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[Miri1984]

@Lampppostinwinter Just THINKING about that picture makes me well up. Gah, so, so sad. And it's called "Happy... for a time..." *cries big sobby tears*.

Oh, and BTW there was a lot of Pratchett love going around before, I want to add my little bit of that, because he rocks!

TOP By CallMeMina on DevArt:

Modifié par Miri1984, 27 mars 2011 - 09:57 .

[Threeparts]

Miri1984 wrote...

I don't think the friendmance needs an option to tell him that joining with Justice was a bad idea. It's like telling a victim of lung cancer they shouldn't have smoked for ten years. IT'S DONE. He can't undo it, all he can do is hope to control it.

I like to think my Hawke spends the last three years with him living with her teaching him meditation techniques and breathing exercises to control his temper, not harping on at him for doing something stupid six years ago that has come back to bite him on the arse, that he CAN'T CHANGE.

/rant over.

I don't mean that Hawke should harp on about something he can't change, but instead try convincing him to learn to curb Vengeance's influence. In addition to being pro-mage, the friendship path seems to be about accepting the merge and letting them be at peace with each other, not suggesting he learn to resist the demon's influence. I don't like that we can only intervene there (and have an effect) by going rivalry, when I think a gentler approach has the same potential.

I know that the two paths need to have different goals, and that Rivalry is about change and Friendship is about acceptance, but Anders is kind of double-dipping with both the mage cause and the possession being so intertwined. The game doesn't track whether you're getting points for approving of Justice or approving of mages, just that you're getting the points, so any conversations where you support the mages but condemn Justice (or vice versa) will still lead to the same outcome.

Modifié par Threeparts, 27 mars 2011 - 10:01 .

[Kawamura]

lamppostinwinter wrote...

 So I just killed Anders for the first time.


By TheSilverRaven on Deviant

Only a flesh wound!

Anders has survived stab to the chest. Like a few silly organs falling out are going to stop him, eh!

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

dangereusegirl wrote...

So I got to the part in the game where you could flirt with Anders, and he asks if he is making you uncomfortable. We flirt a bit, and since I was playing with aggressive options as my primary dialogue, my Hawke said she could look after herself.

Anders: No.

Me: o.O [laughs]

That was...odd, to say the least. Funny, but odd.

Ugh...Anders.

[AtreiyaN7]

Threeparts wrote...

 So, is anyone else rarely getting appropriate dialogue from Anders when they click on him while out and about after Act I? Before the Deep Roads he'd say that Hightown has no idea what's brewing beneath them, or that Kirkwall starts to stink after a bit, but in Act II, all I've been getting is "We should get going." I'm on the Wounded Coast and Merrill still wants to go swimming and Aveline is worried about lawlessness, but Anders just thinks we should get going, no matter where we are.
I'm not sure if it's a bug, or if it's a feature to display his growing lack of interest in anything other than his cause. 

In Act II, Anders kept going "I don't whether I should cherish every moment that I am with you, or fear for you life to have me there." This was after he shows up at the estate to consummate the romance. Dang it, I am now bothered by the fact that I think I incorrectly said Consume when I should have said Devour in Reaver-related joke - yes, totally random tangent there!

Ahem, back on topic: I think in Act III Anders turns all business from the potion quest. on. My guess is that he's doing it as a means to try to keep Hawke at a distance in order to protect him/her and to steel himself for his death. After all, he was trying to give his pillow to Varric - that screamed "I'm getting ready to (probably) die!" to me.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Really, maybe I should kill him for that comment. I don't need no stickin' man.

[Miri1984]

@Threeparts I see what you mean, but what I'm saying is that the friendship path IS doing that. The needs and wants of Justice and Anders are the same in the friendship path. He isn't losing control of himself, Justice doesn't take over at all in Act 3. It's not Justice's idea to blow up the chantry, it's both of them. He can't resist something that is a part of himself.

[Ashwraith]

dangereusegirl wrote...

So I got to the part in the game where you could flirt with Anders, and he asks if he is making you uncomfortable. We flirt a bit, and since I was playing with aggressive options as my primary dialogue, my Hawke said she could look after herself.

Anders: No.

...Sten? Is that you? :U

[Threeparts]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Threeparts I see what you mean, but what I'm saying is that the friendship path IS doing that. The needs and wants of Justice and Anders are the same in the friendship path. He isn't losing control of himself, Justice doesn't take over at all in Act 3. It's not Justice's idea to blow up the chantry, it's both of them. He can't resist something that is a part of himself.

For me, it's about perspective and introspection, and getting him to separate what he would think from what thoughts are influenced, intensified or dismissed by the Vengeance side of him.
As an example, it would be the difference between Hawke keeping Thrask alive because he might be useful down the track, versus Anders choosing to kill him because it's an urge intensified by Vengeance rather than rationality.
I believe that one of the effects Vengeance has had is causing him to lose the sense of boundries and ethics that most people have, and helping to regain that is a positive step.

I respect that you think differently, and I agree that on the Friendship path Hawke should accept him for who he is, but I also believe that it wouldn't be a bad thing to encourage him to keep a tighter rein on himself at the same time.


Edit: I just realised that I'm essentially suggesting cognitive behavioural therapy for him, and have to giggle.

Modifié par Threeparts, 27 mars 2011 - 10:26 .

[Ashwraith]

Kawamura wrote...

lamppostinwinter wrote...

-picsnip-

Only a flesh wound!

Anders has survived stab to the chest. Like a few silly organs falling out are going to stop him, eh!

"I think I'll go for a walk!"
*falls over onto face*

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Hmm.. I wonder why Justice doesn't have more of a sense of self preservation. I mean he has a prefectly good body. When Anders seemed resigned to his fate Justice should have just been like, "Not so fast, I'm jacking this body."

[purplecookie]

Hope it's ok to join you all - long time lurker first time poster  

My husband is getting towards the end of his first play through and told me that he's working on Anders' quest to free him from Justice.... I just smiled and told him "Aw yay that's cool"... I'm a bad woman 

[Souris]

lamppostinwinter wrote...

This is unholy. So wrong, on so many levels. But I can't unsee it.

 www.youtube.com/watch

Nononono CANNOT UNSEEEEEEE 

[Ninche]

The way I see it, friendship means you keep him be in balance with himself as much as possible and perhaps retain that connection to Justice who is slowly being consumed by Vengence. In the rivalry path it seems you tormet him more and your whole relationship is so against all his principles it's driving him insane. As someone mentioned earlier, even if you DO convince him merging with Justice was a bad idea and make him kill mages at the end it feels to me like you've become just as bad as Vengence and tore at his heart and mind until he lost all idea of himself and his own needs and desires.

As I've said earlier with love comes acceptance - you can't have a harmonious relationship with anyone if you just disapprove of everything they do think or say all the time and fight to change them .

[Ryzaki]

Oh god that character swap. NOOOOOOO

Do not want.

Plus Seb without his voice is bleh.

[Sjofn]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Hmm.. I wonder why Justice doesn't have more of a sense of self preservation. I mean he has a prefectly good body. When Anders seemed resigned to his fate Justice should have just been like, "Not so fast, I'm jacking this body."

Because he thinks dying for what he just did is also just.


EDIT: Also, for the ten thousandth time, you do not have to disagree with everything Anders stands for in the rivalry path. The only major thing my current rival disagrees with him on to the point of fighting about it a lot is the whole "But I'm a GOOD abomination!" thing. They both hate blood mages like crazy. They both think the Circle is broken, my ManHawke just isn't half as militant about it as Anders is, and he doesn't think unbridled freedom is a good idea either.

Love is acceptance, sure, but it's also not standing by and giving a thumbs up to every single thing your beloved thinks. My husband is an atheist. I am not. We will never, ever, ever agree on it. We've argued about it plenty. But we still love each other bunches.

Really, I think the issue is more that Bioware has spent the past billion games of theirs stressing FRIENDSHIP GOOD, ANYTHING ELSE BAD, and it's messing with people's heads that there is a path besides "I agree with you about everything!" that is just as rewarding, valid, and even caring.

<end rant>

Modifié par Sjofn, 27 mars 2011 - 10:36 .

[Miri1984]

@ Threeparts:Yes, I see what you mean, BUT (always there's a but) I think by the end of the friendship path there really ISN'T a separation between what Justice/Vengeance thinks and what Anders does. They are one. He keeps telling us that, throughout the game, and I think someone's pointed out that the Justice/Vengeance part of him is like his temper, it comes out, but it's still HIM. Encouraging him to CONTROL it is what I want to do. Encouraging him to think of it as something that isn't HIM isn't, IMO, right, because any splitting of the two of them leads to rivaly blackouty things, where he can laugh it off as "Justice's fault", which I don't think is healthy.

So, basically, what I'm for is getting Anders to control his propensity for Vengeance, wtithout denying that that propensity is part of his personality that can't be removed or separated from him, IYKWIM?



ETA: Oh, and in regards to Justice having a sense of self preservation, another reason why my Hawke's don't kill him. HE WILL JUST HOP TO ANOTHER BODY. Or go back to the fade. Killing Anders does NOT stop Justice.

Modifié par Miri1984, 27 mars 2011 - 10:31 .

[MorningBird]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

The men that attack you not 5 minutes after you arrive in Kirkwall? You remember them right? Probably not because I burned them into little crispy pieces right in front of the Gallows. Hawke really has no reason to be protected two years in. Seeing as how Meredith and the Templars had the city mages on lockdownwhen you arrive I don't see them giving on refugee special treatment. The whole time with Bethany or Carver you're being warned that mages are persecuted there. It another hole that is never explained. Hawke logically would have been arrested and your journey would end.

Ah, I know which group you mean now.

It could just be because the city guard and templars (as you find out) aren't exactly on friendly terms (due to the templars constantly undermining the authority of the guard.)

I can see why the city guard would decide to look the other way right after Hawke saved his life.  Aveline also chooses to look the other way, even when not at full friendship/rivalry, and when she is guard captain, despite being a lawful character, so it's certainly not unheard of.

That being said, I didn't see any templars in the Gallows courtyard or by the docks during that particular confrontation.  Just refugees (who were mostly by the docks), guardsmen (who have no allegience to the templars) and the one merchant who was allowed in to trade wears.  If the templars were around, they were probably inside to ensure that the mages didn't use the 'open gate' to the docks as a means to escape Kirkwall.

If they found out about an apostate mage running around afterwards, well, as Anders says, there's an entire host of refugees for them to blend in with.

Modifié par MorningBird, 27 mars 2011 - 10:30 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Sjofn wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Hmm.. I wonder why Justice doesn't have more of a sense of self preservation. I mean he has a prefectly good body. When Anders seemed resigned to his fate Justice should have just been like, "Not so fast, I'm jacking this body."

Because he thinks dying for what he just did is also just.

But he can do more if he sticks around.

[Dunizel]

Threeparts wrote...


I don't mean that Hawke should harp on about something he can't change, but instead try convincing him to learn to curb Vengeance's influence. In addition to being pro-mage, the friendship path seems to be about accepting the merge and letting them be at peace with each other, not suggesting he learn to resist the demon's influence. I don't like that we can only intervene there (and have an effect) by going rivalry, when I think a gentler approach has the same potential.

Exactly. I can support mages, and I understand that Anders wanted to help a fiend accepting Justice. But at the same time I recognize that there is no Justice there anymore, that is Vengeance, and I am worried for him. Tell him that everything is all right is not a way to help in my opinion. 

Miri, my worry is that at that point we don't even know if the bombing idea came from Vengeance or not. Maybe not even Anders knows it. Their thoughts are shared, it's hard to understand if Anders can feel Vengeance thoughts separeted from his (in the romance scene, it seems so...but it is a bit confusing through the game). Even Merrill thoughts she wanted to restore the glass for her clan, but it turns out there was the demon influence. Maybe, withouth Vengeance, Anders would have done a different thing to fight the oppression, we just don't know. Maybe he could have asked for help, maybe he could have share his plans with Hawke.
You suppose the scene we see in the rivalry path, when he looses control and says he has more often blanks in his memory, its the consequence of the rivalry. I am worried that Anders is just loosing himself anyway, and he doesn't even know it. 

[Ninche]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Hmm.. I wonder why Justice doesn't have more of a sense of self preservation. I mean he has a prefectly good body. When Anders seemed resigned to his fate Justice should have just been like, "Not so fast, I'm jacking this body."

Well Justice comes out only when Anders has lost all control over himself right? Or when they are in ABSOLUTE unison, like wwhen he blows up the chantry. I think Anders believed he deserved to die so much he was way too resolute for Justice to take over. Or maybe they both thought he deserved to die... but that would be horribly unfair of Justice because he just gets to go back to the fade

[Miri1984]

@Dunziel You're missing my point. The bomb idea IS Justice's idea on the friendship part, but it is ALSO Anders' because the two of them are ONE. There's no blame to be placed on either side. They aren't separate. The idea comes from both of them.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

MorningBird wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

The men that attack you not 5 minutes after you arrive in Kirkwall? You remember them right? Probably not because I burned them into little crispy pieces right in front of the Gallows. Hawke really has no reason to be protected two years in. Seeing as how Meredith and the Templars had the city mages on lockdownwhen you arrive I don't see them giving on refugee special treatment. The whole time with Bethany or Carver you're being warned that mages are persecuted there. It another hole that is never explained. Hawke logically would have been arrested and your journey would end.

Ah, I know which group you mean now.

It could just be because the city guard and templars (as you find out) aren't exactly on friendly terms (due to the templars constantly undermining the authority of the guard.)

I can see why the city guard would decide to look the other way right after Hawke saved his life.  Aveline also chooses to look the other way, even when not at full friendship/rivalry, and when she is guard captain, despite being a lawful character, so it's certainly not unheard of.

That being said, I didn't see any templars in the Gallows courtyard or by the docks during that particular confrontation.  Just refugees (who were mostly by the docks), guardsmen (who have no allegience to the templars) and the one merchant who was allowed in to trade wears.  If the templars were around, they were probably inside to ensure that the mages didn't use the 'open gate' to the docks as a means to escape Kirkwall.

If they found out about an apostate mage running around afterwards, well, as Anders says, there's an entire host of refugees for them to blend in with.

Blending in is hard when all you can do is equip staffs and robes.XD

Seriously, everything is conjecture. The only facts we have are the one's the game has presented. In short, want to be accepted as a mage? Be a Bioware protagonist.

[Sjofn]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Sjofn wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Hmm.. I wonder why Justice doesn't have more of a sense of self preservation. I mean he has a prefectly good body. When Anders seemed resigned to his fate Justice should have just been like, "Not so fast, I'm jacking this body."

Because he thinks dying for what he just did is also just.

But he can do more if he sticks around.

Doesn't matter. Dying for it is Just. Therefore, Anders dies. Justice/Vengeance does not do nuance.

There's a banter Anders has with Isabella. It's along the lines of her pointing out innocents die in persuit of justice, so should someone die for them as well, for justice? Anders says yes.

[MorningBird]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Blending in is hard when all you can do is equip staffs and robes.XD

Seriously, everything is conjecture. The only facts we have are the one's the game has presented. In short, want to be accepted as a mage? Be a Bioware protagonist.

lol, well, considering no one actually DOES find out Hawke is a mage until it's too late, I'd say it's more than conjecture, but I do understand what you're saying.

It's just not something that really breaks my immersion? xD  So long as reasons do exist for why Hawke HASN'T been caught, I'm cool with it not being explicitly explained to me.

Though, that may just be because my mage play-through is still in act 1, and my Hawke is wearing pants, not robes. lol