57019 réponses à ce sujet

[panamakira]

Lady Dino wrote...

I did see that quote but I don't think Anders blowing up the Chantry, has anything to do with him not loving Hawke enough. He loved her as a man but as a mage possessed by the spirit of Justice he felt the need to fight for his beliefs. Even if it meant loosing her and his life. Quality not quantity, you might say.

Sorry but the moment he considers his act of "justice" greater than me or my love for him, I'm going to have a problem. I can't blame him much since he's already at the point of no return with Justice inside of him, but I think we all need to realize that his priorities were never with Hawke and will probably not be. At the end, she sacrifices everything for him out of love and he sacrifices their love for his cause by lying and blowing up chantries, throwing her in the middle of it.

He mentioned a few times he doesn't know where Jutice begins or he ends, therefore that separation between the two is no longer possible. The man and the mage are one and the same. He says as much at the beginning and at the end. How much Justice is part of him. Given his actions we all know where his priorities lie. I think that's already something that's part of his character and that Hawke should accept when in love with him.

Modifié par panamakira, 15 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Well Anders DID warn you that "he would break your heart".

Yep.  So did Morrigan.  And Wynne warns you about Alistair.  Every time a romance has epic badness potential, the game warns us, and a bunch of us go plowing on ahead anyway 

[maselphie]

Condemning all of a certain kind of people to something for the actions of a few isn't fun for anyone. Both sides fear each other, and for good reason. Sometimes it must be done for sake of safety, but for the best it should be temporary (Japanese internment). If DA2 showed us anything, it's that neither side is right. DA:O attempted to brush on this topic with the Circle ordeal, but it just seemed like ONE bad egg, but Kirkwall proves that blood magic and abominations are just a stone's throw away for every last one of them. The war should be against the Fade, not just the people who were born with a sense of it. The thing is, crime is always going to happen. Just like there are going to be thugs and raiders until the end of time, so, too will there be blood mages. Punish those who are, and not those who aren't. That's why not everyone is treated like a criminal on sight.

However, this is a medieval-esque world, where things they don't understand confuse and frighten them to extreme proportions. If Thedas does one day come to peace with mages (disbanding Templars all together), it will be because they've become truly enlightened. I fear that those kinds of changes take hundreds of years. But what Bioware is hinting at is that it will come within a matter of years. So we are at the brink of that enlightenment.

Those who are ahead of their time are often considered evils, until the future, when we read about their deeds today.

[leggywillow]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Well Anders DID warn you that "he would break your heart".

He did indeed.  Quite a bit of heavy foreshadowing, actually.

Anders: I'm warning you: I'll break your heart
Hawke: You've said that before.
Anders: I'll explode it into pieces, as it were.
Hawke: ... okay
Anders: It'll be like a bomb was dropped on it.
Hawke: ... right.
Anders: Like a righteous bomb of justice dropped on a crumbling piece of a flawed system
Hawke: ::sigh::

[Mad-Max90]

Actually my hawke was fighting for Mage freedom fine untill Anders kept mucking it up, so I think I can speak for myself when I say Anders only ruined my Hawke's first attempt at Mage freedom, he only reiterated the Templar beliefs therefore not becoming a martyr, well not a good one, but becoming a monster, and making the already harsh lives of mages just a little bit harsher in the process, so at best Anders was a saboteur of his own cause, thank you for your input though.

[panamakira]

@leggywillow

LOL. Yeah really, when the Chantry exploded I should have felt flattered. He put up such a show to let me know it was over between the two.

[leggywillow]

panamakira wrote...

@leggywillow

LOL. Yeah really, when the Chantry exploded I should have felt flattered. He put up such a show to let me know it was over between the two.

Hey, it's not over between him and my Hawke!  XD  Hawke is a very stubborn woman; it takes more than massive acts of terrorism to get her to give up on a relationship.  LOL.

[Jean]

panamakira wrote...

Did you guys read this from Jennifer? I thought it was pretty interesting she felt Anders wanted to become a martyr. Well a dead one. Hmm....i think this brings into life a lot of possibilites that Anders never really intended to love Hawke longer than necessary. I think she sacrifices way more for him and at the end I think he stil belives his cause is greater than her or her love. That's a rather unpleasant thought but I think it makes sense. Not to kill the romance for Anders but I don't think he loved Hawke enough. It's safe to say his cause for "justice" it's all that drives him by the end of the game.

Ouch.

Jennifer Brandes Hepler wrote...

I love the range of responses everyone has to Anders's actions. We really wanted to create a situation without a clear-cut right and wrong. I wrote Anders, Sebastian, Bethany, Leandra, Elthina and Cullen, so I've certainly seen every side of the argument. Personally, my view of it is that Anders wants to blow up the Chantry AND wants to die for it -- that way he gets the revolution he/Justice believes is necessary, but still gives justice to those who died in the Chantry. Though I like the poetic justice of forcing him to live in the world his actions create.

Anders: There is justice in the world.

Isabela: Is there? You want to free the mages. Let's say you do, but to get there, you kill a bunch of innocent people.
What about them? Don't they then deserve justice?

Anders: Yes.

Isabela: And then what? Where does it end? It's like a bar brawl. People are continuously pulled into the fray, and nobody remembers why it started. Justice is an idea. It makes sense in the world of ideas, but not in our world.

Modifié par Batteries, 15 mars 2011 - 03:10 .

[Thiefy]

It's almost like the Cousland origins with Fergus/Oren dialouge.
"Don't worry son, you'll see a sword soon enough!"

[Mad-Max90]

I wanted to give the honors of killing Anders to Sebastien for Anders basically killing his mother figure.

[Sarah1281]

panamakira wrote...

@leggywillow

LOL. Yeah really, when the Chantry exploded I should have felt flattered. He put up such a show to let me know it was over between the two.

Meredith: Maker, have mercy...
Anders: There can be no peace.
Orsino: Why? Why would you do such a thing.
Hawke: So...is this your way of breaking up with me? And I thought my cousin had it bad when her boyfriend dumped her in front of everyone...

[Miri1984]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

Actually my hawke was fighting for Mage freedom fine untill Anders kept mucking it up, so I think I can speak for myself when I say Anders only ruined my Hawke's first attempt at Mage freedom, he only reiterated the Templar beliefs therefore not becoming a martyr, well not a good one, but becoming a monster, and making the already harsh lives of mages just a little bit harsher in the process, so at best Anders was a saboteur of his own cause, thank you for your input though.

How did he muck it up? Apart from the endgame thing, any way. He never hesitates to kill maleficar with you, he only objects if you try to send mages who AREN'T to the Tower. He despises blood magic - he's absolutely HORRIBLE to Merrill (seriously, Anders, how COULD you? It's like kicking a puppy!) and he doesn't slaughter Templars on sight. He even helps you HELP the Templars on occasion, and he also suggests going to the Knight Commander at one point. He honestly hopes, right up to Act 3 I think, that there might possibly be a peaceful solution, and he's very willing to help you try to find it. 

In the end, though, there just isn't one.

[Sable Rhapsody]

leggywillow wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Well Anders DID warn you that "he would break your heart".

He did indeed.  Quite a bit of heavy foreshadowing, actually.

Anders: I'm warning you: I'll break your heart
Hawke: You've said that before.
Anders: I'll explode it into pieces, as it were.
Hawke: ... okay
Anders: It'll be like a bomb was dropped on it.
Hawke: ... right.
Anders: Like a righteous bomb of justice dropped on a crumbling piece of a flawed system
Hawke: ::sigh::

My Hawke just shook her head at him and told him she was a big girl who didn't need coddling.  THAT ENDED WELL <_<

[VampOrchid]

To me this whole story makes sense. If we take Hitler as an example. Lets says he had won, and his rule had lasted. And anyone not fitting his 'perfect' description of existence were to be enslaved. Someone would eventually have done, or do something drastic to change the way things were or are going, depending on how long that type of tirany would have lasted.

No one saying the way that person would have gone about it would have been right, but it would have started the beginning of a change. Wether the starting of the change would have been good or bad. Things would have changed.

I think that's why, in a way, I respect Anders character. Because he's willing to take measures to save countless lives in the future. It wasn't the best way, but really in the end, maybe it's the only one.

I'm not saying full blown terrorism in a day an age like today would solve anything. But just think for a minute, what if ww2 would have turned out different. Would one of us not have done something, simular, to comence a change?

[maselphie]

Now, now. Hitler is not the Chantry. Jews are the same as those who were not persecuted. Mages are very clearly different, and very clearly dangerous. Not all of them, and the measures used to protect them and us is flawed, but it's no holocaust.

[Mad-Max90]

How did he muck it up, hmmm by slaughtering at least one innocent Mage and a chantry full of brothers/sisters and even some mages, that's not mucking things up in your eyes. You must be a very forgiving person to not think that all of his actions might hinder your plans, Merrill might have been a blood Mage but she was no monster, Anders was just a pretty abomination.

[Sarah1281]

How do we know Anders killed at least one innocent mage? Are you referring to the girl he went after during the 'Tranquil Solution' thing? He can be calmed down from that.

[Mad-Max90]

Sebastien says something along the lines of mages also being in the chantry, so yes the girl is possible and so are the mages in the chantry.

[maselphie]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

How did he muck it up, hmmm by slaughtering at least one innocent Mage and a chantry full of brothers/sisters and even some mages, that's not mucking things up in your eyes. You must be a very forgiving person to not think that all of his actions might hinder your plans, Merrill might have been a blood Mage but she was no monster, Anders was just a pretty abomination.

I wonder. Would Anders have blown up the chantry without Justice? Probably not. But if he did, then he really didn't do it because he was a mage and this proves mages suck -- just that Anders is a zealot. Did everyone know that he was possessed? I mean, does everyone know glowing means you're possessed? Fenris glows sometimes. Meredith might have been too hasty to anullment.

Modifié par maselphie, 15 mars 2011 - 03:34 .

[Raiil]

I have my doubts that Anders would have blown up a chantry. Although blowing a templar hall, that I could see him doing, without Justice. Or maybe just making their lives a merry hell- itching powders in boots, constipation aids in their water supply... that's Awakenings!Anders m.o.

I hesitate at calling Anders a monster because of what it took to get him there. The man who was abusing and killing elven children might be more that. Anders was bent by years of running and imprisonment, and then broken by Justice/Vengeance. If he's a monster, he's one that was created by a machine that proclaimed to save him.

[Mad-Max90]

I never said mages suck I fought to protect them, all he did was condemn them in the eyes of everybody else, there in fact hindering the plight of mages and instead making them all look just as bad as him, he certainly did not help them is all I'm saying, my hawke tried but only time will tell. Plus the fact is Anders did allow justice in, but justice quickly became vengeance, and we all know ideals shouldnt become living flesh, cough *abomination* cough

[Mad-Max90]

I have no problem calling Anders out or for that matter Orsino, they were both driven mad by their ideals that they both became monsters, Merrideth on the other hand is a bit harder since the whole evil artifact thing, but Orsino just became the physical being of his ideal, whereas Anders remained pretty much the same looking yet he was every bit as grotesque as Orisino was

[Miri1984]

@ Mad-Max90 By the time he blows up the Chantry he's beyond the point of trying to prove mages can be trusted - he pretty much says that to you - they're never going to be trusted. What he wants is open war. And that's what he gets.

[Raiil]

all he did was condemn them in the eyes of everybody else

Which may or may not be true. There are people who find mages, and magic, to be disgusting. And there are family members, lovers, friends, anti-Chantry people, who will sympathise with them.


I think one of the reasons why the Circle in Kirkwall plays out much differently than in Ferelden is proximity. Ferelden is a big country and the mages are in somewhat of a rural area, cut off from the major cities- they're at least a day away, by boat, from Redcliffe. In Kirkwall, they're in the middle of the city, and they seem to wander a bit, since there doesn't seem to be any restrictions for traders in the Gallows. It's different when your wee little girl that you love more than anything is just on the other side of town than it is if they're on the other side of the country. I feel that you see a lot more pro-Mage sentiment simply because you're more likely to be close to family. So depending on where you live, YMMV. Kirkwall has a problem with the templars being in ~control~ more than other places. If there are other Kirkwallian areas, you may find a lot more sympathy.

[maselphie]

Mad-Max90 wrote...

I never said mages suck

Not what I was saying, sorry.

I was saying ... Anders blowing up the Chantry, does it really confirm all their fears about mages? Now that I look at it, it seemed more like an excuse than proper reason to kill all mages. "A mage stole a loaf of bread! All mages go to jail!" Stealing wasn't necessarily a mage thing, it just happened to be a mage that did it. However, we know that Anders did it highly under Justice's influence, which does confirm their fears. But did Meredith honestly know that when she ordered the right of anullment? Being a Templar, but she probably would, but it was a rash decision without all the facts.