57019 réponses à ce sujet

[Lady Dino]

Well Meric also led a revolution and he, as well as his mother before him, did a lot of running and hiding so maybe Anders'd be better at it then he thinks. =P

[LobselVith8]

I didn't kill Anders. The mages suffered for nearly a millennia under the Chantry until Anders acted, and now they broke free from the Chantry and it's Templars. Anders might have difficulty realizing if there's a diffence between him and Justice because it's entirely new territory for him, but he's always wanted to stop the oppression of his people. He's not some villain who wants to conquer the world, he wants to end the slavery of the mages that's gone on for countless centuries.

[Heldenbrand]

I can't say I'm a fangirl (or more accurately fanboy. What he did, in the opinion of my character was beyond redemption. He betrayed the Grey Wardens neutrality and in effect my Warden's trust. He took out his personal anger and vendetta upon the Kirkwall Circle, forcing other mages to fight for their very lives. I firmly believe that my Champion could have either mediated a solution between the mages and the Templars, or exposed the corruption of Meredith if she were pressed hard enough.

It was clear by my experience with the Circle in Ferelden, that by in large the treatment of the mages at Kirkwall was extreme. In Ferelden the Knight-Commander only issued the Annulment when the entire tower had fallen, he had no word from the First-Enchanter and all hope seemed lost. He was a hard man, but not without a sense of justice . Even Anders admittedly escaped time after time and was never forced to become Tranquil or killed.

He became an abomination in spirit by allowing the will of Justice to become corrupted into Vengeance. Even if his body didn't change, the ends do not justify the means. He could have chosen to obliterate the Templar headquarters, but he targeted the Chantry and the innocents within it. The fact that he deliberately chose that as a target, while playing upon my sense of compassion toward him in order to achieve his means was awful.

So, while my apostate mage merely banished him from my presence.. my rogue will be FAR less forgiving.

Modifié par Heldenbrand, 15 mars 2011 - 01:53 .

[panamakira]

So by the end Leliana and Cassandra said that the Champion disappeared, like the Warden but Varric claims Anders stayed with Hawke. So that means Anders should be by himself somewhere hiding, and Hawke and the Warden are hanging out in some "hall of heroes" with Flemeth?

Yeah.........Hawke's love life sucks. At least my queen Warden enjoyed Alistair for a good 6-8 years before she vanished. When he visits Kirkwall it should be about 6-7 years in the game, so that means the Warden and Hawke dissappeared sometime after that.

Modifié par panamakira, 15 mars 2011 - 01:57 .

[LupusYondergirl]

I didn't get the impression the Warden and Hawke were together. Just that neither of them could be found. Presumably they tried to find the Warden as well and failed at that, too.

[Sarah1281]

He betrayed the Grey Wardens neutrality and in effect my Warden's trust.

To be fair, Anders had left the order by that point. He no more violated GW neutrality than Alistair did by becoming king.

[Heldenbrand]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He betrayed the Grey Wardens neutrality and in effect my Warden's trust.

To be fair, Anders had left the order by that point. He no more violated GW neutrality than Alistair did by becoming king.

Conjecture would say you don't leave the Wardens.  You rescind your former loyalties to join them, for the same reason that my mage Warden in Origins was no longer a part of the Circle.  But I do see the point that Alistair as king violates that same neutrality; the only issue is that his violation of neutrality hasn't sparked a war that will kill countless.

[smuglobster]

Modifié par smuglobster, 15 mars 2011 - 06:56 .

[panamakira]

Did you guys read this from Jennifer? I thought it was pretty interesting she felt Anders wanted to become a martyr. Well a dead one. Hmm....i think this brings into life a lot of possibilites that Anders never really intended to love Hawke longer than necessary. I think she sacrifices way more for him and at the end I think he stil belives his cause is greater than her or her love. That's a rather unpleasant thought but I think it makes sense. Not to kill the romance for Anders but I don't think he loved Hawke enough. It's safe to say his cause for "justice" it's all that drives him by the end of the game.

Ouch.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

Modifié par panamakira, 15 mars 2011 - 02:21 .

[LupusYondergirl]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He betrayed the Grey Wardens neutrality and in effect my Warden's trust.

To be fair, Anders had left the order by that point. He no more violated GW neutrality than Alistair did by becoming king.

Agreed. And I LOVE the banner!

Modifié par LupusYondergirl, 15 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[Miri1984]

Sarah, I must steal your banner

[Sarah1281]

Heldenbrand wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

He betrayed the Grey Wardens neutrality and in effect my Warden's trust.

To be fair, Anders had left the order by that point. He no more violated GW neutrality than Alistair did by becoming king.

Conjecture would say you don't leave the Wardens.  You rescind your former loyalties to join them, for the same reason that my mage Warden in Origins was no longer a part of the Circle.  But I do see the point that Alistair as king violates that same neutrality; the only issue is that his violation of neutrality hasn't sparked a war that will kill countless.

Regardless of whether or not the Wardens actually agree to let you leave the order (Riordan doesn't seem to care if Alistair does but Anders makes it sound like it's easier said than done. Then again, he might just be referring to the fact that once he leaves he's an apostate again so...), the world at large will probably understand the concept of being an ex-Warden. The Wardens might or might not insist that if you're tainted, you're theirs but to the non-Wardens of the world if you say you aren't a Warden, if you don't fight the darkspawn, if you aren't working with Wardens, if you aren't in communication with Wardens, ect. then you are not a Warden.

Anders having once been a Warden is probably not going to cause problems for the GWs who are so committed to neutrality that they up and left in the middle of an invasion because it's not their problem.

[Mad-Max90]

What a pity...in my first playthrough I killed him, now people will only think of him as the monster he became, and I was a Mage. I wanted to kill him when he killed the little girl but I couldn't, plus when you hear Sebastien's voice after he destroys the chantry, he pulled some heartstrings while making perfect sense, and a monster needed to be put down.

[Heldenbrand]

Hard to say what the world at large will feel. They might not even know that Anders was a Warden, much less even care at this point.

When you become a Warden it isn't treated as a celebration or an escape; you are nearly mourned because you are given a death sentence to fight the Darkspawn. Anders shirked the responsibility of the Circle, he shirked the responsibility of the Wardens and now he lays the blame of the mage plight upon the Templars. They have their part to play in the blame for certain, but his actions only justify their fear of mages and the violent war to come whether for good or bad will add to the terror of the common man already have for these individuals.

[Sarah1281]

What responsibility of the Circle did Anders shirk? The responsibility of staying there? I don't think you can really say that all those who flee from a Circle are 'shirking their duty.'

Modifié par Sarah1281, 15 mars 2011 - 02:39 .

[Mad-Max90]

Everybody wants to be a martyr...Anders was a murderer and a terrorist, he was no longer a man, but a monster, his death did not help the Mage cause, he ruined it much like orsino did, that does not make them martyrs but suicidal terrorists. The only person who even came close to helping the Mage cause was Hawke (in my playthrough).

[maselphie]

Hmm. It's definitely not legal to leave the circle. Is it duty to obey laws? Anders doesn't seem to think so, lol.

[panamakira]

I hardly think what Anders did would benefit the cause but it most certainly created enough conflict to start a war. We'll see what happens though. I know my Warden wouldn't approve of his actions, even though my Hawke didn't either she let him live.

Like Jennifer said, "I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create."

I found it funny that most of the mages you encounter in the game are evil or corrupted save a really small minority. I think it's almost as if the game it's warning you against the power mages hold. I think Gaider has spoken many times about this issue and I always get the feeling he feels mages need to be watched.

[Raiil]

Anders didn't have a 'responsibility' to the Circle. He was forcibly placed in the Circle when he was almost a teenager, completely against his will. It's not like he signed up for the Army and then went AWOL when he found out he had to fight.

As for his responsibility to the Wardens, if I recall the short story that was put out, the Wardens accepted a templar in the ranks in order to keep an eye on Anders- which, considering that he helped saved Amaranthine, was an unnecessary and a betrayal of the Order's own code of conduct, in which even abominations are allowed, which I think Duncan explains at some point in the game, or Avernus. The Wardens betrayed him well before he did, if it is betrayal.

Anders didn't blame the templars. He blamed the Chantry, of which the templars are a big part of- hence why he chose to blow up a Revered Mother instead of, say, Meredith. The Chantry has maintained a tight grip on the Circles, and while you may get lucky and get a Ferelden circle, you may get unlucky and end up in a Kirkwall one. They force you to fight demons and kill you if they think you might be abominated with one- they can't even say for certain- during your Harrowing. They break Chantry law and tranquil full blown mages, and the Chantry itself does nothing to stop it- not even a smack on the hand. You hear stories about rape and abuse, and how often do you think the perpetrators are brought to justice? Hell, they're not even allowed to marry without permission. They're treated like lepers who might go crazy, and they're imprisoned as a result.

[Raiil]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Everybody wants to be a martyr...Anders was a murderer and a terrorist, he was no longer a man, but a monster, his death did not help the Mage cause, he ruined it much like orsino did, that does not make them martyrs but suicidal terrorists. The only person who even came close to helping the Mage cause was Hawke (in my playthrough).

Apparently his actions did, since mages left the circle due to his actions. That victory (if you call it that) is both Hawke and Anders. Anders started the fight, Hawke finished it. You won't have one without the other.

[Lady Dino]

panamakira wrote...

Did you guys read this from Jennifer? I thought it was pretty interesting she felt Anders wanted to become a martyr. Well a dead one. Hmm....i think this brings into life a lot of possibilites that Anders never really intended to love Hawke longer than necessary. I think she sacrifices way more for him and at the end I think he stil belives his cause is greater than her or her love. That's a rather unpleasant thought but I think it makes sense. Not to kill the romance for Anders but I don't think he loved Hawke enough. It's safe to say his cause for "justice" it's all that drives him by the end of the game.

Ouch.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

I did see that quote but I don't think Anders blowing up the Chantry, has anything to do with him not loving Hawke enough. He loved her as a man but as a mage possessed by the spirit of Justice he felt the need to fight for his beliefs. Even if it meant loosing her and his life. Quality not quantity, you might say.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Lady Dino wrote...

I did see that quote but I don't think Anders blowing up the Chantry, has anything to do with him not loving Hawke enough. He loved her as a man but as a mage possessed by the spirit of Justice he felt the need to fight for his beliefs. Even if it meant loosing her and his life. Quality not quantity, you might say.

I agree.  Anders tells Hawke in the friendship path romance, "You're the most important thing in my life.  But there are some things that are more important than my life."  Which I think pretty much sums up the friend romance to a T.  Anders loves Hawke with everything he is, but he can't put her or even himself above his cause.  

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

panamakira wrote...

Did you guys read this from Jennifer? I thought it was pretty interesting she felt Anders wanted to become a martyr.

It's obvious from his dialogue if you choose the right options. He says that if you kill him his name will live on and become a rallying point for oppressed mages. He makes it sound pretty obvious he expects to die, and expects his death will bring the revolution that the Revered Mother would not risk. Came across sounding like a huge ego trip, even if he wasn't all 'bwahahaha' about it. Personally I don't think Anders Anders wanted to die, but Justeance thought it would be appropriate.

Hmm....i think this brings into life a lot of possibilites that Anders never really intended to love Hawke longer than necessary.

What part about 'if you love me I'll only end up hurting you' didn't clue you in? ;D

Anyway...after I refused his final quest to sneak him into the Chantry I thought I'd diverted whatever idiotic scheme he'd come up with, but...I guess not. Anders, you're insane. I was playing a fem!hawke that had him fully friended but not romanced and refused to be emotionally blackmailed into helping him blindly. Didn't romance him because he followed up his first flirt line with the 'I will hurt you' comment, which Hawke took seriously and so never took the chance to flirt with him ever again.

And after his 'big moment' was bloody glad I wasn't romancing him. Reasons be damned...for all his babble about the atrocities of evil mages smearing the good ones, he's no better than them in the end. I didn't spare him and side with the mages because I agree with him (which is what he seemed to think in his finale dialogue), but to protect my sister and because I didn't condone the Templars slaughtering his kind for HIS offense.

If there was an option to tell him he'd be executed for his crimes after the crisis, that would have been nice.

[Mad-Max90]

The chantry remained neutral out of fear of the repercussions it would have with the Templars/mages. Last time I played the chantry had a very small part in what happens between the Templars and the mages because the Templars were out of the chantry's control, making an out right attack on the helpless women and men at the chantry is an act of terror by the mages on the wrong group, he had to be put down like a dog

[Thiefy]

Well Anders DID warn you that "he would break your heart".