57019 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

Did everyone know that he was possessed? I mean, does everyone know glowing means you're possessed? Fenris glows sometimes. Meredith might have been too hasty to anullment.

Knowledge of his possession might actually make matters worse. Before Anders blew up the Chantry (looking pretty normal and not-possessed as he did so), he didn't look like an abomination. He looked like a normal - if freedom-obsessed - mage. People would wonder how long he was possessed. It could have been years (and it was). And even if they assumed it was a recent thing, Anders looked so normal for most of the time. Would this clear proof that anyone can be an abomination even if they show no signs really help the mages in the slightest?

[maselphie]

That's true. That's the first thing that popped into my head: you're proving their point ten times over, Anders. You act like the best guy in the world, one that people think could do no harm, and then you do the most harm.

[Sarah1281]

maselphie wrote...

Mad-Max90 wrote...

I never said mages suck

Not what I was saying, sorry.

I was saying ... Anders blowing up the Chantry, does it really confirm all their fears about mages? Now that I look at it, it seemed more like an excuse than proper reason to kill all mages. "A mage stole a loaf of bread! All mages go to jail!" Stealing wasn't necessarily a mage thing, it just happened to be a mage that did it. However, we know that Anders did it highly under Justice's influence, which does confirm their fears. But did Meredith honestly know that when she ordered the right of anullment? Being a Templar, but she probably would, but it was a rash decision without all the facts.

To begin with, the crime committed was far worse than stealing a freaking loaf of bread. The guards might not have even bothered with such a crime. And it wasn't a case of everything being fine and then out of nowhere, someone committed a horrendous crime and now Meredith seeks to victimize all of the perfectly innocent members of a subgroup that the perpetrator belongs to.

The mages were already getting more and more difficult to control and Meredith was probably aware that some of her own templars were willing to work with the mages. Meredith and Orsino were just arguing about what Meredith saw as him being strangely reluctant for her to search for blood magic because if he and his Circle were innocent than what have they to hide? I can see why he'd protest anyway (even though many of them weren't innocent) but she saw it as getting in the way of her job.

And finally, this is clearly a politically motivated crime. Anders outright tells Meredith and everyone there that he's doing this to advance the mage cause. I can kind of see why Meredith connects the other mages to this even though the idol is clearly driving her to extremes.

[crotti]

I still like Anders after all this - and I don't think I'll ever kill him in one of my playthroughs XD (just like every other character I like)

Why do so many people hate Anders? Do they hate Andraste as well? She started a war - and don't tell me she picked flowers and overpowered her enemies with her rosy scent.

For some reason I get headaches everytime I think about Anders. I have no idea why X_x While I know that I will never hate him, I have no idea if I would like him as much as I do without the story I'm coming up with (I'll draw a comic to prove myself that Anders' only purpose in the game isn't just to blow up the Chantry XD He does care about different things, right? T_T Now that I think about it, I have to finish the "Healer's Hands" picture... argh..)
I just want to know if BioWare wanted him to be "evil"... I mean... I sometimes got the feeling that they didn't care for him as much as they did for the others (Fenris, Merrill and so on)... Did they want to show us that Anders is an idiot - or ... I'm just going to draw what I think is right.

[Mad-Max90]

That's his belief not everyone else's, there were plenty of people trying to keep the peace before the Anders reared around and obliterated an innocent faction, yes they are innocent although the the Templars follow them, the chantry did no harm to the mages and the game even slaps you in the face with the chantry is neutral thing pretty often, so no sympathy for Anders in my book, Sebastien on the other hand can't catch a break in this world

[Qeilla]

*breaks through the seriousness*

I come bearing a .gif!

Modifié par Qeilla, 15 mars 2011 - 04:04 .

[Sarah1281]

Why do so many people hate Anders? Do they hate Andraste as well? She started a war - and don't tell me she picked flowers and overpowered her enemies with her rosy scent.

What happened with Andraste happened centuries ago. It's ancient history and the Chantry's propoganda as well as rumors you hear of what the Tevinter Imperium is like even now makes her attempt to crush it seem justified. Who knows? In the distant future what Anders did could be widely seen as necessary and justified as well. Even if Andraste blew up hundreds of their civilian-filled buildings, no one of us had to stand by and watch it happen because Andraste didn't want there to be any attempts at compromise.

[Thiefy]

Anders never justified what he did. He knew it was wrong, admits it, and still carries it out.

He did it to bring attention to the plight of the mages. Nothing else measures up to that. Nothing. Not innocent lives being lost, not his own life, and not even Hawke's love.

To him, it wasn't about "what was right" but "what had to be done."

[maselphie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

To begin with, the crime committed was far worse than stealing a freaking loaf of bread. 

And genocide is far worse than jail! It was an example of the assumption of [something a mage did] to [something mages do]. This is all hypothetical philosophizing, no need to argue that with me.

But yes, Anders does outright say "this is for the mages!" and then does something unforgivable. But a non-mage could have just as easily done that, too. I can see both sides of the coin, frankly.

Modifié par maselphie, 15 mars 2011 - 04:08 .

[nenosronhir]

Oh fhdasjkfhdjkls balls. See below, I hit quote instead of edit. D:

Modifié par nenosronhir, 15 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[nenosronhir]

Valentia X wrote...
Anders didn't have a 'responsibility' to the Circle. He was forcibly placed in the Circle when he was almost a teenager, completely against his will. It's not like he signed up for the Army and then went AWOL when he found out he had to fight.

As for his responsibility to the Wardens, if I recall the short story that was put out, the Wardens accepted a templar in the ranks in order to keep an eye on Anders- which, considering that he helped saved Amaranthine, was an unnecessary and a betrayal of the Order's own code of conduct, in which even abominations are allowed, which I think Duncan explains at some point in the game, or Avernus. The Wardens betrayed him well before he did, if it is betrayal.

An interesting note about Anders' opinion of the Wardens; he's convinced that they ARE going to come hunting him one day, and that either them, or the Circle will take him back. He mentions it in the conversation you can have with him before deciding whether or not Bethany/Carver should be made Grey Wardens (possibly specifically Bethany, I don't remember it when I went through with Carver). So perhaps they do hunt down their own?

Anders didn't blame the templars. He blamed the Chantry, of which the templars are a big part of- hence why he chose to blow up a Revered Mother instead of, say, Meredith. The Chantry has maintained a tight grip on the Circles, and while you may get lucky and get a Ferelden circle, you may get unlucky and end up in a Kirkwall one. They force you to fight demons and kill you if they think you might be abominated with one- they can't even say for certain- during your Harrowing. They break Chantry law and tranquil full blown mages, and the Chantry itself does nothing to stop it- not even a smack on the hand. You hear stories about rape and abuse, and how often do you think the perpetrators are brought to justice? Hell, they're not even allowed to marry without permission. They're treated like lepers who might go crazy, and they're imprisoned as a result.

Mmm. His hate for Templars in specific is fairly clear in any rendition of his character (between Awakening and DA2). He couldn't realistically blow up Meredith because that would involve blowing up the Gallows. He couldn't kill Meredith on his own because that wouldn't make the point he needs to inspire the rest of the Circles; much like Sebastian chooses not to fight Hawke in the end because his death there would do no good, Anders' death would be anonymous and just another apostate/maleficar rebelling unsuccessfully against the Templars.

The Templar order seems to govern itself. Ultimately they answer to a Grand Cleric, perhaps, but how often to we hear of them even being consulted? Elthina's name was not directly attached to Meredith's actions, only in the sense that she did nothing to stop her (which is as good as condoning the actions, imo, and seems to be the consensus of the general populace if you've read the Codex entries).

Destroying the Chantry and Elthina is the last option open because all other paths are tied. For having gone on as long as it did, compromise would never have been enough to repair the damage already done - compromise would not have been justice.

Edit: Clarifying my usage of the word justice here (before someone jumps on me XD) as I don't think his actions are just, but I think Vengeance would have seen in that way, and going with the assumption that Anders has at least partially accepted Vengeance/his reasoning, "justice" made the most sense. Also not assuming that he thinks it's right either, I did read Hepler's little blurb about him wanting to die for it, which would also be "justice" to him at that point (and Vengeance might agree).

Modifié par nenosronhir, 15 mars 2011 - 04:23 .

[maselphie]

Qeilla wrote...

*breaks through the seriousness*

I come bearing a .gif!

You win this page, Qeilla. You win.

[leggywillow]

Qeilla wrote...

*breaks through the seriousness*

I come bearing a .gif!

:wub: SQUEE!

I love this kiss so much.  It's been ripped apart on some other threads for the panting being all loud and gross, but the amount of desire in that kiss is just so... GAH.  I love it SO MUCH.  It easily beats out Fenris's glowy wall kiss for me (probably because at least the Anders animations work correctly, while Fenris's is all wonky for me... kinda ruins it. <_<)

The sheer sexiness of Anders sadly gives him a lot of brownie points when making my game decisions.    (I swear I'm not this shallow in real life.)

Orsino: WTF why did you do that?!
Sebastian: ANDERS MUST BE PUNISHED!
Meredith: That's it!  You must make a decision, Champion!
Hawke: ...........
Meredith: Champion? Hello? Decision time?
Hawke: ...........
Varric: ::snaps fingers in front of Hawke's face::  You're staring at Blondie's ass again.
Hawke: Huh? Oh, oh yeah.  Right.  Mages.  Templars.  Cool.

[Mad-Max90]

Not all other paths are tied if he would have just sat in the backseat like
The rest of the guys and let hawke deal with the problem maturely, the same message would still apply just without the childish act of mass destruction.

[Sarah1281]

He couldn't realistically blow up Meredith because that would involve blowing up the Gallows.

Sure he could have. Had he waited two minutes or so until he saw her walking into the Chantry he would have managed both. The only concern he might have had would be keeping Hawke outside of the building which might have been tricky.

[Raiil]

 

Mmm. His hate for Templars in specific is fairly clear in any rendition of his character (between Awakening and DA2). He couldn't realistically blow up Meredith because that would involve blowing up the Gallows. He couldn't kill Meredith on his own because that wouldn't make the point he needs to inspire the rest of the Circles; much like Sebastian chooses not to fight Hawke in the end because his death there would do no good, Anders' death would be anonymous and just another apostate/maleficar rebelling unsuccessfully against the Templars.

The Templar order seems to govern itself. Ultimately they answer to a Grand Cleric, perhaps, but how often to we hear of them even being consulted? Elthina's name was not directly attached to Meredith's actions, only in the sense that she did nothing to stop her (which is as good as condoning the actions, imo, and seems to be the consensus of the general populace if you've read the Codex entries).

Destroying the Chantry and Elthina is the last option open because all other paths are tied. For having gone on as long as it did, compromise would never have been enough to repair the damage already done - compromise would not have been justice.

I think part of the quibble we'll have (editorial we, not you and I in particular ) is how much the Chantry does oversee the Templars. I'm taking what Alistair tells you when you say that it seems like the templars could run the Chantry into the conversation- I read/heard the implication that the Chantry does have a lot of oversight. Don't they generally need to have permission, for example, for the Rite of Annulment? Greagoir specifically states he has asked for it, and I think there's a letter or a codex or something where Meredith says she's sent word to Val Royeaux for permission.

It may also be a matter of power versus influence, and how the clerics in an area choose to intervene. The fact that everyone looks to Elthina to intervene says, to me, that she has a great deal of power or influence (or both) over what will happen.

[nenosronhir]

Sarah1281 wrote...

He couldn't realistically blow up Meredith because that would involve blowing up the Gallows.

Sure he could have. Had he waited two minutes or so until he saw her walking into the Chantry he would have managed both. The only concern he might have had would be keeping Hawke outside of the building which might have been tricky.

And Orsino. XD But again, the choice to destroy the Chantry wasn't only to kill Meredith at this point, it was to instigate the war to end the imprisonment of mages, and he needed to provoke her to take drastic action so the mages could justify fighting back.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

leggywillow wrote...

I love this kiss so much.  It's been ripped apart on some other threads for the panting being all loud and gross, but the amount of desire in that kiss is just so... GAH.  I love it SO MUCH. 

Wait, what?! Are people actually complaining about any aspect of Hawke getting a faceful of desperate man?

I will never understand this forum.

[Mad-Max90]

Well in the end we got to end it how you guys ended it is pretty much the same as I did, killed all the leaders, what was I saying earlier, hawke can't catch a break no matter who you choose to help they end up being a monster and turn on you

[mellifera]

Pseudocognition wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

I love this kiss so much.  It's been ripped apart on some other threads for the panting being all loud and gross[/b], but the amount of desire in that kiss is just so... GAH.  I love it SO MUCH. 

Wait, what?![/i] Are people actually complaining about any aspect of Hawke getting a faceful of desperate man?

I will never understand this forum.

Lol, well, when you've been ~aching~ for someone for years... I guess it kinda gets the better of you?

[maselphie]

The sound ... is the best part ... D:

[Miri1984]

He really doesn't WANT to blow up Meredith. People at this stage aren't going to be upset about that - she's a monster, it's all but proven before the end of the game. Anders needs there to be public outcry, for that he needs a victim like the Grand Cleric, who is a focus of love and a centre of the religion that has allowed and encouraged the oppression of mages for centuries.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

maselphie wrote...

The sound ... is the best part ... D:

IKR. Unfortunately I can't help but imagine a voice actor in a tiny padded room with a director and bunch of guys with sound equipment watching him moan into a microphone through a little window. It um. Takes you out of it a little.

Most of the time I can ignore what I know of behind the scenes but man in a box making noises always strikes me as funny...

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 15 mars 2011 - 05:58 .

[mellifera]

Pseudocognition wrote...

maselphie wrote...

The sound ... is the best part ... D:

IKR. Unfortunately I can't help but imagine a voice actor in a tiny padded room with a director and bunch of guys with sound equipment watching him moan into a microphone through a little window. It um. Takes you out of it a little.

...yeah.

Hahaha, yeah. That's the part that takes me out of it, then again I think about that for all the battle grunts and other sexy noises ._.

[leggywillow]

Pseudocognition wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

I love this kiss so much.  It's been ripped apart on some other threads for the panting being all loud and gross, but the amount of desire in that kiss is just so... GAH.  I love it SO MUCH. 

Wait, what?! Are people actually complaining about any aspect of Hawke getting a faceful of desperate man?

I will never understand this forum.

I noticed a few people on the Fenris thread talking about it when I was desperately trying to get my glowy kiss to work right.  XD

I'm sensing future tensions between Fenris and Anders fans like there never was between the Zevran and Alistair fans.  Sure, Zev and Alistair didn't like each other much, but the sheer amount of vitriol and utter hatred between Fenris and Anders is something else.  I am predicting a fangirl war in the future.  It will be fought in passive-aggressive battles across all threads, mark my words.

I like both romances, but Anders wins for me.  I honestly wish it didn't, since it's so heartbreaking and I feel so guilty for supporting him in the end.