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[Ryzaki]

Kawamura wrote...

Because dominating folks always works out for the best.

Er. Hrm. Maybe that was a bad way to argue against, because I said it outloud and it didn't sound as snide as I would have liked. It sounded pretty all right, considering the company. Okay, rephrase that: because enslaving things always works out for the best.

It seems like, no matter what one does, Anders is boned. Not that it's a problem. Anders was boned the day he showed magic, the day he survived the Joining. It's just-- he found another boning.

I am not very good at making arguments not sound like a bad porno flick. Jesus.

I never said it was going to be a happy ever after.  Or even pleasant or kind.  Nice to me meant wanted. Sorry if I didn't make it clear. 

And yes Anders is screwed one way or another. Don't worry about your arguements I'm pretty bad at them too. (which is why I try to stay out of debates). 

[BlueElf2]

Ryzaki wrote...

BlueElf2 wrote...

It'd be nice if there actually was some way to free Anders from Justice, other than by killing him.

I doubt it. Even if you managed to it would leave a rip on Anders' soul. 

Frankly I would prefer Anders completely dominating Justice and being able to use Justice's powers to augment his own. Other than that Justice can become nonexistant. 

I won't get that of course but it would be nice. 

Okay, your idea is much better than mine. Neither will probably happen in an actual game, but if it's ever up for debate by the Bioware staff, I vote for Anders dominating Justice.

I'm still disappointed that the rivalry path is so glitch-tastic, but at least knowing it was supposed to play out differently is something.

[DeaHamlet]

leggywillow wrote...

Kawamura wrote...
He could look like a super put out kitten all he wanted, but while my cat might piddle on the carpet and get away wth it because of that look, blowing up chantries is on a slightly different level.

Naw, wait until the day your cat blows up a building or two.  You'll still forgive it and give it snuggles and treats to nom upon. 

I cannot resist cats.  My kittie gets away with far too much and I'm still delusional enough to think "he's not that bad".  

[upsettingshorts]

Sarah1281 wrote...

And they generally have a reason for this. Too much alcohol is a common reason. What reason would a completely merged Anders/Justice hybrid have for blacking out?

I'm not sure but I think you're misinterpreting my argument.

I'm saying that there's no physical battle for control of his mind like say, a demonic possession that can be exorcised, but that his problem is psychosis.  It's still a problem, and it's still a reason, because the being that he is become cannot fully cope with the merger of personalities.  

More dissociatitive identity disorder, less spiritual possession.  Though of course still some of the latter, but less than your typical abomination because the merger was voluntary  and complete.

In other words, it's all in his head.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 mars 2011 - 05:57 .

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

There's unhappy endings (almost any where Anders is killed, or dies protecting the mages) and bittersweet endings (the friendmance ending where they run away together). This ending is ****ed up in a bad way because it completely destroys a character to their core, rendering them almost unrecognizeable. If you want to make it happen in your game, awesome. But please be prepared for people who actually like Anders as a character to find the whole thing absolutely repugnant. Because it is.

Given the fact that the entire Anders romance is basically one long exercise in tragedy porn, I can see where throwing in a little "and then everyone ends up completely and irreparably broken" might be appealing.

I mean, sure, it's totally awful from an outside perspective, but that's a whole lot of drama.

Drama sure, but I really can't accept that it is "better for Anders".

Neither of the outcomes are good for Anders, if you really think about it. With the friendship mage end, Anders is essentially cannibalized by Justice, whereas with the rival templar end, he will in all likelihood eventually be mentally destroyed by Justice. I think it's made pretty clear that Justice is much stronger than Anders and it's not a fight he's ever going to win.

An argument could be made for the latter that it may be better that he at least fight to retain what little is left of his individuality and his old self, even if it's more painful than completely surrendering to Justice. Either way, Anders is pretty much dead.

This. 

[Amondra]

BlueElf2 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

BlueElf2 wrote...

It'd be nice if there actually was some way to free Anders from Justice, other than by killing him.

I doubt it. Even if you managed to it would leave a rip on Anders' soul. 

Frankly I would prefer Anders completely dominating Justice and being able to use Justice's powers to augment his own. Other than that Justice can become nonexistant. 

I won't get that of course but it would be nice. 

Okay, your idea is much better than mine. Neither will probably happen in an actual game, but if it's ever up for debate by the Bioware staff, I vote for Anders dominating Justice.

I'm still disappointed that the rivalry path is so glitch-tastic, but at least knowing it was supposed to play out differently is something.

I just wished they did more on him and Justice, like make up their mind on spirits and demons in peoples bodies, also what was up with those two as a whole.  I say  this because at some points I felt like the game was about Anders not Hawke so them doing something souly around him wouldn't surprise me.  Also him dominating Justice gave me naughty images >.>

I was upset on the glitches in the rival romance as well, as it seems that one was where you were actually helping control justice(which I felt was crap!!!)

[mellifera]

I don't see it as Justice cannibalizing Anders at all. It wasn't Justice's cause to start with, it was Anders'. He didn't let Justice in for no reason. I think too much blame is being placed squarely on Justice's shoulders when they both dun goofed.

[SurelyForth]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

And who's to say that Justice can't be blamed in the end?

*raises hand*

I don't think they're truly seperate entities at any point in DA2.  Justice "takes over" the same way our own temper can take hold of us if we're suitably provoked.  They don't have conversations in his mind, it isn't sometimes Anders and sometimes Justice, it's always both.   His glowing blue eyes and odd voice moments are just manifestations of his own special brand of psychosis.  

Neither Anders nor Justice as we knew them in DA:A even exists anymore.  They've become a single entity and in doing so corrupted each other.  Whether or not "Anders" is at peace with that by Act 3 depends on Hawke, either he's accepted himself for this new thing he's become, or his mind can't reconcile the internal conflict anymore and shatters. 

In the end Justice and Anders, in their pre-merger form, are responsible - for making the arrangement in the first place.  Whether or not Hawke throws his or her hat into the ring of blame depends on whether or not they take the Friend path. 

Short version:  They're both to blame, and they're both long gone.

I was referring to Ryzaki's post intimating that a rivaled Anders would be free from Justice's influence.

I agree with you.

And I am fine with the friendship meaning that Anders peacefully co-exists/merges with Justice because I feel as if his goal is a just one and he's already ****ed himself over by becoming possessed, and there's little chance of him becoming unpossessed, so...

I do have some quibbles with his execution, but those are from an outsider's perspective. When I'm actually playing the game, interacting with Elthina and seeing how she won't budge and knowing that the Divine is getting ready to drop the hammer, I feel like what he does is horrible but inevitable and the only real way to justify it is for Hawke to make him keep fighting in the war he started and to join him (as she is responsible, too, and probably the best one for the job of...stopping him, should he go astray in an inexcusably violent way).

And, if Justice had "cannibalized" Anders, Anders would probably not keep Hawke around at all considering the fact that any sort of companionship steals precious crusading time. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[Kawamura]

leggywillow wrote...

Kawamura wrote...
He could look like a super put out kitten all he wanted, but while my cat might piddle on the carpet and get away wth it because of that look, blowing up chantries is on a slightly different level.

Naw, wait until the day your cat blows up a building or two.  You'll still forgive it and give it snuggles and treats to nom upon. 

EDIT:

Kawamura wrote...

Because dominating folks always works out for the best.

Er.
Hrm. Maybe that was a bad way to argue against, because I said it
outloud and it didn't sound as snide as I would have liked. It sounded
pretty all right, considering the company. Okay, rephrase that: because
enslaving things always works out for the best.

It seems like,
no matter what one does, Anders is boned. Not that it's a problem.
Anders was boned the day he showed magic, the day he survived the
Joining. It's just-- he found another boning.

I am not very good at making arguments not sound like a bad porno flick. Jesus.

LOL, I will agree with that.  Nearly every line you wrote made me snicker at the innuendo.  

My cat wouldn't blow up a building. *wibble* She's a sweet dear. She's a good girl. The worst she does is eat q-tips and sometimes jump on my back. But usually I'm wearing two layers, so just hangs there adorably.

It does force my hand, mind you. Not much compromise, with a cat on your back.

And thank you, my humor seems to have developed until age 12 and hasn't changed since over the last 10+ years.

[leggywillow]

Honestly, the only thing I'm now certain of is that my Cousland is hugging Alistair as tightly as possible and praising the BW writers for giving her such a joyous happy ending.  Sure, she may have pimped out her husband to impregnate someone with a god baby that could theoretically try to destroy the world someday... but she still got to marry her one true love and be his happy Queen for the better part of a decade (before being whisked away to the Plot Dungeon).  That's way more than poor Hawke can claim.

[upsettingshorts]

Justice doesn't "win" either. His perspective is gone forever, along with his ability to see beyond what was Anders' cause. Spirits and demons represent pure concepts that when inserted into the mortal realm become corrupted and lose their cohesion, regardless of their original nature.

The spirit should have remained in the Fade, and Anders should have remained Anders. They each made their bed long before meeting Hawke. Hawke just determines which version of tragic their end will be.

leggywillow wrote...

Honestly, the only thing I'm now certain of is that my Cousland is hugging Alistair as tightly as possible and praising the BW writers for giving her such a joyous happy ending.  Sure, she may have pimped out her husband to impregnate someone with a god baby that could theoretically try to destroy the world someday... but she still got to marry her one true love and be his happy Queen for the better part of a decade (before being whisked away to the Plot Dungeon).  That's way more than poor Hawke can claim.

You also got to put a totally infertile couple on the throne of a politically unstable country with no clear alternative to rule.  Not to mention Loghain - and others - fears about the Grey Wardens taking over will have been partially confirmed by that ending.  Have fun with the succession crisis in a couple decades after the monarchs' Calling, Ferelden!

*tosses wet blanket*
*Hugs King Hardistar/Anora + Redeemer ending*

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 27 mars 2011 - 06:06 .

[Ryzaki]

BlueElf2 wrote..

Okay, your idea is much better than mine. Neither will probably happen in an actual game, but if it's ever up for debate by the Bioware staff, I vote for Anders dominating Justice. 

I'm still disappointed that the rivalry path is so glitch-tastic, but at least knowing it was supposed to play out differently is something.

Indeed. That's too close to a almost sane ending for our dear Anders. 

Me too. *sighs* I played the rivalrymance and throughly enjoyed it but at the Last Straw everything became just...odd. Justice was suddenly cool with Hawke. Anders was suddenly cool with Justice. It just got really really odd. 

I'm happy to find out it's a glitch. I do hope there's actually an alternate version of the rivalrymance when you side with the mages as well. If there's not it'll be a disappointment. 

[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote...

I was referring to Ryzaki's post intimating that a rivaled Anders would be free from Justice's influence

I said he'd be completely free of Justice? Odd. I don't think that. I think he'd be somewhat free (more free than on the friendship path) but that freedom would be tempered by the constant struggle for control (that he would sometimes lose resulting in less freedom than he would've had on the friendship path). 

The two end up in a strange balancing act. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 mars 2011 - 06:05 .

[Kawamura]

leggywillow wrote...

Honestly, the only thing I'm now certain of is that my Cousland is hugging Alistair as tightly as possible and praising the BW writers for giving her such a joyous happy ending.  Sure, she may have pimped out her husband to impregnate someone with a god baby that could theoretically try to destroy the world someday... but she still got to marry her one true love and be his happy Queen for the better part of a decade (before being whisked away to the Plot Dungeon).  That's way more than poor Hawke can claim.

Or receive their Calling.

Also a happy ending. Down, alone in the dark but for the monsters your body is begging to become. Mmmm. Fun times.

[Trophonius]

Is Morrigan's god baby solution really that much of a problem? Without her, there wouldn't be a royal wedding. Only carcasses lying next to the Archdemon.

[BlueElf2]

DeaHamlet wrote...

My Hawke would have totally kissed him in a pure abandon of "oh hell, we might die in a minute, I love you, and right this moment is all we have"
She'd leave the preaching to for on the ship. Or maybe in a day or two after she's had some time to think of what she'd say.

Yes, my Hawke would've done this as well. She was easily moved by her emotions, and the threat of impending doom would've been just the motivation she needed for a quick makeout session. All other issues could've been addressed if they lived. I loved my slightly batty, sarcastic, emotional Mercy Hawke. She may just be crazy enough to keep Anders sane...or as sane as he can be anyway.

[DeaHamlet]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Justice doesn't "win" either. His perspective is gone forever, along with his ability to see beyond what was Anders' cause. Spirits and demons represent pure concepts that when inserted into the mortal realm become corrupted and lose their cohesion, regardless of their original nature.

The spirit should have remained in the Fade, and Anders should have remained Anders. They each made their bed long before meeting Hawke. Hawke just determines which version of tragic their end will be.

leggywillow wrote...

Honestly, the only thing I'm now certain of is that my Cousland is hugging Alistair as tightly as possible and praising the BW writers for giving her such a joyous happy ending.  Sure, she may have pimped out her husband to impregnate someone with a god baby that could theoretically try to destroy the world someday... but she still got to marry her one true love and be his happy Queen for the better part of a decade (before being whisked away to the Plot Dungeon).  That's way more than poor Hawke can claim.

You also got to put a totally infertile couple on the throne of a politically unstable country with no clear alternative to rule.  Not to mention Loghain - and others - fears about the Grey Wardens taking over will have been partially confirmed by that ending.  Have fun with the succession crisis in a couple decades after the monarchs' Calling, Ferelden!

*tosses wet blanket*
*Hugs King Hardistar/Anora + Redeemer ending*

Well, well.... My warden just stayed a grey warden with Alistair and they did awesome stuff (secret stuff aparently) with the grey wardens.
None of that ruling BS.  Anora can marry whoever she wants eventually.  She's just not getting Alistair, NO WAY.

[Sarah1281]

Trophonius wrote...

Is Morrigan's god baby solution really that much of a problem? Without her, there wouldn't be a royal wedding. Only carcasses lying next to the Archdemon.

I didn't used to think so but ever since DA2 came out I've been worrying that the baby would grow up like Anders.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Story published. Just need to wait for it to show up.

If it does at all.XD

[mellifera]

Trophonius wrote...

Is Morrigan's god baby solution really that much of a problem? Without her, there wouldn't be a royal wedding. Only carcasses lying next to the Archdemon.

I read this as "caressing, lying next to the Archdemon". Bad mental images

Modifié par yukidama, 27 mars 2011 - 06:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

...I can't envisage a scenario in which the Dark Ritual isn't significantly more important than which two people get to keep sleeping with each other...

But that's off-topic, bonus incredulity.

[Ryzaki]

Trophonius wrote...

Is Morrigan's god baby solution really that much of a problem? Without her, there wouldn't be a royal wedding. Only carcasses lying next to the Archdemon.

Depends on what kind of person the god baby is. 

The kind of person Morrigan is doesn't exactly give me much hope for the kid being a good leader and someone to usher in a golden age. 

[DeaHamlet]

BlueElf2 wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

My Hawke would have totally kissed him in a pure abandon of "oh hell, we might die in a minute, I love you, and right this moment is all we have"
She'd leave the preaching to for on the ship. Or maybe in a day or two after she's had some time to think of what she'd say.

Yes, my Hawke would've done this as well. She was easily moved by her emotions, and the threat of impending doom would've been just the motivation she needed for a quick makeout session. All other issues could've been addressed if they lived. I loved my slightly batty, sarcastic, emotional Mercy Hawke. She may just be crazy enough to keep Anders sane...or as sane as he can be anyway.

That's not to say I was unhappy with the ending.  I was very happy.  My Hawke gets all teary eyed when he talks of babies and how someone like him could love someone like me in the future with no templars in the way... aweeeeee... Hawkette's heart was full... I bet if I listened hard enough I could hear her go "squee".  

[Sjofn]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
You also got to put a totally infertile couple on the throne of a politically unstable country with no clear alternative to rule.  Not to mention Loghain - and others - fears about the Grey Wardens taking over will have been partially confirmed by that ending.  Have fun with the succession crisis in a couple decades after the monarchs' Calling, Ferelden!

Meh, it's possible to do that with the other endings too. Anora alone doesn't remarry because she has major Daddy Issues, and it's entirely possible she's not the most fertile lady around given she never had a kid with Cailan (I prefer to think he was the one shooting blanks, but Alistair is not going to fare much better). So might as well go with Twoo Wuv. 

[BlueElf2]

DeaHamlet wrote...


Well, well.... My warden just stayed a grey warden with Alistair and they did awesome stuff (secret stuff aparently) with the grey wardens.
None of that ruling BS.  Anora can marry whoever she wants eventually.  She's just not getting Alistair, NO WAY.

^ Yep, this is the ending I went for as well. Let Anora rule the kingdom! Alistair didn't want it anyway, and since my City Elf Warden couldn't marry him, why would I want to make him king and give him to Anora? There is, of course, vast potential for that god baby to come back to bite them in the bum, but they'll cross that bridge when they get to it.