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[ipgd]

SurelyForth wrote...

There's unhappy endings (almost any where Anders is killed, or dies protecting the mages) and bittersweet endings (the friendmance ending where they run away together). This ending is ****ed up in a bad way because it completely destroys a character to their core, rendering them almost unrecognizeable. If you want to make it happen in your game, awesome. But please be prepared for people who actually like Anders as a character to find the whole thing absolutely repugnant. Because it is.

Given the fact that the entire Anders romance is basically one long exercise in tragedy porn, I can see where throwing in a little "and then everyone ends up completely and irreparably broken" might be appealing.

I mean, sure, it's totally awful from an outside perspective, but that's a whole lot of drama.

ETA: The friendship romance isn't even really that different as far as "brokenness" goes, anyway. With the bugged templar ending, Anders is throwing away everything he believes in and estranging himself from Justice, and with the typical mage ending, he's completely giving himself to Justice. Either way, the old Anders is either dead or soon to be very, very broken.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 mars 2011 - 05:41 .

[Sarah1281]

BlueElf2 wrote...
The chance to setlle down in a forest somewhere and have little broody elf babies, what else?! lol! Basically, I meant she was opting for a life where she'd always be on the run as opposed to one where she might possibly be able to quit looking over her shoulder so much at some point. Then again, considering the kind of people Hawke attracts, it might be better to be on the run.

Elf babies? Somehow I doubt this was ever on the table for Anders and Hawke. Unless they were planning to adopt? 

m trying to get Anders' rivalry now without being a jerk to him. It's difficult for me because I don't believe that it's love when you can't accept your lover as he is, and if you are trying to change him, then you love an image from your head, not the real person. But my Hawke is a templar and all mages she meets are blood mages who are trying to kill her, so she's just trying to convince Anders that not all mages are good people and there's a reason why templars exist. I'm afraid they will never fall in love, because Dinah is getting both rivalry and friendship points XD She's to wise to fall in love, I guess.

Who says you're trying to change who they are? Rival!Hawke just disagrees with his decision to get possessed and/or his belief that all mages should be unconditionally freed right now. It's not easy (and neither is the rivalmance) but IRL people can be together without agreeing on every important issue.

[DeaHamlet]

Galagraphia wrote...

I'm trying to get Anders' rivalry now without being a jerk to him. It's difficult for me because I don't believe that it's love when you can't accept your lover as he is, and if you are trying to change him, then you love an image from your head, not the real person. But my Hawke is a templar and all mages she meets are blood mages who are trying to kill her, so she's just trying to convince Anders that not all mages are good people and there's a reason why templars exist. I'm afraid they will never fall in love, because Dinah is getting both rivalry and friendship points XD She's to wise to fall in love, I guess.

I'm going to give you some advice, since I had to do something similar with Fenris.  Rivalry romance while during conversation we didn't butt heads... in fact, we had lovely discussions (resulting in friendship points o.O).
Try to take Anders with you on all the mage quests where you hand them over to the circle/templars.  Try to do those before you do anything for him and try to max out rivalry before mid-act 2.  Leave his Dissent for after you have him at 100% or close to it.  The gift from Fenris' mission should theoretically also give rivalry not friend points if you're on rivalry path.
There's plenty of ways to miff Anders, use the dragon age wiki to see which missions give what points.
You should be able to choose diplomatic or flirty or funny comments and still be okay getting him to 100% rivalry.
That is, assuming you don't want to antagonize him at every turn.  There's some options where you can disagree with him on his stance without being utterly nasty and without being all "you're a horrid abomination, blah blah".
Also, you can choose to stop him from killing that mage girl... you don't have to let him kill her for rivalry points or whatever (I find it sick to even think that a friend or a lover would let someone murder a girl when they can choose to stop him... UGH).
Hope it helps.  You don't have to do this, but this is what I did with Fenris since he and I don't agree on the mage issue but we both hate slavers and anyone who has hurt him deserves death a thousand times over.  Leads to much nicer conversations... feels much more like a love affair than a ****-fest fight.

[Lady Jess]

YUKI DAMMIT!!

Ok Fine since Anders likes cats you win. This time. *stomps*

[Miri1984]

ipgd wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There's unhappy endings (almost any where Anders is killed, or dies protecting the mages) and bittersweet endings (the friendmance ending where they run away together). This ending is ****ed up in a bad way because it completely destroys a character to their core, rendering them almost unrecognizeable. If you want to make it happen in your game, awesome. But please be prepared for people who actually like Anders as a character to find the whole thing absolutely repugnant. Because it is.

Given the fact that the entire Anders romance is basically one long exercise in tragedy porn, I can see where throwing in a little "and then everyone ends up completely and irreparably broken" might be appealing.

I mean, sure, it's totally awful from an outside perspective, but that's a whole lot of drama.

Drama sure, but I really can't accept that it is "better for Anders".

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

I'm just going to close my eyes and think of Varric.

Yes.....you're a naughty dwarf aren't you. What are you planning with that? Oh...OH!

[BlueElf2]

DeaHamlet wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

My ladyHawke felt rather let down after she basically gave up any chance at a normal life to be with him.

What kind of normal life are we talking here? The life of a normal vigilante noble who can't mind her own business and gets caught up in anything remotely interesting that goes on? That sounds kind of like a contradiction of terms.

XD  So true

Varric: So you're running off with Blondie
Hawke: Yeah, I guess so.  I just... it'll be hard, y'know?  Life will never be normal again.
Varric: Ah, you mean you'll never get to murder raider gangs by the dozens.
Hawke: Well no, we'll probably still do that
Varric: Stick your nose into a stranger's conversation about their missing cat or kidnapped sister...
Hawke: Of course I'll still do that!
Varric: ...and then leave a river of blood in your wake as you put your own life at risk to solve their problem?
Hawke: Duh.
Varric: Surround yourself by dangerous and mentally unstable people?
Hawke: Of course! Don't be silly!
Varric: ::sigh:: Somehow I don't think you'll find your new life too different, sweetie.

Hahahhahaha.  Crack me up.
All my Hawkettes were like "well, this isn't going to be much different other than lacking a great mansion in which I barely spent any time in, what with saving everyone from everyone else all the time!  I only got sexy times TWICE with my boyfriend in 3 years. it can only improve!"

lol! I'm sure they'll have lots of chances for sexy times while hiding out. It may actually be the best thing to ever happen to their relationship.

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...

Drama sure, but I really can't accept that it is "better for Anders".

When did anyone suggest rivalrymance with the templars was better for Anders? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 mars 2011 - 05:42 .

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Surely Forth: And I have no problem with that. I personally don't find it repugnant and trying to say it definitely is is well...*shrugs* to each their own. I'm not arguing about it because it is just personal preference. And debating that is good for nothing other than a timesink. 

As for Anders completely losing himself. Odd how he seems completely in control of himself during the speech then.

He's losing himself as a person, by doing the very thing that has been done to him his entire life.

And there is nothing to guarantee that he can contol Vengeance over the long term. He can feel Vengeance inside of him, longing to take control. He Justice's out during his speech to Orsino and Meredith, which is not too far removed from the scene in the gallows and his mental state is so intensely fragile that it seems improbable that he will be able to offer much resistance in the days ahead. He might SAY he thinks he won't lose himself again, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

[upsettingshorts]

SurelyForth wrote...

And who's to say that Justice can't be blamed in the end?

*raises hand*

I don't think they're truly seperate entities at any point in DA2.  Justice "takes over" the same way our own temper can take hold of us if we're suitably provoked.  They don't have conversations in his mind, it isn't sometimes Anders and sometimes Justice, it's always both.   His glowing blue eyes and odd voice moments are just manifestations of his own special brand of psychosis.  

Neither Anders nor Justice as we knew them in DA:A even exists anymore.  They've become a single entity and in doing so corrupted each other.  Whether or not "Anders" is at peace with that by Act 3 depends on Hawke, either he's accepted himself for this new thing he's become, or his mind can't reconcile the internal conflict anymore and shatters. 

In the end Justice and Anders, in their pre-merger form, are responsible - for making the arrangement in the first place.  Whether or not Hawke throws his or her hat into the ring of blame depends on whether or not they take the Friend path. 

Short version:  They're both to blame, and they're both long gone.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 mars 2011 - 05:44 .

[Ryzaki]

@SurelyForth: And I feel he's already lost himself on the friendship path. He's no longer a person he's just a ideal. He is nothing other than the cause of mages.

Edit: As for the speech bit I wonder if the bugged version is any different? Anders supposedly blames Justice on the rivalry path. So he should be in complete Justice mode during the explosion. Yet he's not. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 mars 2011 - 05:51 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

It's clear that Justice will win in the end. It's just a matter of time.

[Sarah1281]

I don't think they're truly seperate entities at any point in DA2. Justice "takes over" the same way our own emotions can take a hold of us if we're suitably provoked. They don't have conversations in his mind, it isn't sometimes Anders and sometimes Justice, it's always both. His glowing blue eyes and odd voice moments are just manifestations of his own special brand of psychosis.

Then why is Anders having blackouts?

[mellifera]

ipgd wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There's unhappy endings (almost any where Anders is killed, or dies protecting the mages) and bittersweet endings (the friendmance ending where they run away together). This ending is ****ed up in a bad way because it completely destroys a character to their core, rendering them almost unrecognizeable. If you want to make it happen in your game, awesome. But please be prepared for people who actually like Anders as a character to find the whole thing absolutely repugnant. Because it is.

Given the fact that the entire Anders romance is basically one long exercise in tragedy porn, I can see where throwing in a little "and then everyone ends up completely and irreparably broken" might be appealing.

I mean, sure, it's totally awful from an outside perspective, but that's a whole lot of drama.

ETA: The friendship romance isn't even really that different as far as "brokenness" goes, anyway. With the bugged templar ending, Anders is throwing away everything he believes in and estranging himself from Justice, and with the typical mage ending, he's completely giving himself to Justice. Either way, the old Anders is either dead or soon to be very, very broken.

You know what would have sated me? If at some point Vengeance came out and went bat**** over the whole thing and you had to kill Anders, in the vein of how Karl begged Anders to kill him because he couldn't stand to live as the empty shell he had been turned into.

Don't tell me I don't love my tragedy porn, just... not like this.

Modifié par yukidama, 27 mars 2011 - 05:47 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

And who's to say that Justice can't be blamed in the end?

*raises hand*

I don't think they're truly seperate entities at any point in DA2.  Justice "takes over" the same way our own temper can take hold of us if we're suitably provoked.  They don't have conversations in his mind, it isn't sometimes Anders and sometimes Justice, it's always both.   His glowing blue eyes and odd voice moments are just manifestations of his own special brand of psychosis.  

Neither Anders nor Justice as we knew them in DA:A even exists anymore.  They've become a single entity and in doing so corrupted each other.  Whether or not "Anders" is at peace with that by Act 3 depends on Hawke, either he's accepted himself for this new thing he's become, or his mind can't reconcile the internal conflict anymore and shatters. 

In the end Justice and Anders, in their pre-merger form, are responsible - for making the arrangement in the first place.  Whether or not Hawke throws his or her hat into the ring of blame depends on whether or not they take the Friend path. 

Short version:  They're both to blame, and they're both long gone.

This. By accepting Justice Anders anger twisted the spirit in turn twisting Anders. Hello bad idea. I missed you.

[upsettingshorts]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Then why is Anders having blackouts?

Normal people in the real world have blackouts all the time and they don't literally have a seperate entity living in their mind.

Anders explains this a few times, two of which I can recall rather explicitly.  First, when he describes to Hawke how scholars wouldn't be able to determine where Anders and Justice are differentiated.  Second, when Isabela is teasing him about wanting to talk to Anders, he explains that it's always him.  

It's still him when he's going all glowy in the face, too.  He's just pissed off then, and his righteousness manifests itself in a unique way because he's an abomination.  But old Anders?  Gone.  Old Justice?  Gone.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 mars 2011 - 05:49 .

[BlueElf2]

It'd be nice if there actually was some way to free Anders from Justice, other than by killing him.

[DeaHamlet]

I'm sorry to interrupt another discussion on rivalry and templar siding whatever blah blah.

I just wanted to say that the way some people express themselves on here, so eloquent and to the point and brilliant... I have quite a few crushes.
It's a nice distraction from playing an evil mage with a crush on Anders staying farrrrrr away from his sexy self (for fear that beautiful man will kill her in her sleep when he finds out she's a blood mage)... and romancing Fenris instead, on the rivalry path no less. I needs distraction!

[Ryzaki]

BlueElf2 wrote...

It'd be nice if there actually was some way to free Anders from Justice, other than by killing him.

I doubt it. Even if you managed to it would leave a rip on Anders' soul. 

Frankly I would prefer Anders completely dominating Justice and being able to use Justice's powers to augment his own. Other than that Justice can become nonexistant. 

I won't get that of course but it would be nice. 

[Kawamura]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Not gonna lie, if Anders tried kissing my Hawke at that point in time, even if they're fighting for the mages, Hawke would deck him. Hell, he probably wouldn't even want to look at him for the moment, even if they're possibly going to die very soon.

Anders: (goes in for a kiss)
Hawke: DUDE! WTF! You really think I want you all over me right now? Really? You just BLEW UP A FREAKING CHANTRY. Just to let you know, I'm siding with the mages because THEIR DEATH WOULD BE UNFAIR. Not because I agree with what you've just done. BAD! BAD ANDERS! -slap-

That's how my super-neurotic Hawke would handle it.

P much.

Hawke: Look. We had a conversation about distance and and limits and now would be the time for you to use that info.

He could look like a super put out kitten all he wanted, but while my cat might piddle on the carpet and get away wth it because of that look, blowing up chantries is on a slightly different level.

[ipgd]

Miri1984 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There's unhappy endings (almost any where Anders is killed, or dies protecting the mages) and bittersweet endings (the friendmance ending where they run away together). This ending is ****ed up in a bad way because it completely destroys a character to their core, rendering them almost unrecognizeable. If you want to make it happen in your game, awesome. But please be prepared for people who actually like Anders as a character to find the whole thing absolutely repugnant. Because it is.

Given the fact that the entire Anders romance is basically one long exercise in tragedy porn, I can see where throwing in a little "and then everyone ends up completely and irreparably broken" might be appealing.

I mean, sure, it's totally awful from an outside perspective, but that's a whole lot of drama.

Drama sure, but I really can't accept that it is "better for Anders".

Neither of the outcomes are good for Anders, if you really think about it. With the friendship mage end, Anders is essentially cannibalized by Justice, whereas with the rival templar end, he will in all likelihood eventually be mentally destroyed by Justice. I think it's made pretty clear that Justice is much stronger than Anders and it's not a fight he's ever going to win.

An argument could be made for the latter that it may be better that he at least fight to retain what little is left of his individuality and his old self, even if it's more painful than completely surrendering to Justice. Either way, Anders is pretty much dead.

Modifié par ipgd, 27 mars 2011 - 05:52 .

[Kawamura]

Ryzaki wrote...

BlueElf2 wrote...

It'd be nice if there actually was some way to free Anders from Justice, other than by killing him.

I doubt it. Even if you managed to it would leave a rip on Anders' soul. 

Frankly I would prefer Anders completely dominating Justice and being able to use Justice's powers to augment his own. Other than that Justice can become nonexistant. 

I won't get that of course but it would be nice. 

Because dominating folks always works out for the best.

Er. Hrm. Maybe that was a bad way to argue against, because I said it outloud and it didn't sound as snide as I would have liked. It sounded pretty all right, considering the company. Okay, rephrase that: because enslaving things always works out for the best.

It seems like, no matter what one does, Anders is boned. Not that it's a problem. Anders was boned the day he showed magic, the day he survived the Joining. It's just-- he found another boning.

I am not very good at making arguments not sound like a bad porno flick. Jesus.

[Sarah1281]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Then why is Anders having blackouts?

Normal people in the real world have blackouts all the time and they don't literally have a seperate entity living in their mind.

And they generally have a reason for this. Too much alcohol is a common reason. What reason would a completely merged Anders/Justice hybrid have for blacking out? Particularly when he witness one of these blackouts. Hawke tells Anders that it isn't too late to undo whatever he's planning, Anders starts to agree, Justice comes out to yell at Hawke and tells him to go away, then Anders asks what just happened and mentions he's been having blackouts increasingly often. If they were the same person, what prompted this blackout when he's not doing anything but talking to you? The only explanation I see is the at least partially seperate entity of Justice forced its way out and suppressed Anders.

[DeaHamlet]

My Hawke would have totally kissed him in a pure abandon of "oh hell, we might die in a minute, I love you, and right this moment is all we have"
She'd leave the preaching to for on the ship. Or maybe in a day or two after she's had some time to think of what she'd say.

[leggywillow]

Kawamura wrote...
He could look like a super put out kitten all he wanted, but while my cat might piddle on the carpet and get away wth it because of that look, blowing up chantries is on a slightly different level.

Naw, wait until the day your cat blows up a building or two.  You'll still forgive it and give it snuggles and treats to nom upon. 

EDIT:

Kawamura wrote...

Because dominating folks always works out for the best.

Er.
Hrm. Maybe that was a bad way to argue against, because I said it
outloud and it didn't sound as snide as I would have liked. It sounded
pretty all right, considering the company. Okay, rephrase that: because
enslaving things always works out for the best.

It seems like,
no matter what one does, Anders is boned. Not that it's a problem.
Anders was boned the day he showed magic, the day he survived the
Joining. It's just-- he found another boning.

I am not very good at making arguments not sound like a bad porno flick. Jesus.

LOL, I will agree with that.  Nearly every line you wrote made me snicker at the innuendo.  

Modifié par leggywillow, 27 mars 2011 - 05:55 .