

What changed was his situation. It seems like the impetus for him finally agreeing to Justice was the Wardens turning against him, and by him having a templar assigned to him even though he should have been, by all rights, free from such oversight. It made him realize just how second-class he was, that even in this organization of outcasts he was less than. Even with all the good he'd done, he was still something to be watched and feared.

So self-preservation became meaningless, because he realized that the freedom that he thought he'd gained was always going to be temporary. The only way for him to ensure that he himself could be free was for all mages to be free and, to do something THAT huge, he could not act alone. So...Justice.

[mellifera]

Ryzaki wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Yeah, that's not true at all. Anders comes back to help the Warden if you send him away. Anders has an amulet he received from a Bann who he saved during one of his escape attempts, despite knowing he might be caught if he helped. Anders pleaded with the Warden to intervene with Velanna before she killed more people and spoke up for the people of Amaranthine.

Anders cares, but he wasn't willing to take on THE BIGGEST ORGANIZATION IN THEDAS because that idea is insanity and doing so would probably net him nothing and lose him everything. That's self-preservation, which is different from utter selfishness.

I know I edited it that after thinking on it for a while. 

Exactly and he wasn't willing to blow up Chantries with innocent people who had nothing to do with anything inside. That's Justice. 

He also wasn't going to kill a young mage girl just because she called Justice a "demon". 

And once again taking on the biggest organization in Thedas has changed how exactly? It hasn't. It is still the most powerful organization in Thedas the only thing that's changed is him merging with Justice. 

He even says "things that used to make me angry...they now bring him out and he's no longer my friend Jusice but a spirit of Vengeance." (Paraphrasing). 

This just makes me think sure it would've made him angry but he wouldn't have intervined in alot of things if not for Justice. And I highly doubt Awakening Anders would've even gone to Kirkwall in the first place. 

Frankly though this is a horrible bug. I wondered why my Rivalrymance felt so flat at the ending. 

Isn't the bug is irrelevant unless you were going to side with the templars, which it seems like you weren't?

Frankly, I wouldn't side with the templars just to get this dialogue if I go down the rivalry path with him, the actions that lead up to getting it breaks the character for me :/

[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote...

What changed was his situation. It seems like the impetus for him finally agreeing to Justice was the Wardens turning against him, and by him having a templar assigned to him even though he should have been, by all rights, free from such oversight. It made him realize just how second-class he was, that even in this organization of outcasts he was less than. Even with all the good he'd done, he was still something to be watched and feared.

Good lord do I hate that betrayal. My Wardens would've never allowed that crap. They just vanish off the face of the planet for some reason thogh.  

So self-preservation became meaningless, because he realized that the freedom that he thought he'd gained was always going to be temporary. The only way for him to ensure that he himself could be free was for all mages to be free and, to do something THAT huge, he could not act alone. So...Justice.

 

I don't think so. He runs away from the circle several times and shows no "I'm always gonna be a prisoner" attitude then. 

Justice to me was far more about friendship than trying to free all mages. Maybe it was in his mind but he would've never gone to the extremes that Justice did. It wasn't driving him like it does Justice. It wasn't "all that was to him." (which frankly disturbs me and is why I can't stand the friendship path and hate that speech on my rivarlymance0. 

[Ryzaki]

yukidama wrote...
Isn't the bug is irrelevant unless you were going to side with the templars, which it seems like you weren't?

Frankly, I wouldn't side with the templars just to get this dialogue if I go down the rivalry path with him, the actions that lead up to getting it breaks the character for me :/

Still sucks. It is a horrible bug I would've broken character and sided with the templars to get it. (Though frankly it should've been available on rivalry sideperiod not just templars). 

But bah. Stupid bugs. >_> 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 09:22 .

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

"The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents."

Exactly, and we cannot bring that Anders back no matter what we do.

Indeed. 

Rivarly Anders kills innocents by culling the circle. 

Friendship anders kills innocents by blowing up the Chantry.

Either way he's gone. 

Blowing up the Chantry THEN helping you help Meredith cull the Circle. That action doesn't go away.

Vengeance blows up Chantry in Rivalry path. 

He tries to undo it and Vengeance takes over him preventing it. 

And frankly, there are innocent Templars.  They may have chosen to become them, but they are acting on a conviction that they've been taught all their lives is correct.  Some thought mages needed to be protected.  Some thought they needed to be controlled.  Not every Templar hates mages.

[LT123]

I wonder what the timing is for the Warden-Commander (Hero of Ferelden or Orlesian Warden) leaving Vigil's Keep. Anders speaks fondly the Hero if you did Awakening-not sure what he says if you didn't import a Warden who did it- ("I had a friend like you once who got me into all sorts of trouble") and he must have merged with Justice fairly soon after Awakening for him to be in Kirkwall during Hawke's second year there. Did the WC just ditch the keep and run off into the blue just after Awakening?

My Dalish WC would rage so much at whatever idiot was in charge when they decided to have a templar watch Anders and take Ser Pounce-a-lot. She gave Anders that cat, dang it.

What does Anders say about sparing the Architect? I remember Nate being for it and Sigrun calling it a stupid idea.

[mellifera]

I wasn't arguing over who did it, I was saying that it still happens. I'm not saying templars are all eeeeevil, either.

But Justice/Vengeance/Whatever is conspicuously absent at that point, when he was strong enough to assume direct control and force Anders to set up a bomb in a church. Does he think it is just for Anders to then work for the very people they spent all that time raging against, then? Or does the whole "Anders is a prisoner in his own body" issue get magically resolved after that?

EDIT: This is a question not arguing which path is better or makes more sense. Just clarifying.

Modifié par yukidama, 25 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...

And frankly, there are innocent Templars.  They may have chosen to become them, but they are acting on a conviction that they've been taught all their lives is correct.  Some thought mages needed to be protected.  Some thought they needed to be controlled.  Not every Templar hates mages.

Very true. 
They're forced on drugs, become dependant and some have no other path to follow. (Alistair dodged a bullet with Duncan). 

Some of them are jerks but the same can be said of mages. 

I just wish Cullen had spoken up against Meredith's insanity earlier. 

[Sialater]

LT123 wrote...

I wonder what the timing is for the Warden-Commander (Hero of Ferelden or Orlesian Warden) leaving Vigil's Keep. Anders speaks fondly the Hero if you did Awakening-not sure what he says if you didn't import a Warden who did it- ("I had a friend like you once who got me into all sorts of trouble") and he must have merged with Justice fairly soon after Awakening for him to be in Kirkwall during Hawke's second year there. Did the WC just ditch the keep and run off into the blue just after Awakening?

My Dalish WC would rage so much at whatever idiot was in charge when they decided to have a templar watch Anders and take Ser Pounce-a-lot. She gave Anders that cat, dang it.

What does Anders say about sparing the Architect? I remember Nate being for it and Sigrun calling it a stupid idea.

Well, Alistair was leaving Kirkwall to meet my Warden, and that happens in Act 3, so.. she's not disappeared yet.  How long before the end events of DA2 and Varric's questioning, anyway?

[leggywillow]

::wails::

Is it time for our bipolar thread to shift back to talk of sex and kittens now?  Because Anders is making me saaaaad.

[Ryzaki]

yukidama wrote...

I wasn't arguing over who did it, I was saying that it still happens. I'm not saying templars are all eeeeevil, either.

But Justice/Vengeance/Whatever is conspicuously absent at that point, when he was strong enough to assume direct control and force Anders to set up a bomb in a church. Does he think it is just for Anders to then work for the very people they spent all that time raging against, then? Or does the whole "Anders is a prisoner in his own body" issue get magically resolved after that?

True but I can't really blame him for something Justice made him do. I don't blame Conner for the Redcliff incident. 

THat's where I really want this bug fixed. Since it isn't the whole "The Last Straw" is identical to the friendship version. Is it any different? It should be. 

Wouldn't you need an alternate convo after the Chantry explosion to explain this? IF it's not explained yeah that's crappy writing but I can see a well written "You won't control me!" incident occuring maybe after the true horror of what Justice has just done sets in. Anders may know there's a bomb but seeing the results could be enough for (me personally) to think he goes "No oh no." and fights Justice back (especially if you have Justice kill the mage girl). 

Edit: Then again I'm a huge fan of the fighting from the inside trope. So Anders' little "oh I can't fight him." in the rivalry path made me wanna slap him. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 mars 2011 - 09:37 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sialater wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

"The real Anders is against the Circle, but he's also a compassionate man who would not murder innocents."

Exactly, and we cannot bring that Anders back no matter what we do.

Indeed. 

Rivarly Anders kills innocents by culling the circle. 

Friendship anders kills innocents by blowing up the Chantry.

Either way he's gone. 

Blowing up the Chantry THEN helping you help Meredith cull the Circle. That action doesn't go away.

Vengeance blows up Chantry in Rivalry path. 

He tries to undo it and Vengeance takes over him preventing it. 

And frankly, there are innocent Templars.  They may have chosen to become them, but they are acting on a conviction that they've been taught all their lives is correct.  Some thought mages needed to be protected.  Some thought they needed to be controlled.  Not every Templar hates mages.

Yeah... I think the problem here is this:  Mages DO need to be watched, but to what degree? 

I've kind of thought about it this way... a flock of sheep, if allowed to run wild and free, are hunted by wolves.  The sheep can be protected by a sheepdog, but must also be properly trained so that they do not prey on the sheep themselves.  It's probably a horrible analogy, but I think the templars need to be there to watch AND protect the mages, and one could possibly see this harmonious relationship where mages are allowed to maintain relatively normal lives while the templars are there to keep them in check, and the seekers to keep the templars in check.  Very pie in the sky idea but...

Anders would kill me for calling mages sheep.

[Aggie Punbot]

Sialater wrote...
How long before the end events of DA2 and Varric's questioning, anyway?

Three years.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 25 mars 2011 - 09:36 .

[Sialater]

leggywillow wrote...

::wails::

Is it time for our bipolar thread to shift back to talk of sex and kittens now?  Because Anders is making me saaaaad.

Feel better?

[mellifera]

Ryzaki wrote...

yukidama wrote...

I wasn't arguing over who did it, I was saying that it still happens. I'm not saying templars are all eeeeevil, either.

But Justice/Vengeance/Whatever is conspicuously absent at that point, when he was strong enough to assume direct control and force Anders to set up a bomb in a church. Does he think it is just for Anders to then work for the very people they spent all that time raging against, then? Or does the whole "Anders is a prisoner in his own body" issue get magically resolved after that?

True but I can't really blame him for something Justice made him do. I don't blame Conner for the Redcliff incident. 

THat's where I really want this bug fixed. Since it isn't the whole "The Last Straw" is identical to the friendship version. Is it any different? It should be. 

Wouldn't you need an alternate convo after the Chantry explosion to explain this? IF it's not explained yeah that's crappy writing but I can see a well written "You won't control me!" incident occuring maybe after the true horror of what Justice has just done sets in. Anders may know there's a bomb but seeing the results could be enough for (me personally) to think he goes "No oh no." and fights Justice back (especially if you have Justice kill the mage girl). 

I kinda hate the whole "Anders fights Justice and wins" angle, though. I personally think it diminishes it if after all that he can 'get better'. I don't like the whole "he's absolved from his crimes and responsibility because Justice did it" angle too. Then again, I'm not the writer, so *shrug*. I'll stick to whatever gives me the most tragedy since I'm a sucker like that.

Modifié par yukidama, 25 mars 2011 - 09:39 .